When your marriage has 2 very different sexual appetites, what to do

[AlexBailey]

takers versus givers

I can’t avoid thinking, WishingBox, that the root cause of the problems we are discussing here is far far simpler than you have come to believe. After working yourself through countless books on the subject.

IMHO we are talking about the difference between wives able and willing to give something back to their husbands, and those who possess a parsimonious mindset. And some husbands also, in the case of Meeh81.

Nobody can convince me that a woman who claims to love her husband – is unable to return closeness to him and tenderness. Regardless of whatever may ail her. And it is also plainly obvious, without any need for a discussion, that 99% of such women can just as well give their man a handjob or a blowjob, without fainting or dieing in the process. And if she really feels strongly about him, she will even enjoy that; for the pleasure she gives to and invokes in her husband that way. Because all that is an integral part of loving one’s spouse.

Whereas any woman who requires as much coaxing and bribing and encouragement as many of you are describing it here, is plainly a self-centered TAKER, who has lost her caring and loving stance for her hubby a long time ago.

And let’s face it: modern western societies have been coddling women for decades, if not centuries, just to obtain access to their “feminine potential”. And nobody is going to deny to me that women, after having been spoiled to the hilt for such a long time, will not take advantage of all this. They’d be crazy if they did not.

OR they would be genuinely loving and caring human beings. OK, some such women do exist, I know from experience, but this applies only to very few women on the planet. And once a man finds such a rare unicorn, he better hold on to her with as much determination as possible. …. Which not every man is able to do; I know that from experience as well.

Your post is heavily laden with chauvinism. Unfortunately that chauvinism is the result of our society's conditioning... but conditions do change over time.

Take for instance the chauvinistic expectation that a man must be a tough fight-ready alpha-male, and that that type of man would be the most desirable because they could be the best type to provide for and protect a family. The advantage that kind of personality brings to a relationship is largely a thing of the past - the nerds have had their revenge, women are not helpless in the work world as social expectations once enforced. (A fish does not need a bicycle. ) But also a man (or woman) who lacks physical prowess but has a strong technical mind (a geek) can easily out earn a knuckle-dragging strong man without having any calluses.

The advent of computer technology is a huge threat to alpha-male dominance. No one needs a big strong tough guy to house and defend a family anymore, and a lot of the typical baggage that comes with that sort of masculinity, the kind that embraces "might makes right" is now seen as toxic - largely because it is anachronistic and demeaning. Why should anyone have to put up with a spouse who has rigid expectations that no longer have value in a modern relationship?

A "woman's place" in society is no longer strictly to be barefoot and pregnant and ready to serve- it never was their only path, just the most common one. A "good man" is now expected to have some emotional intelligence and empathy and many that don't struggle with the idea that their ability to bring in an income is no longer their defining quality.

In our modern society, a woman intrinsically owes a man nothing. A man intrinsically owes a woman nothing. When they get together they are on equal ground and need to garner each other's respect.

Takers versus givers? Lol. That can easily be applied to men just as much as you are ascribing to women.

 

[adamISOeve]

@ Alex, If you would take the trouble to actually read my my post, you could have saved yourself writing yours.
But reading another person's thoughts with an aim of understanding something .... that is an art which few people are mastering nowadays.

 

[Wishingbox]

Esther Vilar, a female MD,

I really like Esther’s work. I’m about half way through reading her “State of Afairs” and read two other books of hers. She has a ton of great perspectives and experiences.

I’m not trying ti simply justify my stance but give evidence that contradicts what you’re saying. Simply chocking it up to giving/not giving is overly simplified and leaves out all the other areas men and woman give of themselves.

By all means if people are with non givers then GTF outa there. But what to do when spouses are both giving so much to each other but it’s not what they each are asking for or need?

A "woman's place" in society is no longer strictly to be barefoot and pregnant and ready to serve- it never was their only path, just the most common one. A "good man" is now expected to have some emotional intelligence and empathy and many that don't struggle with the idea that their ability to bring in an income is no longer their defining quality.

This exactly what I’m getting at. Woman little to no choice to be independent and successful so they’ve historically been subject to depending on a man. Even examples of men who were gay just a generation ago had to marry a woman to succeed while they snuck into underground gay clubs.

Society is changing so rapidly but old ways of thinking and operating are still mixed into everything.

We no long have to stay with people we now must choose to. This means both men and woman are demanding more of each other.

Woman want and are demanding more emotional availability, home assistance and parental engagement. Men want and are are demanding woman who own their their sexual identity and drives. Simply putting out occasionally no longer suffices like a man providing a roof and food is enough.

But people don’t realize this shift until they’re in marriages and discover their preconceptions are being challenged by their partner.

Show up or leave. Endure and suffer is the least common or even expected perception anymore.

I think this is why polyamory is on the rise. People realize it’s pointless to cling in dependence to the other and doing so in a world like today is self destructive not self liberating and loving.

 

[Wishingbox]

But I am 100% certain, were you willing to read my post without prejudice -- and without feeling a need to justify what you are doing -- you would discover some truth in it.

We all read with prejudice. No one can interpret what others say in a vacuum. I said I agree with parts of what you’re saying.

But I don’t want a woman to begrudgingly out of obligation jack me off to me that’s gross and is a form spousal abuse.

And you don’t have to 100% believe or agree with me. But I am genuinely trying to understand your perspective and think I understand a lot of it. But none of us will be 100% understood or agreed with.

 

[AlexBailey]

@ Alex, If you would take the trouble to actually read my my post, you could have saved yourself writing yours.
But reading another person's thoughts with an aim of understanding something .... that is an art which few people are mastering nowadays.

Lol. Unwrap this one for me, and tell us how it isn't laden with chauvinism and toxic masculinity.

"Whereas any woman who requires as much coaxing and bribing and encouragement as many of you are describing it here, is plainly a self-centered TAKER, who has lost her caring and loving stance for her hubby a long time ago."


I mean I get what you are trying to say, it's just that your way of saying it reflects a misogynist belief that the man has already performed and provided everything expected of him while a woman who does not please her husband has fallen short of her duties regardless of what else she has done for the relationship.

Your choice of words and perspective say as much about you as they do about your ideas.

 

[adamISOeve]

Alex, I am convinced that anyone desiring to read chauvinism out of my post, can be successful in doing this.

But you see, I wrote an entire post, not only my conclusions. So to understand a conclusion, one would have to read the entire post, and do so with an open mind.

 

[AlexBailey]

Alex, I am convinced that anyone desiring to read chauvinism out of my post, can be successful in doing this.

But you see, I wrote an entire post, not only my conclusions. So to understand a conclusion, one would have to read the entire post, and do so with an open mind.

I am reading your posts with a broad and open mind. I can see the conceits and prejudices you use in your writing. Can you?

You included "And some husbands also, in the case of Meeh81." Was that your way of trying to be be broad minded? Your next paragraph goes on to say how you "can't be convinced" and that "...it is also plainly obvious, without any need for a discussion, that 99% of such women...."

I'm not setting you up as a strawman, you're doing that to yourself. If you want to communicate effectively you need to understand and recognize your own biases. In your writing you both deny they exist and use them to reinforce your argument.

There is a shred of coherence in your posts but it's buried under layers of assumptions and expectations of gender roles, and while you are being generous in assuming that males are doing their part, you are being parsimonious at best as to how your words assume women approach sexual reciprocation.

You are being myopic yet you're claiming your ideas are beyond reproach.

 

[Diosax]

 

[MrMikelobe1952]

Have a beer.

 

[Diosax]

Have a beer.

Great idea, will you bring me one? Just don't expect sex just bc of that!!

 

[MrMikelobe1952]

Great idea, will you bring me one? Just don't expect sex just bc of that!!

Here you go.

 

[MrMikelobe1952]

Great idea, will you bring me one? Just don't expect sex just bc of that!!

What if I offer this?

 

[Diosax]

Here you go.
View attachment 2166196

Sir when you said beer i didn't think you meant water!

 

[MrMikelobe1952]

Sir when you said beer i didn't think you meant water!

Well, sure, but then you said "no sex," so I had to cut my losses.
You didn't expect

 

[Diosax]

Well, sure, but then you said "no sex," so I had to cut my losses.
You didn't expect View attachment 2166204

So you're agreeing with us that some men only do nice things for women bc they're expecting sex at the end of it?

 

[MrMikelobe1952]

So you're agreeing with us that some men only do nice things for women bc they're expecting sex at the end of it?

Are you trying to say that you outsmarted me?

I thought we were relaxing, sharing a drink and watching the, um, the debate. Sharing a beer and some popcorn.
Who was it that brought up the question of sexual relations as part of our interaction? I mean, its not like we are in a darkened movie theater or anyting.

 

[Wishingbox]

ok I have my drink… honestly half way through it. It’s tasty and hitting the spot but I’m also reading and taking notes on books. So much good stuff out there by people exploring precisely what we’re talking about here.

 

[Wishingbox]

At the end of the day, we’re all so complex. We barely know why we feel what we feel and why we do what we do so we can’t be too harsh on our partners for feeling how they feel or responding how they respond.

This ultimately is why I try to take a step back and not chalk things up to “I want this” and “she wants that” so fuck’em, leave them unless they shape up.”

We do both of us a disservice if we aren’t honest about the complexities that make us who we are, whether that means being more horney and frustrated or not aroused and complacent.

 

[HersheyBelle]

IMO Jerking is not cheating



I chat, I masturbate, I do not screw around with women. I do jerkoff with other men in similar situations. I have not had sex w/ my loving wife in years. Getting my satisfaction by my own hand worked okay for years BUT I decided to add a social aspect. All guys masturbate. If they say they don't they're lying (maybe to themselves). Having a jerkoff buddy allows me to have some social and physical interaction and satisfaction without feeling extremely bad. I don't believe I am betraying my wife, I am saving myself from depression, despair and resentment. No harm, no foul.

What do you mean by a jerkoff buddy? Are y’all both in the same room jerking off to porn?

 

[HersheyBelle]

musing thoughts on this thread

Permit me to write you my own observations on this thread. I am glad to see it turned into more than just a whining session a la “my wife does not give me enough sex”. A few posts at least were constructive. Even though I find a masturbation session much more enjoyable, with a wife who is lacking sex wth her husband.

The way I see it, none of you has dared to put on the table a most probable root cause for the misery of many men: Once a woman has “hooked” her husband, her main target in life has been accomplished, so no more need for something like sex.

The second root cause was put on the table quite amicably by chiquitito: Many couples have never discovered how pleasurable sex can be for both, even when both have reached maturity. Including for supposedly incapacitated wives. Nobody is going to tell me that a loving wife – regardless of her physical deficiencies – is unable to derive pleasure from making her husband cummm. Female excuses along these lines are nothing but hogwash; ID say in 90% of all cases.

And finally nobody here has focused on the role that organized religion is playing, especially in the US of A. Where a large number of people still believe the bible is a book worth reading. And in many cases, reading the bible precludes reading the book that chiquitito suggested.

My own solution to the problem many men run into, especially when maturity sets in, has been to find a mail lover who not only has retained her desire for self-orgasms, but who also enjoys very much helping me with mine. And who enjoys just as much all the non-sexual aspects of FWB-ship. These non-sexual aspects are giving both of us at least as much as the sexual ones.

Please don’t take in this bull

 

[HersheyBelle]

So, I’m not one for writing much. I can’t stand texting. But I am definitely willing to phone chat with you or anyone else who wants to talk about this with a woman. I don’t have all the answers but I can give a woman’s perspective. Message me if you’d like to chat.

 

[Elite_Goblin]

I am STILL waiting to get a therepaist apointment. They do not return emails or calls!
Meanwhile, wifey and I seemed to be doing better communicating. Seemed. We actually got in bed 30 minutes early and talked about all kinds of stuff. Did light touching too. After 20 minutes of this, I asked if I could touch her a little more. She said, yes. Then I noticed that her hands had laid still and at her sides and she just seemed to stare away out of the open window. She was not a participant at all.

I am sorry, but I was pretty horny at this point, and asked what would she think if I pleasured myself instead. (last time I just left and did it, and she got mad, so I tried talking about it first this time). She was kinda stuttering....here? where? In some corner of the house? I said, here if it is OK with you? She asked if I wanted her to go somewhere else. I said no, not unless you want to.

So I got the lube out, and she says, "wait, lemme brush my teeth". So, I waited and got everything ready and cozy. She was at least going to make-out with me while I did myself.

She came into the bedroom, and was confused. She asked if I finished already. I said that I was waiting for her. Aparently, I misunderstood her. When she said. "wait lemme brush my teeth". She really meant "do not start until I leave the room, and please finish before I return".

She was looking around the room as if to find a corner to hide in. I asked her, if she wanted to be around or not for it. She tried to dodge the question, but I was persistant. She finally said that she has no desire to be with me when I pleasure myself. Only if it was "some fantasy" to have her watch me as I masturbated. I told her that my fantasy was for her to WANT to be part of it. End that shit again.

repeat frustration-rejection cycle.

I was going out on a limb and offering a very intimate part of myself, only to be told that she is not interested. I am absolutely sick and tired of getting these assinine surprises from her.

That therepaist date cannot come fast enough!!!!

 

[Mtnmike]

Wow its like reading my own story. Unfortunately i do the same, masturbate everyday to get my release. My husband is not sexually active we do it atleast once a week but i want more i even want it minimum twice a day. I love playing with my nipples and i want my husband to make me cum atleast once before we do it because he always leaves me hangging. I find myself more satisfied in masturbating then doing it

There are a lot of us in this situation, if you would like to talk about it, please let me know.

 

[Wishingbox]

repeat frustration-rejection cycle.

Aw man I feel for you. Fucking sucks the shame, exposure, vulnerability. I think it was a good idea to invite her and be open instead of hiding. It might be worth mentioning the miscommunication and how you’d rather not slink off and do it in “hiding” but clearly she doesn’t want to be present so you should feel any shame or issue doing it.

Still sucks and I’m sorry you experienced that rejection.

We’re heading out on a week long trip and it’s been about a week since we did anything. We’ve talked more over the past few months about how I’ve been let down and frustrated when I’m getting to the point where I’m worked up or hoping again but then we go on a trip or having people coming which means double the wiring. I have zero expectations or hopes that she’ll be aware of that and make any effort to do anything before we go.

Though I’m trying to be better at not taking it as a rejection or responding emotionally to her not doing anything. But since we’ve talked I’m curious if she’ll make any effort at all.

 

[adamISOeve]

@Wishingbox, The main reason why you and I don’t agree more, I see in our fundamental difference in handling complex problems. My focus lies on solutions. Hence I must achieve a reduction of complexity for this. You on the other hand focus on discovering ever more complexity in this particular problem you are facing. You said so again in your post#227

Our difference is exemplified by two different authors, with a first name Esther. In post #211 you had confused “my” author I mentioned, Esther Vilar, with “your” author Esther Perel (your author wrote the book you mentioned, not mine).

While MY Esther reduces the complexity of relationships between women and men to its few essential components, YOUR Esther writes a book with hundreds of pages, without ever concluding anything of practical value. So is my assessment from the excerpts of her book that I read. But she tries to convince her readers of the enormous complexity of the problem.

Permit me to explain my view of why complexity reduction makes more sense than the opposite: When Mother Nature designed the human species (i.e. through evolution), her primary goal was procreation as much and as efficiently as possible. And that would have never worked with too much complexity. So evolution tends to result in “minimalistic” solutions, most of the time. And it worked indeed.

But then a fellow appeared on the scene, in Vienna, a doctor Sigmund Freud, and he began throwing monkey wrenches into the works, by inventing psychoanalysis. None of Dr. Freud’s supposed discoveries were meant to help patients, far from it, but they sure helped the profession of “shrinks” and therapists to take in lots and lots of money in fees. Because patients have to forever come back for more therapy.

B.F. Skinner, on the other hand, the founder of behavioral psychology, did not receive nearly as much fame as Sigmund Freud, because “all he did” was focus on solutions. And of course complexity reduction became necessary. As it always does, when workable solutions are required.

THAT I see as the principal difference between your and my approach. And I wonder now: can you agree with me?