What is a flock of Mary Sues called?

[pink_silk_glove]

My guy too, but his tastes seem to align with mine, so I'll forgive him. If only he would write more redheads...

You could read my Pastel story and I'm sure that it would cure you of redhead fever. : P

 

[StillStunned]

You could read my Pastel story and I'm sure that it would cure you of redhead fever. : P

My case is terminal, I'm afraid happy to say.

 

[AchtungNight]

 

[MillieDynamite]

My sister is a redhead, and that doesn't bode well if she is the norm for the species.

You could read my Pastel story and I'm sure that it would cure you of redhead fever. : P

 

[TarnishedPenny]

For no compelling reason, beyond that much awesomeness packed into a small place, I’d propose that it might be a Parthenon of Mary Sues.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

A dollhouse of Mary Sues.

 

[yowser]

A Courtroom of Mary Sues.

 

[intim8]

A Courtroom of Mary Sues.

I think you are confusing mary sues with karens.

 

[TheLobster]

I think you are confusing mary sues with karens.

He does raise an important question, though: whom does Mary sue?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

We had a discussion one time: what would the collective noun for goths be?

A plague of goths.
An anathema of goths.
(my fave -> ) A cathedral of goths.

 

[yowser]

We had a discussion one time: what would the collective noun for goths be?

A plague of goths.
An anathema of goths.
(my fave -> ) A cathedral of goths.

Goth Bedamned.

 

[lovecraft68]

The term Mary Sue, at least these days has seemed to be a term aimed specifically at female characters (Galadriel from the awful rings of power, prime example)

But the funny thing is, no male character who is perfect is seen in the negative light. I grew up with all the 80's action films that left reality so far behind you can't see it in a rear view mirror and that was okay. A female character wins a fight and you can hear the man babies squealing a mile away.

So on You tube there's this toxic meathead who is big with incels and all the ists, and he spent five minutes opening a video about the 80's movies I just mentioned and how outrageous they were, no reality, but you enjoyed them by just rolling with them. Sure, I get that. Then proceeded to squeal about Megan Fox throwing a few kicks in the latest Expendables shitfest.

Having said that, I had a conversation with someone a few months back about who is the ultimate Mary Sue including Male/Female characters. He initially disagreed with my answer, but after a few minutes saw my point

Legolas Lord of the Rings. Think on it if you've seen the movies. The deleted scenes are even worse.

I admit his pick of Steven Seagal was worthy, but he's such a despicable POS in real life, that its no fun to mock his movies.

 

[lovecraft68]

We had a discussion one time: what would the collective noun for goths be?

A plague of goths.
An anathema of goths.
(my fave -> ) A cathedral of goths.

I would let them borrow from the Crows. A murder of goths.

 

[gunhilltrain]

what, like Stepford Wives?

@intim8:

I've never heard the term, but one definition is, "A Mary Sue is an original character and has no flaws. Of course the author of this will say 'they are clumsy' or 'they are not very good at maths' or whatever. They will most probably have a power or an evil twin/dark side."

I like the evil twin/dark side idea, but I guess you don't have that in your 300 K words. (That is a lot to write.) That could be where it all leads to if you wish. For some reason I posted elsewhere that Samantha on Bewitched (God, am I old) was a "Mary Sue" with an alter ego in the form of her cousin Serena (dark-haired and also played by Elizabeth Montgomery). We were speculating on the erotic possibilities of that outside of network TV. Serena had the power to give herself blonde hair and look like, although not act like, her cousin. Great acting to play both, by the way.

Any clues there?

https://res.cloudinary.com/jerrick/...jpg,q_auto,w_720/6065bfbea30cae001d8f33c6.jpg

 

[Bramblethorn]

I was exaggerating a litle to be self-deprecating, because I'm not trying to sell the idea, I'm trying to see if it stands up to critique, at least in my own head. They're all different, but they're all too smart and competent.

"Smart and competent" doesn't have to be a bad thing, as long as those characters have meaningful challenges to deal with. Take a show like Leverage: all the main characters are absurdly good at what they do and that doesn't get in the way of the fun at all, because they have distinct personalities and the storylines challenge them in areas that aren't their strengths.

"Mary Sue" used to be a specifically fanfic term, involving an author self-insert character who was excessively praised/validated by the canon characters and marked out as Special in all sorts of ways - "this is FancyElfName, she's an elf who's more beautiful even than Arwen, with violet eyes and a birthmark shaped like a mallorn leaf and a horse that only she can ride" etc. etc.

Outside of fanfic it's rather vaguely defined. People will use it for just about any character who's supposed to be likeable and competent in-universe, if they don't like the character, and especially if that character is female. But a rough definition might involve a character who has a lot of these traits:

- Is marked out as being special, destined for greatness (e.g. by a prophecy)
- Naturally talented at something important
- Physically distinctive features
- Affinity for animals
- Famous yet humble
- Gets a lot of validation and personal attention from important characters in the setting
- But mistreated by authority figures, to set them up as more of a martyr
- Orphaned or similar - gives them an exciting tragic backstory and saves the complexity of writing family ties to people who are unlikely to exalt them

Plenty of very successful books have protagonists who'd score highly on that list. One of the most successful series of the last few decades ticks off every one of those boxes. Whether it's bad writing is a subjective question, but clearly it doesn't have to be bad for one's readership.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I just re-read a nearly complete story I had written years ago, before I even had an account on Lit. 300K words purely pantsed, then set aside because I thought it was meandering to much.

What I want to know is, how on earth did you get to 300k words before you thought, "You know what, this might not good enough to publish."?

I'm not sure Mary Sues are your problem, frankly. If it wasn't good enough to publish back then, why is it suddenly good enough now? It's still the same story. That's the strangest thing I've seen in a long time, writerly wise.

Good luck getting out of your dilemma!

 

[samhasstories]

I'd call a group of Mary Sues a "rough draft."

 

[intim8]

Take a show like Leverage

That's a good point. These kids don't have specific skills like that, more like exceptional intelligence and qualities like honesty. They come to it in different ways - one, it's just a family ingrained principle, another has a disgusting white trash whore of a mother and wants to be the opposite of her in every way - but in large part, they come together because of these shared propensities. Then, as they interact on this project, some of them discover talents that are undeveloped but still there and useful.

But the point stands. "Leverage" was beleivable because those skills are why they are all there, not coincidence.

 

[Rob_Royale]

To reach 300k words, at some point you had to be very passionate about the project. It seems a massive waste throw that away.

Either post it as-is or fix it a little at a time. As for the unbelievability issue, Perhaps set it somewhere that is by nature unbelievable, like a space station or fantasy world. The Mary Jane thing, is very fixable.

 

[intim8]

What I want to know is, how on earth did you get to 300k words before you thought, "You know what, this might not good enough to publish."?

This was probably two years before I had a Lit account, or even considered getting one. Nowhere to publish. The bigger question is why did I stop at 300K? Because I'd blown my load, basically (and metaphorically).

I used to just write this stuff in my spare time because I enjoyed it, no other reason.

I'm not sure Mary Sues are your problem, frankly. If it wasn't good enough to publish back then, why is it suddenly good enough now?

As is, it isn't. But it has all but one or two of the elements of a really good story. In particular the characters, and their 'project". And their sex is great. Just needs that small bit of conflict that was introduced early to escalate and carry through. And of course to fix numerous technical flaws.

That's the strangest thing I've seen in a long time, writerly wise.

Yeah, probably because of the pantsing thing. None of it was planned out, it just came off the top of my head as it went. And because it never was intended for publication. Once I'd got to the point of stopping (which turns out to be a big grand denouement ending afterall), there was no point in refining it, the whole point of it, then, was just to write it. Kind of like enjoying reading a book, except I was making it up as I read it.

I'm even surprised at how coherent it is, but of course it is full of typos, grammar mistakes, mismatched pronouns, wrong punctuation, placeholders, tired and cringy cliches, awkward sentence and paragraph structure, repitition, and continuity errors. Typical rough draft stuff, and I never edit as I go in the pantsing phase.

In my head it was awesome. And now, reading it, I can get that movie running again in my head despite all the (fixable) flaws in execution.

Here's a sample, if you're interested. That's how my pantsed drafts come out, though the flaws at the structural level are more apparent than in this short sample.

They'd separated as they moved around, and Kala was standing in front of a painting that featured a scribble of green paint along the bottom, another scribble at the top, and something that looked like a person with pink skin and gold hair. She found something to admire in it, the color of the gray really evoked the feeling of a storm. She couldn't put her finger on it, but the artist had really nailed that particular lighting and color and mood.

A voice behind her said. "So what do you think?"

She turned and smiled at a tall, gaunt man looking very serious. "I'm not sure." she said. "I don't know much about art. But to be honest, It doesn't look very nice to me."

The man smiled. "It isn't supposed to look nice. It's meant to express the futilitty of human happiness."

Kala was appalled. Why would anyone believe that, let alone want to paint about it. "Oh. Well, I do like how well he captured the color and feel of a storm. It is interesting how he captured a certain quality of the light."

"Thank you." he said. "I spent a lot of time on getting that color just so."

"Oh, you're the painter?" Kala asked, a little flabbergasted.

"I am. Patrick Beckman."

"Glad to meet you." Kala said, noticing he did not hold his hand out. She couldn't think of what to say. A compliment would be appropriate, but she could not think of one to offer that wasn't a blatant lie. "Kala <lastname>" she said.

She turned to look back at the picture, trying to find something nice to say about it. She turned back to look at him and caught him looking over her shoulder. She realized that he could probably see down her dress.

She should have been offended, but she wasn't. She caught Uwe's eye across the room as Beckmen looked hurriedly away. He had seen someone he knew and momentarily said hello. She winked at Uwe and subtly pushed her dress open more. Uwe had said he wanted to show her off, and since she'd apparently made some impression on the artist himself, she thought she'd play it up.

He was not a good looking guy, and his manners weren't the best, but she knew it would at least get a laugh out of him. He smiled and winked back, and she saw him start making his way toward them as Bekman turned back to her.

He caught his look as he discovered that he could see a little more than he had. It was not much, but it captured his interest. She let him look, and watched Uwe approaching.

The guy was getting a little creepy, hardly pretending that he wasn't looking at her the way he was. She was starting to feel like a piece of meat, but even that she realized didn't bother her too much. She didn't mind it, so long as she was Uwe's piece of meat.

Let him stare. If she was alone, she'd be wanting to get out of there, but Uwe was coming closer, and she felt completely safe.

He came up and stood next to her. "Uwe, have you met Patrick Beckman?" she asked.

Uwe turned to him and smiled, holding his hand out to shake. "Uwe <lastname>. Glad to meet you."

Beckman shook Uwe's hand readily. Kala didn't fail to notice the difference. Definitely a creep. "You about ready to go, Babe?" Uwe asked.

She smiled and reached out to shake Beckman's hand. "It was very nice to meet you." she said.

He shook her hand standoffishly, with a glare toward Uwe.

Out the door, in the dim hallway, she pulled Uwe against the wall and kissed him. "He was a creep." she said.

"I thought he might have been. I'm sorry you had to go through that."

"Don't be." she said. She took his hand and brought it to the gap in her dress. She pushed his hand inside and over her breast. He grabbed it greedily, and his eyes flared.

"If I'm going to be treated like a piece of meat." she said, "I want you to be the one doing it."

After the way Beckman had treated her, the sense of possessiveness she got from him was exciting. It was always exciting, but the fact that it served to protect her from men like Beckman made her want to give him everything, to let him take her, however he wanted.

His lips were pursed and he took a deep breahth through his nose. He squeezed her breast harder. And his eyes flared again, except this time they didn't fully return to their calm state. He forcefully kissed her.

"We should head home." she said. Uwe just nodded, his expression neutral but intense, like he was barely keeping his head.

 

[Bramblethorn]

That's a good point. These kids don't have specific skills like that, more like exceptional intelligence and qualities like honesty. They come to it in different ways - one, it's just a family ingrained principle, another has a disgusting white trash whore of a mother and wants to be the opposite of her in every way - but in large part, they come together because of these shared propensities. Then, as they interact on this project, some of them discover talents that are undeveloped but still there and useful.

But the point stands. "Leverage" was beleivable because those skills are why they are all there, not coincidence.

Yep. You mention it being set at an elite high school, and if one takes the charitable ideal that one gets to such schools on ability (rather than family connections) that seems like a reasonable explanation. If I were trying to strengthen that aspect of the story, I might play up the "selective" aspect of the school and give a bit of background to support it being based on ability.

That quote about "you selected this story because those people are extraordinary" also has a lot going for it. IME, mostly when people complain about lack of "realism" it's not the realism per se that matters. It's something like "this story feels boring because all the characters are unremittingly good at things and don't face challenges" but that can be hard to articulate.

Leverage goes out of its way to poke fun at how ridiculously good the crew are in their specialties - things like Eliot's "it's a very distinctive ..." to explain how he can instantly pick somebody as Chilean Mafia or whatever - but it maintains tension because their plans rarely go smoothly and often they have to deal with challenges outside their strengths.

(I'm weak for any episode where Parker has to navigate social situations without stabbing somebody.)

 

[intim8]

If I were trying to strengthen that aspect of the story, I might play up the "selective" aspect of the school and give a bit of background to support it being based on ability.

I'm definitely going to take that advice.

 

[gunhilltrain]

For some reason this came up immediately after. Might help @intim8 with that 300 K word rewrite project. (Box turtle!) Anyway, just imagine that you are David Foster Wallace and you have to revise the first draft of Infinite Jest.

 

[intim8]

Leverage goes out of its way to poke fun at how ridiculously good the crew are in their specialties

Lampshading can be very useful.

I do have passages in this with characters noting how extraordinary the people around them are, and ond character explicitly describes being able to spot it fairly quickly in others, and so makes a point of reaching out to them, but even if she doesn't they tend to be naturally attracted to each other.

That part is taken from my real life experience, not that I and my friends are quite as exceptional as these people. More of a "geekdar" we seem to have.

 

[intim8]

imagine that you are David Foster Wallace and you have to revise the first draft of Infinite Jest.

I still need to read that. I took one of those online "you write like..." tests and his name came up. It was the first I'd heard of him.