Why is it

[FungiUg]

One of the many things I find amusing about myself is that I find incest stories a turn on. Okay, not as much of a turn on as mind control, BDSM and group sex stories. But they are up there.

And yet, the idea of sex with one of my sisters or what I can remember of my mother is a complete turn off. The sexual partners I tend to go for differ from my sisters, and part of that is that anyone who reminds me of my sister I don't tend to view as sexually attractive.

Go figure.

Anyway, my point is that the human psyche (my own included, I hope) is a mish-mash of many things, and not all of them easy to pin down in black and white. It doesn't surprise me that there are many people who see a link between BDSM and incest; I can see it myself. But I'm pretty damned sure I never found a beating at the hands of a parent to be erotic. And I certainly don't fantasise about any of my parental figures.

I think a clearer link could be made for me between my childhood experience and becoming Dominant. I couldn't argue that link. But it's not an incestuous link. I don't regard submissives I play with as parental figures, as siblings nor as children. I may use pet names like "little girl", "babe" and so on, but that still doesn't imply an incestuous link.

Sooo... no, from personal experience, I don't think every BDSM devotee has an incestuous desire, either conciously or "below the surface". But it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn that many do.

Of course, it also wouldn't surprise me that many are into watersports and scat play.

Venn diagrams! Yay! (mmmm... set theory... sorry, is my relational database profession showing?)

 

[Pure]

Sweet said,

But again, these posts don't seem to have any BDSM quality to it - just the basic roleplay

You haven't shown the posts, but I can imagine what you say.

Unlike many here, I'm more than willing to say a straight 'role play' may have NO bdsm quality at all. I.e., if you [Sweet] play the sheriff and I [pure] play the outlaw; you play teacher, I play student. That's because NO person is exercising direction or control [Sweet is NOT bossing pure around]; it's simply a *character* who's shown that way.

I see no necessary exercise of power, if in the role play, the 'teacher' says 'stand in the corner' and I do it.

That said, I think Angela has well stated my approach. Early experiences tinge all later ones, imo. All parents start off as 'omnipotent', which is why 'rage' happens (also depression).

Further, in troubled (neurotic) individuals, like some of us, there is clear lingering 'issues.' Hence, where power is *ACTUALLY* excercized--NOT as in the examples above-- there is bound to be resonance with experiences of parents. As Angela said, it's not obvious sexual intercourse: but if there's a powerful female, and an truly helpless male (NOT as above), then that male may well react in terms of powerful mommy [without consciousness, necessarily]. Same if the sexes are switched. It's no coincidence that female subs call the dom(me), 'Daddy'.

Lastly, the phenomena of repetition and 'working through' should be mentioned. Some people repeatedly recreate certain situations, such as abuse. Likewise some always chose dictatorial mates, when that was there experience of one parent. OTOH, the 'working through' phenomenon does happen, where a person re-creates something, like a rape, and gradually gets a handle on it. Both of these may involve parental issues.

 

[SweetDommes]

Sweet said,

But again, these posts don't seem to have any BDSM quality to it - just the basic roleplay

You haven't shown the posts, but I can imagine what you say.

As I did say where they were (i.e. the first page of the BDSM personals forum) at the time that I posted the topic initially, I didn't think it was needed to post them here as well ... they are quite easy to find if you care to look at them.

And with that, I still don't see the connection between those threads and any actual BDSM.

 

[D's mariposa]

Further, in troubled (neurotic) individuals, like some of us, there is clear lingering 'issues.' Hence, where power is *ACTUALLY* excercized--NOT as in the examples above-- there is bound to be resonance with experiences of parents. As Angela said, it's not obvious sexual intercourse: but if there's a powerful female, and an truly helpless male (NOT as above), then that male may well react in terms of powerful mommy [without consciousness, necessarily]. Same if the sexes are switched. It's no coincidence that female subs call the dom(me), 'Daddy'.

Lastly, the phenomena of repetition and 'working through' should be mentioned. Some people repeatedly recreate certain situations, such as abuse. Likewise some always chose dictatorial mates, when that was there experience of one parent. OTOH, the 'working through' phenomenon does happen, where a person re-creates something, like a rape, and gradually gets a handle on it. Both of these may involve parental issues.

Yes, SOME submissives call their Dom/me "mommy" or "daddy" ALL submissives do not. SOME people are reacting to incest issues. ALL are not. I just love it when people make vast sweeping stereotypical indictments of a group of people as you did. It's especially insulting when the person making the stereotypical indictment presents themselves as a member of the group they are stereotyping. I am not saying that I don't have issues. I do, and they can be staggering. But I have enough of my own crap to deal with, and I don't need your issues to deal with as well, so please do NOT project your incest issues on my relationship.

And, in response to your last paragraph.. Did you read any of the previous posts? Call me silly, but I swear I made the same the point on my first post on the thread. Also, you never clarified ysabet's (enigma nocturne) question, which also leads me to believe that you're not reading, just projecting.

edited for extreme bitchiness. Yes, I'm still mad as all get out for people telling me all about what lies beneath my relationship with D, but I'll admit, I was maybe a little bit over the top.

 

[Kajira Callista]

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254776

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255234


not the same as roleplay

 

[CreativeSubmissions]

Honestly I can understand where people are coming from when they confuse the roleplaying, fantasies can start anywhere but there is a difference from doing it in real life and your dreams

 

[SweetDommes]

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=254776

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=255234


not the same as roleplay

Very true - and I did mention that one of the threads involved incest porn rather than roleplay, but 2 of the ones I saw were for roleplay (they wanted someone to pretend to be their mother or sister) - of course, now I'll have to find the posts ... ug.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Very true - and I did mention that one of the threads involved incest porn rather than roleplay, but 2 of the ones I saw were for roleplay (they wanted someone to pretend to be their mother or sister) - of course, now I'll have to find the posts ... ug.

incest roleplay or for real incest....i agree with you 100%, it doesnt belong in the BDSM personals. they should be moved to where they belong. Just my humble opinion

 

[Pure]

Hi Sweet

Just so something concrete is on the table. I took your suggestion and found a couple ads.

1.
incest fantasy hey im an XX male who lives in XXXX and looking for women who want to play as either my mother or sister, e-amil me at XXXX@aol.com is your interested.

2.
Looking for a naughty mommy XX/m looking for an older women to roleplay with either online or in person. I am located in XXXX state and would someone to play out my incest fantasies.
Will you be my mommy.
--------

I agree that, on their face, these may not directly relate to "BDSM"-- assuming that can be defined.

However, in the second case, it's not hard to imagine that the 'mommy' might order the 'son' (I presume) around, for example.

Further, you're probably aware that a line between 'fetish' and 'bdsm' is not always easily drawn, and a number of 'bdsm' organizations bill their events as open to 'bdsm' and 'fetish' people. For instance, if someone likes to dress up in a leather suit, and wear a hood, carry a whip, and seem menacing, that would be in a gray area, depending on what, if anything else was carried out or role played or enacted.

 

[SweetDommes]

Hi Sweet

Just so something concrete is on the table. I took your suggestion and found a couple ads.

1.
incest fantasy hey im an XX male who lives in XXXX and looking for women who want to play as either my mother or sister, e-amil me at XXXX@aol.com is your interested.

2.
Looking for a naughty mommy XX/m looking for an older women to roleplay with either online or in person. I am located in XXXX state and would someone to play out my incest fantasies.
Will you be my mommy.
--------

I agree that, on their face, these may not directly relate to "BDSM"-- assuming that can be defined.

However, in the second case, it's not hard to imagine that the 'mommy' might order the 'son' (I presume) around, for example.

Further, you're probably aware that a line between 'fetish' and 'bdsm' is not always easily drawn, and a number of 'bdsm' organizations bill their events as open to 'bdsm' and 'fetish' people. For instance, if someone likes to dress up in a leather suit, and wear a hood, carry a whip, and seem menacing, that would be in a gray area, depending on what, if anything else was carried out or role played or enacted.

And that is why I posted asking them for more details about what they are wanting - as to why they felt that the BDSM personals was the place to post ....

 

[Pure]

enigma said,

I have to ask you to clarify, are you saying that "ALL bdsm scenes have an underlying incestuous theme"? (I am not being rude, but English is not my first language, and I want to be sure I know what you mean before I say something.)

D's mariposa is concerned about stereotyping, 'some' versus 'all.'

Because of the variety of 'scenes' it would be rash to say they have anything at all in common. After all, "BDSM" is not written in stone, it's just four letters to depict half a dozen sometimes- linked practices. Indeed, I use only SM myself on most occasions.

What I did suggest is that where genuine power over is exercized, then, at least for those with 'issues', there will be a resonance with (possible evocation of) experiences with the power or one or both parents.

As to 'incest themes', those are not necessarily a part of what I described. But they might arise--again by a kind of resonance-- where power is presently eroticized AND early experiences with a parent's power were, in kindred fashion.

I hope these more careful formulations will help D's mariposa to respond more calmly. (And note previous post on two ads, D's m)

J.

PS for D's Mariposa,
I have gone back to re read your first post, and indeed you were thinking of some of the same possible linkages. But which we can't be sure of, on the present evidence. I'm sorry I did not acknowledge your posting. I agree with almost all of it, except the first sentence.

 

[sweetie_sultry_sub]

Hmm... interesting issue .... perhaps they have posted at the BDSM personals rather than the general because there is more 'acceptance' here than in the general arenas? It is interesting to note how differently topics are reacted to here vs. general portions of lit. Perhaps the posters felt they'd be attacked at the general personal board and had a better chance at the BDSM board?

(not saying that is the case or that i necessarily agree, but it could be the motivation/reasoning).

I agree that the motivation may have been exceptance, and that can be hard to find in any lifestyle. That is the main reason I try to remain open minded. But as an incest survivor, I must say I will never understand that way of thinking at all and I love non consent,just cant go there.

But to each his own and so be it.

 

[SweetDommes]

I agree that the motivation may have been exceptance, and that can be hard to find in any lifestyle.

I'm not offended or anything - just curious as to why they posted on the BDSM personals ... I think they'd have more luck elsewhere - since I didn't see much of anything in the posts that would be D/s or BDSM related.

 

[sweetie_sultry_sub]

I agree that they need to find a better place to post.

I think it also has to do with the fact that people that do not understand that this life style is more than just kinky sex, they believe it is all about pervs and kink and sex and thats it. They do not understand that it is about total devotion, submission, respect, love , patience, trust and understanding. A shame that more people can not see BDSM as a lifestyle instead of an immoral game to play in the bedroom.

 

[Pure]

sss, i guess youre going to say there's something *wrong with immoral games in the bedroom???

 

[sweetie_sultry_sub]

sss, i guess youre going to say there's something *wrong with immoral games in the bedroom???

Hell no I love immoral game, just that isnt all this lifestyle is to me and most people do not realize that. I wish more knew what it is really about to most of us.

 

[D's mariposa]

Okay. So much to respond to.

Point 1.

Again, it is not the incest thing I object too. It is the stereotyping. I detest people trying to label me, my relationship and stuffing me in a box with a label on it. Looking at the big picture, some of us were up in arms about the automatic assumption that incest=bdsm. How can we complain about said stereotype when there are members of our community who perpetuate it? So maybe I'll just bow out here.

Point 2.

Esclave said: Forgive the incredulity, but I cannot fathom wanting to have sex with either of my parents let alone wanting someone to roleplay one or the other so I could satisfy some..."need" I felt had been unmet. Perhaps those who identify with those threads were beaten as children and see BDSM as a way to get back at the disciplinarian parent with the benefits of humiliation sex as a bonus.

Heckle said: Anyone who relates incest with BDSM has no idea about what BDSM really is. (fixed a few typos)

Angela said: Speaking only for myself and not for Pure...

I would tend to think that a "large number" of people who are into BDSM have an incestuous component in their enjoyment of it. That component might simply be based on the fact that they got turned on sometimes while over mom/dad's lap being spanked.

In my lexicon, an "incestuous component" does not necessarily imply a desire to screw mom or get screwed by dad. It might, be a case of having been turned on by a parent's actions and not having had any satisfaction of the desires from the parent (and maybe fantasizing/masturbating during the recovery time after the punishment).


Pure said: Now this is not to say all 'bdsm' players are conscious of role playing an incest related scene, but the parental connection is there, IMO, just beneath the surface.

I'm not going to c and p everyone, but from where I'm sitting bdsm looks pretty darn subjective to me!


Point 3, Pure said: I have gone back to re read your first post, and indeed you were thinking of some of the same possible linkages. But which we can't be sure of, on the present evidence. I'm sorry I did not acknowledge your posting. I agree with almost all of it, except the first sentence. (italics mine)

Thanks for the acknowledgement.

I'm not going to comment further on this thread, but I leave you with one more thought. D has been monitoring this thread. As has my KAP (kink aware professional) psychiatrist, who incidently has confirmed that I do not have an Oedipus complex/bdsm thing going on. Yes folks, you heard it here first, I have officially been declared incest free by my Dom and my psychiatrist. They both had pretty much the same response. "So he read the first line, decided he didn't agree with you and ignored the rest until someone called him on it." I don't ask you to agree with me, but I do request that you not dismiss my opinion out of hand because you happen to believe otherwise.

Finally, Pure, I have not really lost my cool yet. I'm frustrated, yes, but not truly angry. Hopefully this was "calm" enough to settle your ruffled feathers. If not, oh well. However, I found your comment on my "calmness" or lack there of to be condescending and rude. Try to make your point without scoring one and I'll take you a bit more seriously.

Finally, to the coward that sent me the Poison Pixel letter:

If you don't have the balls to post your opinion in an open forum, in order to facilitate debate, don't send them by PM and/or email. If you do send them by PM or email, and you DO manage to make a valid point worthy of open discussion, be prepared to see yourself quoted. Further, the English language is a beautiful thing, with thousands of words at your disposal. Use them. It is not necessary to use a swearword in every second sentence. However, if you are going to use them, use them correctly. This is the only response you will see, (unless of course, you post your ideas) as I'm not going to get into an email debate with you, but if you would like to see your letter edited for spelling and grammatical errors, I will be happy to correct it and return it to you.

 

[Pure]

D's M said,

Yes folks, you heard it here first, I have officially been declared incest free by my Dom and my psychiatrist.

That's good news. Authoritative! Now there is that little matter of your unruly temper and your postings

You do know, of course, that it's common 'shrink' procedure, in therapy, to re assure the person around sensitive topics which may create too much anxiety, stated baldly.


If the patient asks, "Do i have xx complex?" or
"Are you saying I was erotically attracted to my mom?"

and is not thought to be 'ready,'

it's almost obligatory to avoid the question or say 'no' (regardless).


They [shrink and dom] both had pretty much the same response. "So he read the first line, decided he didn't agree with you and ignored the rest until someone called him on it."

EVEN were it true I ignored your posting, in making mine, I don't see the hanging offense. I hope the grievous wrong is redressed. Would it be time for you and your shrink to get to some more central issues?

BTW, it's customary, in some way, either font or markings, to distinguish a quotation from your comments on it. In your last posting, some passages, people can't see exactly what the authors said.

J.

PS. Denouncing poison pen emails is an occasional pastime around lit, and the aggrieved party gets lots of 'there there' from friends. Do you find a good tirade to be therapeutic?

 

[Phoenix Stone]

As Fungi said, most people's experience of power over comes from their parents. So it's logical that the top or 'dom/me' have, in that respect, a parental quality.

Yeah, yeah, and most people's potty training comes from their parents, too. So does that mean that bdsm and scat are related? That too early or traumatic potty training underlies bdsm?

Further many people's experience of eroticized pain, first came in a parental or 'authority' context.

...And most people's experience of eroticized Scat first came from parents, too! What were we thinking?? It's Scat and Incest that are related!

You might note that God, is often given a parental cast, as in "Father."

And not a few dommes are happy with 'goddess.'

Oh, Fuck G-d. No, I mean Literally -- Fuck G-d!
We're not talkin' incest here, we're talking Spirituality! Yeah, that's the ticket! It's really deep underlying Spiritual issues -- a search to becum One with G-d, that we are aiming at in bdsm. This is Waaaaay beyond, waaaaay deeper than incest.... I mean if we're gonna talk Power, let's talk Ultimate Power. We are wanting to be Mary (those of us who are Christian, which includes me out) so that we can Fuck G-d, and give birth to Jesus! Talk about your Madonna/Whore complexes!

The psychological linkage is obviously suggested in the pet names one hears all the time, "Daddy." "Little one" "girl."

Pure, Pure, Pure -- this one is just plain weak. Ok, Daddy I'll give you (it always seemed a little strange to me, anyway, sorry Etoile and others with Daddies). But Little one? What would you have instead for a sub? Weak one? Me Big, you small. Very Tarzan and Jane to me, doesn't say parent in any strong way. And Girl? Are you kidding? Do you know how hard a time I have trying to get anybody in the vanilla world to call me anything But girl? I haven't been a girl for a very long time. My girl, doesn't say incest to me. Hmm, My Girl -- sounds like a song....

Now this is not to say all 'bdsm' players are conscious of role playing an incest related scene, but the parental connection is there, IMO, just beneath the surface.

Uh oh. Right. For those of you who don't know What the hell he's talking about and why the heck those guys think bdsm is related to incest -- don't worry, you're just not Conscious enough. Nice circular reasoning. Did I mention that we are In Denial, too?

Ack, you Freudians kill me. Didn't you know Freud was disproved? Logically and scientifically. Or am I making a leap here? Wouldn't want to do that....

(edited to add as many rolling eyeballs as I thought I could get away with )

 

[Phoenix Stone]

Now here's my theory....

Incest is Abuse. Most people think bdsm is abuse. Hence, some people think incest belongs with bdsm.

Further, to back Pure up to Some extent, though I think he got ahold of the wrong end, and is swinging this poor cat by the tail...

Incest is about not only Abuse but also is achieved through control, domination, and sadism. (There is almost always an age and power differential, which is used by the one with power to make the abuse happen.) It certainly can't happen without control, and is usually non-consensual, at the very least, children, by virtue of age are unable to reasonably consent.

Bdsm has these same elements except one. It is consensual. Which is what makes it not abuse. Incest uses bdsm means. By this token, we should include mugging in the category. The argument that incest underlies bdsm, is to me as absurd, as the idea that because someone wanted to including erotic enjoyment of mugging and mugging stories on the forum, that perhaps thievery motives underlie bdsm.

Oh, I forgot. It's really Scat. Or was it Spirituality, and wanting to return to G-d? I'm soooo confused...!

 

[Phoenix Stone]

D's M said,

Yes folks, you heard it here first, I have officially been declared incest free by my Dom and my psychiatrist.

That's good news. Authoritative! Now there is that little matter of your unruly temper and your postings

You do know, of course, that it's common 'shrink' procedure, in therapy, to re assure the person around sensitive topics which may create too much anxiety, stated baldly.


If the patient asks, "Do i have xx complex?" or
"Are you saying I was erotically attracted to my mom?"

and is not thought to be 'ready,'

it's almost obligatory to avoid the question or say 'no' (regardless).


They [shrink and dom] both had pretty much the same response. "So he read the first line, decided he didn't agree with you and ignored the rest until someone called him on it."

EVEN were it true I ignored your posting, in making mine, I don't see the hanging offense. I hope the grievous wrong is redressed. Would it be time for you and your shrink to get to some more central issues?

BTW, it's customary, in some way, either font or markings, to distinguish a quotation from your comments on it. In your last posting, some passages, people can't see exactly what the authors said.

J.

PS. Denouncing poison pen emails is an occasional pastime around lit, and the aggrieved party gets lots of 'there there' from friends. Do you find a good tirade to be therapeutic?

Wow, Pure, I've never seen you mad before! And about something that wasn't your best argument either. In fact, I was surprised to see you go off, it seemed to me, half-cocked. Explain? Were you just taking a devil's advocate position, then got offended when it felt like it got personal, or what? I'd really like to understand.


(Hope I can be around tomorrow to find out where this all goes. And that we can shake hands and go back to being gentlemen or whatever.)

(will more roses help? )

 

[Pure]

Hi Phoenix,

You make a number of good points in response to my original posting of 6-21. It certainly could have used more nuance and elaboration. In my postings of 6-22, which you don't consider, I thnk I had a better whack at the problem. I'd love to hear of your responses.

Wow, Pure, I've never seen you mad before! And about something that wasn't your best argument either. In fact, I was surprised to see you go off, it seemed to me, half-cocked. Explain? Were you just taking a devil's advocate position, then got offended when it felt like it got personal, or what? I'd really like to understand.

I'd say annoyed, would be more accurate. D's m managed to construe some general remarks as a personal attack, and responded with personal unpleasantness. Her last posting was, indeed, almost wholly lacking in relevance to the topic of the thread. Which is NOT what any given person (DM) happens to have (or not) as incest issues for therapy. Further her attempted responses are hopelessly mixed with unmarked quotations from various people, so many readers won't be able to untangle things.

Enough excuses for my lapse; I hope the unpleasantnesses cease, and am trying to do my part. They are boring to others and a diversion from the issues. Both Fungi and Angela and you have made good points. Linkages with parental issues are rather obvious in some persons' bdsm practices. (You dont have to be a follower of disproven Freud to see this .)

As to one major point of yours:

Incest is about not only Abuse but also is achieved through control, domination, and sadism. (There is almost always an age and power differential, which is used by the one with power to make the abuse happen.) It certainly can't happen without control, and is usually non-consensual, at the very least, children, by virtue of age are unable to reasonably consent.

I think I got this better formulated in the 6-22 postings. I agree experience of power is the core issue. I'd go further and suggest that its unbridled exercize is found in 'normal' and 'non abusive' parenting. Think of having a being on whom you're utterly dependent, say (through acts): " You, though hungry, are not going to be fed right now, there are other things I wish to do!" Think of the 'rage' issues found from babyhood through early childhood.

Indeed, rage is such a delicate subject that only a couple posters in the whole forum-- principally roscoe, ownedsub and quint--own up to it, and its role in bdsm. Almost everyone else (ie., NOT Netzach) is into deep denial mode: essentially saying "we're gentle angels, kind and totally controlled in our consensual inflictions, and very huggy afterwards."

But to your ideas of abuse, I have no quarrel, and i'd add that humiliation and shame are key factors. Again things many of us learn at the hands, sticks, belts, and penises of parents.

The other element to which my postings adverted was the erotization of power and its exercize. That is certainly a factor in many a childhood, the stereotypical example being reactions to spanking, caning, and restraint. In particular, if it's Dad spanking a his daughter of five or ten, any eroticization of corporal measures will surely have an incestuous tinge, in daughter, Dad, or both.

My general point, in a nutshell was that individuals so affected (afflicted?), may be expected to have such issues alive and resonating to their chosen bdsm erotic play, insofar as genuine power is involved.

Best,