Why the Sonnet?

[notquite69]

Sonnet variation:

The beauty of a sonnet is that it is a fixed form (iambic pentameter with varying line patterns--abbaabbacdcdcd, ababcdcdefefgg, etc>)which challenges the poet to somehow find a way to espress his (or her) ideas or emotions in a fresh way, yet stay within the bounds. To see how adaptable the form is, see, for example, how different Shakespeare's sonnets 18 ("Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?", ),130 ("My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun"), and 138 ("When my love swears that she is made of truth,/ I do believe her, though I know she lies.") seem. Or, for a real contrast, try e.e. cummings clever parody of a typical political bullshit speech--"next to of course god america i/love you land of the pilgrims' and so forth oh/..."
The sonnet is a living form so long as the imaginations of poets keep trying to bend it --but not break it--to modern parallels.

 

[notquite69]

Enjambment

Enjambment can't exist in an oral tradition? Ask any actor who has done Shakespeare on the stage: the tension between the espected iambic pen-tameter and the variations and enjambment that give the lines flexibility and surprise are what make the verses work.

why not the bicycle, tricycle
because I asked... it wasn't handed down by god


Did anyone ever consider the fact that it looks so good on the printed page , these things like enjambment can't exist in an oral tradition. So maybe the sonnet was developed for a visual reason to utilise a new and spreading technology, the printing press.

Rhyme (also known as a memory device) was probably a residual effect from the heroic couplets of the oral traditon. Let's not get too revolutionary, else how would they know it's poetry?

Just wondering. And wondering may be the best tool you can use for the development of your writing. How sad to ever find the answer.

 

[average gina]

Intriguing dialogue. It has made me think about how to manipulate 14 lines of iambic pentameter. I've only written one unusual form of poetry, a villanelle.

And thanks for reminding me that I have to reschool myself on poetic terms and stuff. Geez, why didn't I pay more attention in Brit Lit II ...

Speaking of ... uhm ... never mind. I've still got Shakespeare on the brain.

He's a pretty good writer.

 

[Angeline]

Then have you Sonets; some think that all Poemes (being short) may be called Sonets, as in deede it is a diminutive worde derived of Sonare, but yet I can beste allowe to call those Sonets whiche are of fouretene lynes, every line coneteyning tenne syllables. The first twelve do ryme in staves of foure lines by crosse meetre, and the last twoo ryming togither do conclude the whole.
~ George Gascoigne, 1575
(in English Sixteenth Century Verse, An Anthology. Richard S. Sylvester, 326.)

If you read this essay on the Sonnet in the Twentieth Centruy, you may in deede conclude that the sonnet is all poemes (being short) which are of fouretene lynes. Meter, syllable count, and rhyme scheme have been pushed, pulled and discarded. In other words (and to paraphrase a few posts in this thread), if the poet says it's a sonnet, guess what? It's a sonnet.

 

[Tzara]

Enjambment can't exist in an oral tradition? Ask any actor who has done Shakespeare on the stage: the tension between the espected iambic pen-tameter and the variations and enjambment that give the lines flexibility and surprise are what make the verses work.

The lines, I think, are still pentameter whether enjambed or not. The use of enjambment may change how the actor (or any experienced reader) recites them, but it doesn't make them not iambic pentameter. That's a function of the type and number of stresses per line.

Sez the psychology major who works in the software industry, as if he actually knew something about the topic.

 

[Angeline]

The lines, I think, are still pentameter whether enjambed or not. The use of enjambment may change how the actor (or any experienced reader) recites them, but it doesn't make them not iambic pentameter. That's a function of the type and number of stresses per line.

Sez the psychology major who works in the software industry, as if he actually knew something about the topic.

Well I'm voting with you on this one. Enjambment is part of the written tradition, not the oral. The words that are read may be spoken aloud and interpreted variously as part of a speech, but they originate from the writing of verse.

 

[TheRainMan]

Enjambment can't exist in an oral tradition? Ask any actor who has done Shakespeare on the stage: the tension between the espected iambic pen-tameter and the variations and enjambment that give the lines flexibility and surprise are what make the verses work.

how can enjambment exist in the oral tradition?!? . . . it's something you see -- you can't hear it (unless the reader is incorrectly pausing at the end of a line simply because it's the end of a line).

maybe you're confusing the term with some other.

enjambment doesn't exist in drama, so the example about actors doing Shakespeare on stage seems a wee bit off (unless they're doing his poetry, of course).

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[TheRainMan]

Enjambment does exist in drama if the drama is in verse - as in Shakespeare's unrhymed iambic pentameter. To quote a random sample - part of a well-known speech from As You Like It:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel,
And shining morning face, creeping like a snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like a furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress'eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths...

you're right, of course. with drama written in verse. i stand corrected.

i still don't see how enjambment is in any way part of the oral tradition, though. to me, it seems part of the written only.

 

[WhiteWave48]

*****

 

[Angeline]

you're right, of course. with drama written in verse. i stand corrected.

i still don't see how enjambment is in any way part of the oral tradition, though. to me, it seems part of the written only.

The very concept of punctuation is based on the visual presentation of speech. We don't say "comma" when we pause, we just pause. But writing is derived from speech, and our understanding of commas and periods, etc., comes, originally, from what was heard. So it's a chicken and egg sort of argument. Reading, writing, and listening are too intertwined to completely separate them. One could argue that an actor who "enjambs" lines or stops them against the way they were written is misinterpreting the writer, never mind even the original, written enjambment. But we take liberties every time we read, every iteration of reading is a deviation from the original writing.

We're probably all hung up on semantics, as usual.

 

[Tathagata]

We're probably all hung up on semantics, as usual.

Are you suggesting we be anti-semantic?

Sing a song of sixpence,
A pocket full of rye,
Four and twenty blackbirds,
Baked in a pie.
When the pie was opened,
The birds began to sing.
Was this not a dainty dish
To set before the King?

I assume this is enjambment...I wonder if this was passed down orally before it was written down?

 

[TheRainMan]

Are you suggesting we be anti-semantic? . . .

lol

i say take all them damn words to the oven, and fry 'em.

 

[Sara Crewe]

lol

i say take all them damn words to the oven, and fry 'em.

*lets all the birds fly free out the back before the carnivores completely lose their minds*

 

[TheRainMan]

. . . Was this not a dainty dish
To set before the King?

I assume this is enjambment...I wonder if this was passed down orally before it was written down?

it is enjambment.

but if it was passed down orally, how would one know it was enjambed?

wouldn't you hear it like this?:

Was this not a dainty dish to set before the King?

here's the definition -- the breaking of a syntactic unit (a phrase, clause, or sentence) by the end of a line or between two verses. Its opposite is end-stopping, where each linguistic unit corresponds with a single line.

how does one know where the break is unless they're looking at it?

enjambment seems visual to me.

 

[TheRainMan]

*lets all the birds fly free out the back before the carnivores completely lose their minds*

yes, i do want to sink my teeth into you.

 

[Tathagata]

it is enjambment.

but if it was passed down orally, how would one know it was enjambed?

wouldn't you hear it like this?:

Was this not a dainty dish to set before the King?

here's the definition -- the breaking of a syntactic unit (a phrase, clause, or sentence) by the end of a line or between two verses. Its opposite is end-stopping, where each linguistic unit corresponds with a single line.

how does one know where the break is unless they're looking at it?

enjambment seems visual to me.

understood


what I was trying to decide was, would they write it down according to how it was sung, or chanted, or told?
Or would they make conscious use of enjambment?
Do you see what I mean?


I'm in over my head on this anyway

 

[Angeline]

understood


what I was trying to decide was, would they write it down according to how it was sung, or chanted, or told?
Or would they make conscious use of enjambment?
Do you see what I mean?


I'm in over my head on this anyway

I'm actually pro-Semantic. I'm sure you're not suprised.

And the reason is because whether you were speaking or reading (to yourself) and you ran one line to the next, you'd be using enjambment. You just wouldn't apply that word if you were speaking as opposed to reading. You wouldn't look up at the sky and think that the corner of your vision was where the "frame" ended either, but that doesn't mean your perspective is different when you look at a painting. You just wouldn't normally use "frame" to describe the corner of sky you see. Or maybe, being a poet, you would. But you receive my meaning.

The vocabularies are different, but the concept is the same.

Yknow, we should be asking Liar what he thinks about all this. Isn't he writing a dissertation on it?

 

[Tathagata]

I'm actually pro-Semantic. I'm sure you're not suprised.

And the reason is because whether you were speaking or reading (to yourself) and you ran one line to the next, you'd be using enjambment. You just wouldn't apply that word if you were speaking as opposed to reading. You wouldn't look up at the sky and think that the corner of your vision was where the "frame" ended either, but that doesn't mean your perspective is different when you look at a painting. You just wouldn't normally use "frame" to describe the corner of sky you see. Or maybe, being a poet, you would. But you receive my meaning.

The vocabularies are different, but the concept is the same.

Yknow, we should be asking Liar what he thinks about all this. Isn't he writing a dissertation on it?

I think I still relate it all back to singing or music
where ever the breath is
is a break


and yes i receive your meaning

over and out

 

[twelveoone]

Enjambment does exist in drama if the drama is in verse - as in Shakespeare's unrhymed iambic pentameter. To quote a random sample - part of a well-known speech from As You Like It:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
Mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.
And then the whining schoolboy, with his satchel,
And shining morning face, creeping like a snail
Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
Sighing like a furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress'eyebrow. Then a soldier,
Full of strange oaths...

How would you read it?

 

[champagne1982]

How would you read it?

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women
merely players;

They have their exits and their entrances; and one man
in his time
plays many parts, his acts being seven ages.

At first the infant,
mewling and puking in the nurse's arms.

And then
the whining schoolboy,
with his satchel, and shining morning face,
creeping like a snail unwillingly to school. And then

the lover,
Sighing like a furnace, with a woeful ballad made
to his mistress' eyebrow.

Then a soldier, full of strange oaths -

 

[champagne1982]

Are you suggesting we be anti-semantic?

Sing a song of sixpence,
A pocket full of rye,
Four and twenty blackbirds,
Baked in a pie.
When the pie was opened,
The birds began to sing.
Was this not a dainty dish
To set before the King?

I assume this is enjambment...I wonder if this was passed down orally before it was written down?

it is enjambment.

but if it was passed down orally, how would one know it was enjambed?

wouldn't you hear it like this?:

Was this not a dainty dish to set before the King?

here's the definition -- the breaking of a syntactic unit (a phrase, clause, or sentence) by the end of a line or between two verses. Its opposite is end-stopping, where each linguistic unit corresponds with a single line.

how does one know where the break is unless they're looking at it?

enjambment seems visual to me.

Well, the person writing it down, can hear the meter. Just count the syllables...

When the pie was o pen'd Six
the birds be gan to sing. Six
Wasn't that a dain ty dish Six
to set be fore the king? Six

The line breaks are clear, it seems.

 

[ghost_girl]

okay Champ, you wanted to see my form poems, theres one on my bug day afternoon thread, I pulled it to the front just for you. God help me, it sucks.

And that will never happen again..me writing a sonnet, that is

 

[champagne1982]

okay Champ, you wanted to see my form poems, theres one on my bug day afternoon thread, I pulled it to the front just for you. God help me, it sucks.

And that will never happen again..me writing a sonnet, that is

Now, g_g, you're too close to that to read it objectively. I see a piece, that, when read aloud, could be less endstopped than you see and much smoother inside, say a southern voice. Remember, poetry is an aural art before it is truly visual. Writing them down and sharing them with other voices shows where the variations in this wonderous English can transform our thoughts.

p.s. I think you're lying about the "never again" bit. I'll bet you've got a sock drawer full of 'em too.

Thanks for letting me read that one again, I know I've seen it before.

 

[ghost_girl]

Now, g_g, you're too close to that to read it objectively. I see a piece, that, when read aloud, could be less endstopped than you see and much smoother inside, say a southern voice. Remember, poetry is an aural art before it is truly visual. Writing them down and sharing them with other voices shows where the variations in this wonderous English can transform our thoughts.

p.s. I think you're lying about the "never again" bit. I'll bet you've got a sock drawer full of 'em too.

Thanks for letting me read that one again, I know I've seen it before.

no, Carrie, I really truly don't have a drawer full. I'm one of those people who, when faced with something they deem impossible, moves on to something more tangible, more within her own abilities. I wasn't put here to write sonnets, but there are those who were and I will read and enjoy them. hell, i even wrote a sestina and threw it away. It was that bad, lol

I don't feel less-than because of it, just had someone important to me emphasize that i should work my talents and save the impossible stuff for when I was bored. thats a paraphrase, I would say, but the essence of it.

thanks for re-reading

j