Your Opinion: Requests to post stories on other sites

[Bob Peale]

One Last Thought...

Oh well, better late than never.

Recently, a really nasty piece of ugly happened, that I just so happened to include Laurel in on the correspondence. She asked that I post the exchange here to provide some real life experience on this subject.

First, let me say that I have posted to multiple sites; however, I don't allow everything to be reposted. Laurel and Manu have been good to me, and in turn I personally feel that they deserve the exclusive rights to display some of my stuff. My heart belongs to Lit, and although I may wander occasionally, I'll never stray

Anyway, to make a long story short (always beware a writer or an actor that uses that phrase; otherwise, be prepared to pull up a chair, kick off your shoes and stay awhile!), during a periodic websearch on my name, I came across a site that displayed a few of my stories without my permission. Two things bothered me about this: (1) Their disclaimer; and (2) the bloody thing had been lifted right from Lit!

Anyway, here is the exchange:

Recently, while surfing the net and doing a check on my name, I came across your site and two of my stories:

Yard Work
Scratching an Itch

Upon further investigation, I also came across the following statement on your submit page:

By uploading a story to WomenOnTheWeb.com, I agree that the story is my own and that I authorize its use and that the submitted story becomes the copyright property of WomenOnTheWeb.com, and that WomenOnTheWeb.com and FREYA Communications, Inc., may use, display, and reproduce the story in print and/or electronically, including display on the World Wide Web without further compensation from Women On The Web® and/or FREYA Communications, Inc.

Now, a couple of points:

There is simply NO WAY on God's green earth that I would ever have submitted a story to your site under those conditions. I have retained copyright to every single story I've ever written, and the thought that I would provide a story, especially one that had been previously submitted to other sites, under those terms is ludicrous.

Secondly, the format of the story is IDENTICAL to that on http://www.literotica.com, down to the splitting of the Yard Work into two parts. Ironically, that is the only place in the world where that story appears in that form; the format was developed by the webmistress at Literotica to speed up the loading. I originally submitted it as one entry.

It appears that the stories that appear on your site by me were taken directly from Literotica. If they don't have a problem with it, I don't have a problem with it, but I will not consent to the display of my stories at the expense
of my copyright. If that is a requirement for display, please remove them immediately.

If you have any questions, please feel free to drop me a line.


Regards,
Bob Peale


And their response:

Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:32:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Please Remove My Stories Immediately
From: "Craig <snip>" <snip>
To: Bob Peale

Thanks for your email, Bob,

Let me clear up some confusion for you. Certainly you retain the copyrights to your stories. We are proud to be able to post your fine works.

<--Confusion!?! Porn writing aside, I'm fairly literate. "The submitted story becomes the copyright property of WomenOnTheWeb.com" is pretty bloody crystal clear!-->

The disclaimer written online is to protect us from those amateur submissions that are received by anonymous authors, or authors with no email address, no way of ever contacting the author in the future.

<--Then why doesn't the disclaimer say something like, "Please note: Any stories submitted anonymously becomes the copyright property of WomenOnTheWeb.com"? That didn't seem so hard? Likewise, I know my email address is on Lit: I have the hate mail to prove it!-->

If at any time you wish your stories removed, modified (in the event you rework, etc), we will be more than happy to do so. It is not our intent to lay claim to your work. Your stories are your property and will remain so.

<--<Whipping out the dictionary> Can you guys find other definitions for the words "becomes", "copyright" and "property"? My dictionary seems to be a little out of date apparently!-->

Furthermore, we are happy to post your email address, website address, etc in the text of your work if you so desire feedback, site promotion, etc. Similarly, if you do not wish your email or website address posted, we will honor your wishes as well and will only keep in our records for future contact, etc.

<-- Hell, it was there to start with? Why did I have to bitch before this offer was made?-->

If you have any additional questions, or I may be of further clarification, kindly advise via email or call me at the toll free number listed below at your convenience.

Many thanks for your interest and support of Women On The Web. We're glad you're here.

<--Where's that damn dictionary? I thought "support" at least involved consent (be it active or passive) on the part of an individual or group. $^%&^%$ Webster's!-->


Best regards,


Craig <snip>,
Director Online Sales and Content
Freya Communications, Inc.
Women On The Web, Men On The Net.
<snip>


So there's my saga. Miraculously, my stories have since disappeared from the site, but as a precaution I will probably glance at every single one up there to make sure that they are not buried somewhere. I would recommend that other authors take a look on the site (womenontheweb.com)...I know I saw Viper's "The Ancient Prophecy" series there.


Peace,
Bob

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

my 2 cents

I am new here. I just started writing erotica about a year ago. I didn't get the courage to publish it until 6 months ago. However, before my little obsession with erotic stories, I wrote gothic romances and horror stories, many of which were published in very prolific places.

The first story I ever had published went to one publisher of a magazine. I wrote a few more for that magazine. Months later, another magazine called me and asked if they could publish the story, or some of my work. Understand, that if I had said no, I never would have progressed as a writer. A year later I had published stories with six different publications, all of whom called me because they had seen my work elsewhere. How else would they have seen it? That is a FACT of the business. Being a writer means getting your work seen by MANY people, not just one particular group or publication.

As for erotica, there really are different levels of erotic writing, in my opinion. Some stories are no-plot sex stories. We all write a few of those. They are good sometimes. There are pornographic stories with a plot. Those can be good too. That is what most of us write. Then, there are art stories, where the plot, the feeling, the story itself are the main focus, the sex doesn't really matter. With erotica, you don't make money (most of the time), and therefore you do it mainly for two reasons:
1. For yourself.
2. For others.

If you do it for others, then you want people to read it. Publishing work in many different places is the progress of being an author. It is exposure. It is growing. While Literotica, I think, is the best site on the net for writers of this genre, there are other places, budding ones and older ones as well, who do have integrity, who do have taste, and who do have morals.

As for plagerism concerns. I have had my work plagerized. Most authors have. It is a hazard of writing. A job corner you have to get around. If you fear this so much that you limit your potential, you are locking yourself in a box. It is harsh, but deal with it. You suck it up and say "What an a-hole." and you go on back to the keyboard and write some more. Copyright laws and the internet are words that really don't mean shit in the same sentance, so just deal with it. As of now, if someone steals your story, there is very little you can do about it. That sucks but it is the truth, and we deal with that.

Okay, I am off my soapbox now
Anybody want a cookie?

Luv,
S

 

[Samuari]

Sateema Lunasi, very well said, by someone who has been arround the block once or twice. It still galls me to think that there are people out there who will use our work for their gain without permission. While it may be impossible to enforce the copywrite laws on the internet, untill we have some other way of protecting our property, I think that we have to try.

I'm not going to be obcessed with it, but I will defend my work when I see some one stealing it. But you are right in the long run, the best thing to do is to suck it up and get back to the keyboard.

By the way welcome to our little asylum.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I went to Women on the Web and saw tons of Literotica Authors there. Queerly enough, almost all of their stories are by Lit authors, and stories I recognize as being posted here.

Bob, darling, You have Suburban Sprawl posted there now as well, don't know if you did it on purpose or not, but there you go.

Lets see...

Tawny T
Brodosis
Tidewater
Patrick
Leslie Lee
TopGun115
Luvnthots
Tristmegistis
Miami Cuban
Bradley Stoke
Sean Matthews
Michael Herrick
Tinman
Sparky Kronkite
Unplugged
Dutchboy
Glenn Buehring


It seems with the exception of two writers the adultery category at this place is populated with stories that have been written here. That's just one category.

[Edited by KillerMuffin on 03-20-2001 at 09:38 AM]

 

[Bob Peale]

Re: my 2 cents

I am new here. I just started writing erotica about a year ago. I didn't get the courage to publish it until 6 months ago.

Welcome aboard "S". Having read your stuff, I for one thinks our little slice of smut is a better place for having you join it!

The first story I ever had published went to one publisher of a magazine. I wrote a few more for that magazine. Months later, another magazine called me and asked if they could publish the story, or some of my work. Understand, that if I had said no, I never would have progressed as a writer. A year later I had published stories with six different publications, all of whom called me because they had seen my work elsewhere. How else would they have seen it? That is a FACT of the business. Being a writer means getting your work seen by MANY people, not just one particular group or publication.

I agree with you wholeheartedly! However, in your scenario, YOU granted permission. The point of my post, specifically as a "Beaware", is that in that case, there was a site that didn't even ask, then crafted a statement that said if they derived profit, I was SOL. That wouldn't be so bad accept by carrying my name, it gave the impression that I CONSENTED to those ridiculous terms.

Hey, if you're going to try to screw me, I'm a big boy; I can take it. But don't imply that I helped you apply the lube .

As for plagerism concerns. I have had my work plagerized. Most authors have. It is a hazard of writing. A job corner you have to get around. If you fear this so much that you limit your potential, you are locking yourself in a box. It is harsh, but deal with it. You suck it up and say "What an a-hole." and you go on back to the keyboard and write some more. Copyright laws and the internet are words that really don't mean shit in the same sentance, so just deal with it.

On this point, I disagree, at least in part, but I'll defend your right to assert it to the death. There are a couple of things you have to consider.

Some of us have been around a long time, and have granted fairly unlimited rights to the people that display our work. However, there have been cases where work has been provided on a more exclusive basis, and something like the WomenOnTheWeb disclaimer invalids a legal contract that involves renumeration; so in that case, a writer gets screwed, flipped over, and screwed again. Surprisingly, more people have been paid than you might think, and because they have entered into a legitimate business arrangement, they are constrained by the laws of the physical world.

There are simple ways to preserve copyright that protect you and any site that displays your work. As you said, we're all in this for the same reason; because we have a gift that bring others pleasure and we want to share it (OK you guys, minds out of the gutter!)

Additionally, at issue here is the concept of implied consent. My stuff shows up willingly and unwillingly at more sites that I care to count, so much so that I have a considerable amount of email accusing ME of flooding! Like I had anything to do with it! I came to grips with it a long time ago, but it doesn't mean I have to accept it.

The good news is that porn is a several billion dollar business, and the return on online porn is even greater than traditional lines because the operating costs typically are a lot lower. I can tell you from personal experience is that what a lot of circumspect sites fear more than anything else is an artist (writer, model, etc.) who is willing to acknowledge their body of work and submit to public scrutiny to defend their work. The danger is that once one person comes forth, the rest follow.

I do this for fun; hell, if it came out in public that I wrote smut, I'd probably get a promotion!

Anybody want a cookie?

Yes, chocolate chip please

I had no idea that I cared so much about this until I wrote it down. Thank you for providing an articulate and well written counterpoint; I really thought I was Johnny come lately on this, but it looks like I just stirred the embers!


Peace,
Bob

[Edited by Bob Peale on 03-20-2001 at 01:32 PM]

 

[Ray Dario]

Okay, now I'm offended! I did a search of the internet and apparently no one thought my stories were even worth stealing!

{hanging head in shame}

Ray

 

[Bob Peale]

Okay, now I'm offended! I did a search of the internet and apparently no one thought my stories were even worth stealing!

{hanging head in shame}

Ray

<Patting Ray On The Back>

There, there Ray, it's ok. Remember, ASSASINATION is really the sincerest form of flattery.


Bob

 

[Ray Dario]

<Patting Ray On The Back>

There, there Ray, it's ok. Remember, ASSASINATION is really the sincerest form of flattery.


Bob

That being true, then there are some people I need to go flatter!

Ray

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

tush, I mean touche

I agree with ALL of you in a bizarre way. I wish I could fight for my work, and not have A-Holes (I won't mention Stephen J. Foley's name) get away with stealing my work. What I maybe didn't get across as the point of my rant is that authors should not FEAR anyone. Don't fear plagerism. If you fear it, it wins. If you can't beat em, fuck em, and if you can't fuck em, pee on em. Don't let people limit you.

I will relay my favorite quote:
"If you have no legs, run.
If you have no voice, scream.
If you have no hope, create."

*crawling off the soap box now with her cookie*

S

 

[nitengale]

Re: tush, I mean touche

*crawling off the soap box now with her cookie*

S

I'd like to know what kind of cookies? =)

 

[Sateema Lunasi]

Soft Batch, Chocolate chip with M&M's.

*hugs the cookie to her so Nitengale does not steal it*

 

[Bob Peale]

Soft Batch, Chocolate chip with M&M's.

*hugs the cookie to her so Nitengale does not steal it*

Soft Batch, Chocolate chip with M&M's!?! If I ask really nice, could I have just a nibble? I'll be your best friend...

Seriously "S", I think what you say is absolutely correct. Ironically, I received requests from three more sites during the course of this discourse, and they all bear consideration. I fully concur that not to publish for fear of unauthorized posting is counterproductive; as you said, once it's up, it's out of our control with respect to someone doing the old cut-and-paste shuffle.

KM's post about everybody up at WomenOnTheWeb validates one thing...we really do have a lot of great writers here on Lit!

And Ray, now don't you go just a flatterin' everybody, ya hear!


Peace,
Bob

 

[Ray Dario]

Bob, I don't have time to flatten, uh, flatter anyone right now. I am busy concocting a scheme to steal my own stories and post them on a site without my permission so that I can join the plagiarized elite.

Ray

 

[Bob Peale]

Bob, I don't have time to flatten, uh, flatter anyone right now. I am busy concocting a scheme to steal my own stories and post them on a site without my permission so that I can join the plagiarized elite.

Ray

Hmmm, could become a cottage indusrty...oh, wait; it already is!

 

[Tawny T]

I agree with Madame Pandora. The stories belong to the writer. I had another site ask to post some of my stories a couple of years ago. I asked Laurel if she had any heartburn with that. She said the same thing she said here, the stories belong to the author, and she had no objection. Since then I have stories on about 5 nets.

I select the sites carefully. If someone is just starting a new site, I want to see it developed first, before I send anything to it. My name is on that story!

Incidentally, Laurel and Manu are very good about checking other sites for stolen stories. They recent queried me about a site that had a story of mine on it, and I had given that site permission to post my stories.

 

[Bob Peale]

Update: Women On The Web

Well, it seems we've come to terms. That odious disclaimer is gone, and most of my stories at least say:

by Bob Peale ©

and includes my email address. I do notice that so far, I'm one of the few authors on there with that distinction.

Two things and then I'm letting this puppy drop like a bad habit!

First, some of you may find it amusing that at least four of the stories that were "appropriated", the disclaimer includes the following statement:

Additional stories can be found at http://www.literotica.com. Just go to the Stories section, select Indexed By Author, and look for Bob Peale. While you're there, check out some of the other great stories posted by other authors!

LOL! I guess they've got former Florida recount officials working in the proofreading department over there!

And second, as evidence that when the proofreading department filled up, the rest of the officials moved to story categorizations, I found the following stories listed as follows:

Yard Work: Pt. I (Fetish
Yard Work Pt. II (Fetish)
Scratching An Itch: Part I (Marital Bliss)
Scratching An Itch: Part II (Marital Bliss)
Scratching An Itch: Part III (Marital Bliss)
Scratching An Itch: Part IV (Marital Bliss)
Scratching An Itch: Part V (Marital Bliss)
Suburban Sprawl: Pt. I (Family)
Suburban Sprawl: Pt II (Family)
Just Another Day At The Office: Pt. I (BBW)

Now, if any of you have read these stories on Lit, you'll realize just how hysterical this is. Suburban Sprawl in the Family category? I had to read the thing just to make sure it was mine! (Tawny, you may want to go up there and check where they stuck YOUR stories

Anyway, so ends this chapter. As I said, I like exposure as much as the next author, and while there are ome things that I write exclusively for Lit, there are others that are scattered throughout the four corners of the net and I'm fine with that. I just am not willing to give up my control without a fight


Peace,
Bob

 

[KillerMuffin]

I agree with Madame Pandora. The stories belong to the writer.

Hate to rain on your parade TT. International law and US law doesn't particularly care about yours or MP's opinion.

Any created work belongs to one entity. The Copyright holder. This is a simple concept, I'm sure you've gotten it.

Law provides that the creator is the copyright holder until that copyright is transferred. If your stories are posted at Women on the Web, and they are Tawny, then according to the site the copyrights belong to them. This means that you no longer have a say in what they do with them. I suggest you check them out and get your stories yanked.

Copyright is law, not opinion.

 

[Whispersecret]

Ray, don't despair. Your stories may still have been stolen, but the thief may have put a fake name on them.

 

[BlackDarwin]

Being new to literotica, I can't say that I have developed a strong loyalty to what I've discovered is a great machine for compiling and distributing work to a wide audience. However, I HAVE noticed that the people here are intelligent and serious about their work, so I can understand the urge to keep it all "in-house" and help the community grow. I would suggest trying to integrate the link into my stories wherever asked to publish stuff. ie; "If you liked, 'Diffr'nt Strokes Greek Holiday', check out my other stories at http://www.literotica.com/hannahbanana/etc."

Regarding copyright, an author can sell or release his copyright to a work by signing off of in a publishing contract. Its happened in the past where, to become part of a published anthology, web authors gave the rights to the publishing house. Granted, its rare and usually the result of careless or desperate authors, but it does happen. It pays to read the "CLICK HERE TO CONTINUE" agreements.

The way I regard my copyright (at least to my erotic titles) I know my stories were written by me, or at least my alter ego "BlackDarwin" and the people I share them with in the real world know I wrote them, but since I don't really have the stones to reveal my real name, I'm in no position to defend my copyright of it. A copyright is legal only insofar as someone makes a point of protecting it. A good case in point is the MP3 struggle. Some authors despise it, some embrace it so you have artists (more often publishers) spending millions in court to have their songs banished from free 'net and others who intentionally post them. It is stil a conflict of idea and law.

So though I hold the legal copyright on my humble little handful of stories, I choose to make my stories public domain. I'm not interested in protecting my ownership of them any more than I am the ownership of an old pair of sneakers. If some moron wants to snag "Dark Damsel" as his own, its his own neurosis. If he tried to snag the stuff I actually sign my own name to, then there'd be a problem.

I appreciated some folks asking my permission and I only ask that my byline be linked to my email for feedback, good or bad, reference my bio and related stories posted to literotica, and to liven up the gray pages with pictures. I assume if someone appreciates the stories enough to post them, they'd have respect enough to honor my requests.

Thanks for making this a fun experience, by the way. The feedback I've gotten from readers has been very encouraginging, intelligent and educational.

-BD

 

[Weird Harold]

So though I hold the legal copyright on my humble little handful of stories, I choose to make my stories public domain. I'm not interested in protecting my ownership of them any more than I am the ownership of an old pair of sneakers. If some moron wants to snag "Dark Damsel" as his own, its his own neurosis. If he tried to snag the stuff I actually sign my own name to, then there'd be a problem.

I'm not quite sure that you mean you release the stories to the public domain while retaining the legal copyright, because legally, the two concepts are opposites.

I think rather that you permit the free posting of your stories without written permission simply by not enforcing your copyright.

I really don't care if someone posts my stories elsewhere as ong as my work isn't claimed by someone else, and I get a cut of any profits made.

As long as my stories are available for the public to read for free, they are fulfilling their purpose. I personally won't post them in more than one place at a time, because I really get tired of digging through stories that are on nearly every free site to find something new. I want people to know that when they see "my" byline that it's not a story they've seen elsewhere.

 

[BlackDarwin]

Under the legal definition, you're right. Public Domain has a rigidly defined legal definition in copyright law, which is very selective. When I say that work under "BlackDarwin" is public domain, I do mean that I forfeit my legal rights to reproduce the stories exclusively and allow whoever wants them to use them as they see fit. As I see it, "BlackDarwin" is as fictitious as the subjects in my stories, so his stories belong to the world.

As a writer, I'm not in it for the money. It cost me nothing to write them...or no more than if I spent the time swimming or making love to my girlfriend. They were a joy ranking somewhere between the two. But I don't expect to be compensated for that pleasure. If I did, I'd put my real name on them and get an agent and lawyer to protect those rights.

I know, even Kerouac and Salinger have lawyers to protect the gifts they gave the world in literary form, but let's face it...there's a big difference between Anne Rice and Anne Rouchelle.

 

[Weird Harold]

As I see it, "BlackDarwin" is as fictitious as the subjects in my stories, so his stories belong to the world

Neither "Dirty Old Man" nor "Weird Harold" have birth certificates either. Using a psuedonym doesn't keep you from retaining the copyright.

Many successful authors write under psuedonyms for reasons of their own, yet the copyrights under those psuedonyms are as valid as those attributed to the names on their birth certificates.

 

[BlackDarwin]

Again, you're absolutely right.

By law I could stand up and say, "Hey! don't bogart my porn, dude!" But maybe its like the guy at the carny who does sketches of people for $10 a head who technically owns the copyright, but who doesn't care if you make copies or reproduce it online because its made especially for the audience. The difference I see is that I wrote the first 12 parts of Dark Damsel for specific people who then invited me to share it with other readers. After the first 12, I give it to the readers who voted and sent feedback, helping decide its course, so I figure it belongs to them, too. They can post, copy, print, read and share it with my blessing.

So, technically and legally we are in complete agreement. Right now, I'm writing on-demand and having a great time. Its a great break, gets my girlfriend excited, and fuels my other writing. So I waive my right to claim "BlackDarwin" stories for financial gain and pity those pathetic freaks who would try to swap names on my byline.