What makes a power dynamic feel real instead of performative?

[HordHolm]

Hmmm... I would argue that there can be value to both 'styles' put forward here, the 'performative' and the 'authentic'. And perhaps there isn't so much difference between them if we are discussing play. I know that Mrs HordHolm likes the performative aspect, in the sense that there is a beginning to the play, before which we are equal, and then the performative aspect once the play begins and the power dynamic is altered for the duration. After which it reverts to equality. It could also be argued that this is performative, in the sense that the general outline is discussed and agreed on before hand and we fall into 'performance roles', and in that way we don't 'naturally fall' into roles. I wouldn't suggest that this is what 'authentic' means from my perspective, but I can imagine it might from others'.

Of course, once we are discussing non-erotic, real world working environments and the like, these terms can take on a very different meaning and dynamic. Although perhaps only to a point - I am a teacher, and I have a 'performative' level of authority as far as I am concerned. My authority isn't 'real' or 'authentic', in the sense that I can't actually impose anything more than the basic rules of acceptable behaviour than any other person can, but I do have 'performative' authority, in that for that brief in-classroom time I have with my class, they surrender to me the role of 'director of the group', and 'fount of wisdom' (poor sods!).

To get a real answer, of course, I suspect that we need to decide what 'authentic' actually means...

EDIT: thinking about it some more, performative and authentic are like the 'fingers' and 'thumbs' definition - all thumbs are fingers but not all fingers are thumbs. Thus, all authentic power exchanges are performative, but not all performative exchanges are authentic.

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

For you, what makes the power exchange feel authentic?

I'm curious what separates Hot from Real in your experience.

Ok, you say power exchange. So we probably talk power-exchange roleplay here. And you suggest that Hot and Real are separated.
For me such a situation feels authentic when it is not completely fantasy projection. The key for me is versisimilitude. (My word of the year) The story, within its fantasy setting, must still be plausible according to its own reality. A person must still be mostly a person, i.e. exhibit feelings, fears, convictions, joy etc.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

A lot of readers, and presumably writers, don't want an 'authentic power-exchange dynamic' - their fantasy is having one person getting to treat the other as a thing. not a person. Or being the one treated as a thing, as long as it ticks their own fantasy boxes. But as Pratchett explained, all problems in society start from treating people as things.

If you're going for a realistic story, then either it's about how A and B negotiate a relationship where there is power exchange, or you start where that relationship already exists. To make the latter plausible, both parties need to be plausible people in as far as the story goes. They need their own quirks, limits, areas of confidence and weakness.

@THBGato kindly mentioned my story Wheelchair Bound? - that's mainly about a domme recovering her confidence. For a short example, there's my 750-word story My Dom, in Boots - the narrator and their dom are made realistic (IMO) by their conversations with his female partner.

Or the first page or so of Strength is a Caged Cock - guy turns out to be a submissive to his wife, but they've clearly thought long and hard about how the relationship will work and are people as well as a domme and sub (the domme's main characteristic is being a mass of black curly hair with a small bouncy woman attached).

Thinking about power also makes other stories more realistic, especially if writing from a female POV. I recall being in a hotel room with a male friend, we'd got naked and were having fun, but he said he didn't want to tie me up because he didn't think he'd earned that level of trust. And was confused when I cracked up laughing. I had to point out that he was a super-fit power-lifter who could probably lift me over his head. I was an unfit disabled woman who struggles to lift a kettle. By being alone in a room with him, even with our clothes on, I was having to trust him with my life. Even with him just sitting astride me, even if I fought dirty, it was incredibly unlikely I could stop him doing whatever he wanted. Binding my wrists really was going to make no difference to that beyond making it less likely that I'd accidentally punch myself in the head.

Or in the chain story Matchmaking for the Shy, we have a young multi-millionaire who doesn't want to be just Christian Grey. He gets together with a submissive woman - but she's older. In his eyes, her experience matches his increased social capital - and he gets steers on a couple work situations from her, which help her feel more useful. They knowingly keep the BDSM stuff quite over the top, to make it clear that's a fantasy billionaire/naive secretary scenario, not to be mixed up with their real life.

 

[IsenRae]

I'm fairly dismayed when these things are depicted as if BDSM and D/s are about forcing your will on someone, and not what it really is: a mutual respect and agreement between two or more parties, with thought put into everyone's safety and well-being. Not some pseudo-rape fantasy where if you just force them enough, they'll like it. Likewise, I'm always extremely appreciative of the people who depict it as it really is.

The only exception being if the depiction is deliberately incorrect because the characters don't know what it's supposed to be or don't care about the rules, not the author having a massive misconception about the whole thing.

*cough* 50 Shades *cough*

 

[IsenRae]

Ok, you say power exchange. So we probably talk power-exchange roleplay here. And you suggest that Hot and Real are separated.
For me such a situation feels authentic when it is not completely fantasy projection. The key for me is versisimilitude. (My word of the year) The story, within its fantasy setting, must still be plausible according to its own reality. A person must still be mostly a person, i.e. exhibit feelings, fears, convictions, joy etc.

I feel the need for this as well. Answer I love your word of the year.

 

[IsenRae]

A lot of readers, and presumably writers, don't want an 'authentic power-exchange dynamic' - their fantasy is having one person getting to treat the other as a thing. not a person. Or being the one treated as a thing, as long as it ticks their own fantasy boxes. But as Pratchett explained, all problems in society start from treating people as things.

If you're going for a realistic story, then either it's about how A and B negotiate a relationship where there is power exchange, or you start where that relationship already exists. To make the latter plausible, both parties need to be plausible people in as far as the story goes. They need their own quirks, limits, areas of confidence and weakness.

@THBGato kindly mentioned my story Wheelchair Bound? - that's mainly about a domme recovering her confidence. For a short example, there's my 750-word story My Dom, in Boots - the narrator and their dom are made realistic (IMO) by their conversations with his female partner.

Or the first page or so of Strength is a Caged Cock - guy turns out to be a submissive to his wife, but they've clearly thought long and hard about how the relationship will work and are people as well as a domme and sub (the domme's main characteristic is being a mass of black curly hair with a small bouncy woman attached).

Thinking about power also makes other stories more realistic, especially if writing from a female POV. I recall being in a hotel room with a male friend, we'd got naked and were having fun, but he said he didn't want to tie me up because he didn't think he'd earned that level of trust. And was confused when I cracked up laughing. I had to point out that he was a super-fit power-lifter who could probably lift me over his head. I was an unfit disabled woman who struggles to lift a kettle. By being alone in a room with him, even with our clothes on, I was having to trust him with my life. Even with him just sitting astride me, even if I fought dirty, it was incredibly unlikely I could stop him doing whatever he wanted. Binding my wrists really was going to make no difference to that beyond making it less likely that I'd accidentally punch myself in the head.

Or in the chain story Matchmaking for the Shy, we have a young multi-millionaire who doesn't want to be just Christian Grey. He gets together with a submissive woman - but she's older. In his eyes, her experience matches his increased social capital - and he gets steers on a couple work situations from her, which help her feel more useful. They knowingly keep the BDSM stuff quite over the top, to make it clear that's a fantasy billionaire/naive secretary scenario, not to be mixed up with their real life.

Thank you for this perspective. I'll read your piece!

 

[IsenRae]

Let me preface this response by saying I'm not really into D/S or predatory seduction stories. Thus my view probably isn't indicative of the core readership of these.

That said, the most intriguing stories are those where the power inbalance varies.

For example, Wheelchair bound by @Kumquatqueen is really interesting as the sub is physically far more powerful than the domme.

An indispensable woman features a highly paid HR executive suffering from burn out. She agrees to let her much younger, illiterate housekeeper dictate her timetable. One of the things I love about this story is that the power flows in both directions at different times. That's far more interesting than a one-way street.

Ditto Hero Worship where the baby gay sub is far more financially and socially secure than the physically strong butch she convinces to date her. The sub is also the one who pushes for the D/S dynamic.

So, that's my feeling. Keep it varied. Perhaps the partner who is more powerful in the bedroom has less finacial or social clout outside it. That to me is more interesting than if the power all flows in one direction.

Thank you, I hadn't considered this.

@Kumquatqueen responded below as well. Can't wait to check these out.

 

[nice90sguy]

I'm thinking about the original question.

There IS a performative aspect of power exchange and D/s. The key is to make it seem like the characters are performing for each other, or for themselves, rather than for the reader. "Performative" is OK, but it's got to be the right sort of performative.

There's no one way to do that, but just keep asking yourself as you write, "Why is my character doing this?" "Would my character do this?"

I don't understand this at all -- about "seem like the characters are performing for each other". That's true of any fiction


Philosphical discussion of what it means to be "Pretending":
https://www.aristoteliansociety.org.uk/pdf/Austin_Anscombe.pdf

 

[MillieDynamite]

In the real world BDSM community, there are far too many fake Doms (of either sex) who are really just abusers counting on getting away with it in the community.

 

[SimonDoom]

I don't understand this at all -- about "seem like the characters are performing for each other". That's true of any fiction


Philosphical discussion of what it means to be "Pretending":
https://www.aristoteliansociety.org.uk/pdf/Austin_Anscombe.pdf

I would disagree. I often read stories here where I feel the characters are puppets on strings performing for the readers at the hands of the author rather than dealing with each other as people really would.

 

[nice90sguy]

I would disagree. I often read stories here where I feel the characters are puppets on strings performing for the readers at the hands of the author rather than dealing with each other as people really would.

Sure, but that's not connected with "power dynamics" -- my point is that the rule applies to any story, and what you said is a general criticism -- which of course I agree with.

 

[Britva415]

There IS a performative aspect of power exchange and D/s.

Absolutely!

Kind of in the same way that there's a performative aspect to training a dog to "stay," or training a newly hired employee, or training a swimmer to be a champion.

 

[Britva415]

A lot of readers, and presumably writers, don't want an 'authentic power-exchange dynamic'

and wouldn't recognize it as authentic if they saw it.

 

[Britva415]

I don't understand this at all -- about "seem like the characters are performing for each other". That's true of any fiction

to the exact same extent that it's true about any real-life interaction. See two posts above.

There's authentic, effective performance, and there's inauthentic, ineffective performance.

 

[IsenRae]

I would disagree. I often read stories here where I feel the characters are puppets on strings performing for the readers at the hands of the author rather than dealing with each other as people really would.

This is actually a really fascinating observation!

bodies moving for spectacle
dialogue that exists only to be sexy
reactions calibrated for audience responses.

That's where depth collapses...

The moment a characters reaction feels designed to impress the reader instead of affect the other character, the illusion breaks.

 

[IsenRae]

and wouldn't recognize it as authentic if they saw it.

Would you recognize it?

What's a subtle power exchange that most people would miss?

 

[Britva415]

Would you recognize it?

What's a subtle power exchange that most people would miss?

You're putting words in my mouth. "Most people" my ass. There is a very specific set of people we were talking about.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Excuse me, I wandered in here by mistake. Can the powers that be direct me to the restroom, please?

Oops, never mind, too late.

 

[nice90sguy]

I think what's confusing people here (maybe just me that's confused) is that you have this thing called "role-play" and then you have real stuff. D/s is often roleplayed (but so is a lot of other stuff, like interviews, and ofc it's all over the place in psychotherpay.

This is why I linked the hard-to-read piece by JL Austin on the nature of pretence, in my earlier post.

So, I guess, people think that phony wind-up story characters are more prevelant in stories featuring D/s -- because it reminds them of role-play?

I'm sorry to say I see it in most porn stories, including my own: I also see it in a ton of movies: It doesn't irk me if it's meant to be comical, but when there's clearly an attempt at realism, the characters too often seem to be picked simply to tick boxes, or to serve a narrative purpose, rather than feel like they have agency and purposes of their own.

 

[IsenRae]

You're putting words in my mouth. "Most people" my ass. There is a very specific set of people we were talking about.

I was trying to understand the distinction you were making. My apologies if it read differently, that wasn’t my intent.

 

[anthrodisiac]

It doesn't irk me if it's meant to be comical, but when there's clearly an attempt at realism, the characters too often seem to be picked simply to tick boxes, or to serve a narrative purpose, rather than feel like they have agency and purposes of their own.

I frequently say characters should exist independent of the story. They just happen to be there when the story occurs. Goes for all characters, not just the protag, antag, or any other tags.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I frequently say characters should exist independent of the story. They just happen to be there when the story occurs. Goes for all characters, not just the protag, antag, or any other tags.

I can't remember where I read it, but I read a list of questions you should be able to answer about your character before using them in a story. It was roughly;
How old are they? Where are they from?
What sort of job do they have? What do they like doing in their spare time?
What sort of holiday would they choose to go on? What sort of night out locally?
What's their favourite biscuit?

I'm not sure if cookies have the same function socially in America, but you get the general idea.

The final point was Do not mention any of this in your story unless it's relevant.

 

[Britva415]

a list of questions you should be able to answer about your character before using them in a story

I think being able to answer, if asked, is sufficient. I don't think a writer has to have asked-and-answered them before writing.

It's like - you can sort of know-without-knowing, and then those answers, if asked, would follow from how you know the character. The character can exist without doing this as a cahracter-development exercise.