Writer's Question

[Seattle Zack]

Punctuation (almost) always goes inside the quote. Is that better? Although I would argue that my exceptions still apply.

Seriously, why not look in a book? A romance novel, a techno thriller, it doesn't reslly matter. Dialogue and exposition are fairly standard, it's not a big mystery how to punctuate it.

 

[sr71plt]

"it's not a big mystery how to punctuate it."

Yep, that's a frequently voiced phrase in publishing house editorial offices--usually spoken in exasperation as yet another author is encountered who has decided that there are no standards her/his gem of a tome is (or should be) bound to.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

Punctuation (almost) always goes inside the quote. Is that better? Although I would argue that my exceptions still apply.

Seriously, why not look in a book? A romance novel, a techno thriller, it doesn't reslly matter. Dialogue and exposition are fairly standard, it's not a big mystery how to punctuate it.

Yup, I used Tom Clancy a lot at one time...

 

[snooper]

Not quite sure the reason/justification for the unprovoked dig, Snooper--but you'll no doubt blame any backbiting on this thread on me now.

Actually I agree with you that quoting sources is a good idea.

 

[snooper]

i feel an urge ...

Feel free to indulge.

... just out of curiousity - and because I'm too damn lazy to research it myself - I have a quick question regarding the Brits and quotations. Is it the standard in the UK to only use a single quotation mark for spoken dialog? ...

I asked my technical book publisher about this. He asked the fiction side and they said, "It saves paper, and these days that matters."

 

[RogueLurker]

I hadn't considered the cost savings of paper/ink. I'm not sure how many pages you would save by using a single quotation as opposed to a double one - but I do have a confirmation now that single quotes are acceptable (but not sure if they are acceptable for Lit).

And as for my indulgence ... I dedicate this one to Snooper ...

(don't worry, I will grow tired of my new trick of inserting images into posts - but for now, it's a shiny and new skill and I must use it as often as I can)

 

[CopyCarver]

I hadn't considered the cost savings of paper/ink. I'm not sure how many pages you would save by using a single quotation as opposed to a double one - but I do have a confirmation now that single quotes are acceptable (but not sure if they are acceptable for Lit).

And as for my indulgence ... I dedicate this one to Snooper ...

(don't worry, I will grow tired of my new trick of inserting images into posts - but for now, it's a shiny and new skill and I must use it as often as I can)

Some writers seem addicted to them, even after an editor explains the conventions of usage, and Lit usually accepts them. I wouldn't bet my life that they're always accepted but they seem to get through most of the time.

BTW, the Vegas Line is 30-to-1 that your av will KO your image within one round.

 

[RogueLurker]

Some writers seem addicted to them, even after an editor explains the conventions of usage, and Lit usually accepts them. I wouldn't bet my life that they're always accepted but they seem to get through most of the time.

BTW, the Vegas Line is 30-to-1 that your av will KO your image within one round.

I'll keep pushing for double quotes - the site may not always be consistent, but I can be.

As for my AV vs a kitten? Summer just sits there with a silly doggie grin while the cats bat her with their paws.

 

[CopyCarver]

I'll keep pushing for double quotes - the site may not always be consistent, but I can be. QUOTE]



Good luck with the pushing. I once had a private client who insisted on using okinas in place of quotation marks. ("But they're so cute!") When a major publisher insisted on standardizing the quotes (big surprise) she pulled the ms. and took it to a subsidy house instead. Go figure. I guess some people form meaningful relationships with punctuation.

 

[palisa]

Quotes and punctuation

The differences between British and US punctuation/quotes rules only come into play for commas and periods.

In US English, commas and periods always come before the quote marks -- no exceptions.

Other punctuation marks go in or out of the quotes depending on whether the punctuation is part of the quoted passage.

The British scrap the first rule and follow the second for all punctuation, including periods and commas.

Single/double quotes is not as hard-and-fast a rule; in the UK, especially, single quotes are often used but the BBC, to quote one authority, prefers double quotes.

There were some errors in the OP's example -- it is not true that punctuation never goes inside quote markes, whether British, US or any other flavor of English.

 

[sr71plt]

Doesn't your paragraph five contradict your paragraph one, Palisa? In fact, the UK system for humanities publishing (which would include erotica) frequently uses single quotes at the first level and double quotes at the second level, the reverse of the U.S. system (see Chicago Manual of Style, 11.33).

 

[palisa]

I was a little bit sloppy in paragraph 1. I should have said "punctuation within or outside of quotes" rather than the shorthand "punctuation/quotes." I was not speaking of single vs. double quotes; the punctuation rules for each style are independent of whether the quotes are single or double.

I don't doubt that some British style guides use the system you mention; a lot of US books I've read do the same thing. My only point is that in the US, the style is much more often double quotes, and at least one UK authority, the Beeb, uses double quotes as its style. (I have no idea what kind of a ratio there is in UK stylebooks between the two usages.)

On the Beeb Web site, for example, I found this passage in a news story about the exclusion zone at Chernobyl:

"It suggests to us that barn swallows are not alone; there are many other species that appear to be affected in a similar way," Professor Mousseau told BBC News.

"This paper also suggests that birds feeding on insects that are living in the upper surface of the soil, where contaminates are highest, seem to be most likely to be missing or depressed."

I couldn't find a quote-within-quote, but the double quotes are sufficient to make the point, I think.

I browsed through the MHRA stylebook just now; there evidently are more differences between British and US punctuation usage than I had thought. Although the guidlines assume a lot of prior knowledge (for example, there is no explicit statement that a quotation begins with single quotes), some of the examples suggest that British usage does not set off an introduction to a quote with a comma. For example, from the stylebook:

Mrs Grose replies that ‘Master Miles only said ‘‘We must do nothing but what she likes!’’’.

Hmmm...Interesting that there's no period after "Mrs" and no comma after "said." Also, in US usage, "replies that" implies an indirect quote and no quote marks at all would be used. For a direct quote, the word "that" would usually be omitted.

 

[sr71plt]

Think this is an apples/oranges issue. I've worked with both the BBC and U.S. news agencies. News agency style (predominated by Associated Press style in the United States) is an entirely different world from editorial style--either in the United States or UK--for short stories of any genre. Unfortunately, it's simply irrelevant and covering the issue with confusing fog to quote either BBC or AP style as applying to anything this Web site deals with in terms of writing style. (Still it's better than not following any style at all.)

Responding to another side trip taken here, it's almost equally apples/oranges to rely on Strunk and White for style on published short stories (and posting on a Web site constitutes publication). Strunk and White is for high school term papers (as Turabian is for college papers). The world of publishing doesn't use them. Most of the guidance they give is the same as those authorities publishing uses, but some isn't, and often authors who haven't graduated to the professional world go red faced with indignation when they're told that Strunk and White and Turabian aren't authorities beyond the school house. (Still they're better than not following any style at all.)

That's just the way it is. The writers don't get a vote on it.

 

[starrkers]

That may be so for real world publication. But don't be so quick to throw out dear old Strunk and White.
Here are the top three recommendations for writers in the FAQ of this site

** Guide for Amateur Writers of Erotica - An awesome writing resource that covers all you need to know to write excellent erotic stories.

** Strunk and White's Elements of Style - An free online guide to the basics every writer should know.

** The Columbia Guide to Standard American English Usage - An online guide to the basics every writer should know.

And seeing as we're writing for this site, I guess we should use its chosen references.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I do agree that using any standardized style and learning its rules carefully is better than not doing so. Whether one learns every whim of one's future publisher or not, one does learn the rules that everyone agrees on, at least - and more importantly, one learns that there are rules and progresses away from the "some people just do grammar well" and "use a comma whenever you would naturally pause" schools of quasi-instinctive (and generally incorrect) grammar. The beginning of any mastery of grammar is accepting that it's a system of arbitrary rules that need to be studied and committed to memory. Once you're past that hurdle, it's all much easier.

 

[sr71plt]

"And seeing as we're writing for this site, I guess we should use its chosen references."

Agree. If those are the references the site uses, those would be the authorities here. (Getting beyond the basics can be very interesting, however.)

When in doubt, read the FAQs.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

That may be so for real world publication. But don't be so quick to throw out dear old Strunk and White.

I find Strunk and White quite handy at times, both for writing here, and writing work related stuff.

 

[Seattle Zack]

I had a couple of articles from a (U.K., I assume) author for my paying gig and it took me some time to catch all the "realises" and single-quotes that were standards for his normal submissions. "You Americans," he sighed in one e-mail. Yup, copyediting is a thankless profession. We rage against the dying of the light.

 

[sr71plt]

My first internatonal news agency job was translating BBC British into "American." So, I can feel your pain, Seattle Zack.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Recently I've had a story rejected for failure to include commas (and other punctuation) inside of quotation marks. As an example I would write "I wish I could create", Jim said in amazement, "a work of art such as that".

What I am being told is that the writer's convention advises that the sentence should be written "I wish I could create," Jim said in amazement, "a work of art such as that."

I have always been taught that NOTHING other than words are supposed to be inside of quotes. Quotes used to highlight a specific word or phrase, or to address the spoken word.

All 14 of my other stories were accepted with quotes used as in my first example.

I would appreciate any insight you all might have to share.

Thank you!!

There are more issues than this which should be clarified. And if I'm wrong I'm sure I'll be suitably punished (wistful smile)

This is based on editing stories, by the way, which is what I see.

If you open a parenthesis within a sentence, close it before the period.

EX: She was such a doll (and so hot).

If you add a sentence within parenthesis, the period comes before closing the parenthesis.

She was such a doll. (And so hot.)

If you elect to use quotes within a sentence, the comma comes after.

"She was such a 'doll',"

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

Okay (OK, or Okay), I'll crawl back under my pet rock.

 

[starrkers]

My first internatonal news agency job was translating BBC British into "American." So, I can feel your pain, Seattle Zack.

As a newspaper sub-editor, I spent half my life turning US spelling into Australian - I think we've all been there!

 

[CopyCarver]

There are more issues than this which should be clarified. And if I'm wrong I'm sure I'll be suitably punished (wistful smile)

This is based on editing stories, by the way, which is what I see.

If you open a parenthesis within a sentence, close it before the period.

EX: She was such a doll (and so hot).

If you add a sentence within parenthesis, the period comes before closing the parenthesis.

She was such a doll. (And so hot.)

If you elect to use quotes within a sentence, the comma comes after.

"She was such a 'doll',"

Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.

Okay (OK, or Okay), I'll crawl back under my pet rock.

At the risk of sounding like Hank Hill, yep.

 

[palisa]

If you elect to use quotes within a sentence, the comma comes after.

"She was such a 'doll',"

That would be the British quotation/punctuation style, I think. Following the rule that all commas and periods go inside quote marks, the US usage would be "She was such a 'doll,'" ...

On another point, there's no necessity, IMO, to put "doll" in quotes. It would be done on the theory that it's an unusual usage, but the usage here is quite common. Lynne Truss rails humorously about this question. I hasten to add that I do realize you were simply looking for a quick example to make the punctuation point.

I'm under the rock next to you...

 

[BlackShanglan]

That would be the British quotation/punctuation style, I think. Following the rule that all commas and periods go inside quote marks, the US usage would be "She was such a 'doll,'" ...

On another point, there's no necessity, IMO, to put "doll" in quotes. It would be done on the theory that it's an unusual usage, but the usage here is quite common. Lynne Truss rails humorously about this question. I hasten to add that I do realize you were simply looking for a quick example to make the punctuation point.

I'm under the rock next to you...

*laugh* I like your closure. I also very much like your point on whether "doll" would need to be in quotation marks in the example, and, as well, your charmingly humble and contrite acknowledgement that the example was probably hastily chosen.

You seem a likable sort.

 

[CopyCarver]

*laugh* I like your closure. I also very much like your point on whether "doll" would need to be in quotation marks in the example, and, as well, your charmingly humble and contrite acknowledgement that the example was probably hastily chosen.

You seem a likable sort.

I, personally, wouldn't use quotation marks around doll either, since the term is is such widespread usage, but many writers would--and do. And that reprises a point that was made much earlier: punctuation, like usage, is to an increasing degree a matter of the preferences of the author and/or the publisher rather than of authoritarian fiats. Other than in academic writing or other formal usage, the old "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots" have largely been replaced by the idea that clarity, flow, and personal taste are the final arbiter, unless they're egregiously wrong.