Demonizing sex workers

[EmilyMiller]

Keyword here is capable - we just have to try to remember that a troubling number of us will fall short of that capability.

Yes, you are right. I fall short myself. But I do try.

Em

 

[alohadave]

I've never ventured into this LW people keep speaking of, but it seems like a dark place. I don't often go far from exhibitionist & voyeur (EV?).

Many of the stories are fine. It's the commenters that make it toxic. When I read LW stories, I just avoid the comments. They are nearly as bad as YouTube comments.

 

[KachinaDoll]

Going off slightly on a tangent - my grandfather once told me about an offence under the Army Act (British). It was called 'Section 69'. He said it was a catch-all when a more appropriate offence couldn't be found. I've just googled it and it says "conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline". That's how I view the LW category. It's a dumping ground. I don't read stories in it and won't be submitting any to it.

 

[HordHolm]

This is indeed progress .

Em

Growth!

 

[EmilyMiller]

Well, I guess it's time for some self-promotion because I just published one such story. I've tried to write some stories about prostitution from the point of view of the women who do it. I don't know what makes me qualified to do that hey, fiction is making things up, right? I think I was trying to show them in a sympathetic light, but their ambivalence about it shows through anyway. Nora shows up in several stories.

https://classic.literotica.com/s/freshman-hooker

She reveals more details here:

https://classic.literotica.com/s/college-hooking-memories-ch-01

As a senior, she is recruited to be a dominatrix. This starts in third person and moves to first person. Not recommended as a technique, but I "kitbashed" two stories into one.

https://classic.literotica.com/s/nora-works-as-a-dominatrix

Well if we are promoting stories (do people do that here ?) then:

The Pornstar Experience has an obvious theme (it is an actual pornstar escorting, as many do).

And a demonic / angelic escort agency (which feels like something Joss Whedo man would have written) is featured in Off the Shoulder and House Call.

Em

 

[B2fromA2looking4U]

While not exactly the same. I’ve written about a bereaved man joining a gang bang (no money involved. I’d appreciate your thoughts.

Fragile

Em

I will read it and provide my thoughts. Also, another source of perspective is the widows and widowers thread:
https://forum.literotica.com/threads/widows-and-widowers-2.1578411/

 

[EmilyMiller]

I will read it and provide my thoughts. Also, another source of perspective is the widows and widowers thread:
https://forum.literotica.com/threads/widows-and-widowers-2.1578411/

I knew / know a few widowers, who have influenced some of my stories.

Em

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I am assuming that most of your male readers will see themselves in the role of that husband and will feel outraged because he accepted such a marriage. Because they themselves would never accept such a thing, they vote down the story. It is as simple as that, I am afraid. I believe that it is exactly this "putting themselves in that role" thing that prevents them from judging the story on its literary merit rather than on its content. Maybe a more tolerant category was a better choice in this case (Fetish?)

 

[Bazzle]

My fiftieth story is about a sex worker. A sex worker who is married (apparently happily) and has a young child.

Now I posted it in LW. I wasn’t expecting a rating of 5 ️ and universal acclaim (as ever, the majority of people were kind, even the anon ones).

But this isn’t a whinge about this. It about comments like “no man would let his wife do that” and “no man would marry a whore” and “what do they tell the child about her disgusting work?”

There was (as maybe is to be suspected) condemnation of the woman and (as it’s LW) her husband. But none for the clients.

Is this odd on a sex site? Or are sex workers not human beings too?

Em

PS This isn’t really about my story (hence no link) it’s about attitudes to prostitution on Literotica

Hey Emily,
I've been mining the smoking fetish models on Reddit for stories. What is interesting is that several of them see themselves as prostitutes but without the actual contact.

With using only/Loyal Fans they are selling their bodies.

When I post their stories they do equally badly on Lit!

B

 

[TheRedChamber]

Bottom line, this happens even outside of LW. Even in Romance A Half-Decent Performance - "Never marry a stripper." I also had a memorable rant about His Sister in his Lap, though it seems to have gone now - basically incest good, lap-dancing sisters bad.

She reveals more details here:

https://classic.literotica.com/s/college-hooking-memories-ch-01

I saw this earlier today, didn't have time to read it, but my brain just did not process the title - 'Surely Gunhill means College Hooking Up Memories, boy is his face going to be red when he realizes he screwed up in the title' - nope, the other type of hooking.

 

[AchtungNight]

My fiftieth story is about a sex worker. A sex worker who is married (apparently happily) and has a young child.

Now I posted it in LW. I wasn’t expecting a rating of 5 ️ and universal acclaim (as ever, the majority of people were kind, even the anon ones).

But this isn’t a whinge about this. It about comments like “no man would let his wife do that” and “no man would marry a whore” and “what do they tell the child about her disgusting work?”

There was (as maybe is to be suspected) condemnation of the woman and (as it’s LW) her husband. But none for the clients.

Is this odd on a sex site? Or are sex workers not human beings too?

Em

PS This isn’t really about my story (hence no link) it’s about attitudes to prostitution on Literotica

A lot of people have shame and fear related to prostitution. I myself lost my virginity to a prostitute at a brothel in Taiwan. Afterwards some of the guys who had gone with me refused to discuss the matter outside our circle, changed their stories regarding it constantly, and denied going there when confronted. Female friends with whom I discussed the visit were for the most part similarly appalled. I remember one girl with whom I had broken off a previous relationship lashing out at me and my “little whore”, slut-shaming us both. I told her I would have gladly lost my virginity to her if she’d let me, and that made things even worse. We’ve since come to an understanding, but I digress. Later I got with more open minded women who did not require money. Getting with a sex worker first smoothed the process on my end.

I do not like that sex is such a social stigma. It’s pleasing, what’s the problem? Fear, mistrust, confusion, anger- that can so easily lead to the dark side of emotions. There are some harsh possibilities, of course. Disease, unwanted pregnancy, the recurring nightmare some men have of being accused of rape after scoring with a malignant narcissist personality… some women have that too, of course. I’m thinking about it because I recently wrote an Erotic Horror story based on an especially scary version of the idea. And let’s not forget actual sexual harassment and assault. False or real accusations of cheating and similar crimes also.

In my opinion, as long as everything is consensual and enjoyable for all parties involved, sex should not be demonized like this. People get urges, have fantasies and desires, men and women both. We should be allowed to enjoy them. But no, we have to have selfish pride and other issues with that. We have to hurt ourselves and others going after something amazing that should be celebrated when enjoyed in the right way. We have to get paranoid. We have to demonize sex and divide ourselves based on what sorts we enjoy.

I don’t want to discuss it further. I just know I don’t like it. I don’t want to become the sort of person who furthers the demonization either. I appreciate Lit for helping me air this stance.

 

[alohadave]

Going off slightly on a tangent - my grandfather once told me about an offence under the Army Act (British). It was called 'Section 69'. He said it was a catch-all when a more appropriate offence couldn't be found. I've just googled it and it says "conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline". That's how I view the LW category. It's a dumping ground. I don't read stories in it and won't be submitting any to it.

The US military has a similar clause in the UCML, Article 134.

 

[Lifestyle66]

... I myself lost my virginity to a prostitute at a brothel in Taiwan. Afterwards some of the guys who had gone with me refused to discuss the matter outside our circle, changed their stories regarding it constantly, and denied going there when confronted. Female friends with whom I discussed the visit were for the most part similarly appalled. I remember one girl with whom I had broken off a previous relationship lashing out at me and my “little whore”, slut-shaming us both. I told her I would have gladly lost my virginity to her if she’d let me, and that made things even worse. ...

That's what I was saying in my earlier posts: It's about the power dynamics (which most people want to ignore, to continue with their belief it's about misogynists.)

Your friends are embarrassed to talk about paying hookers for sex, because they had to PAY for sex. And your former girlfriend was appalled that she lost that control over you to another woman who put a price on sex.

 

[SimonDoom]

A lot of people have shame and fear related to prostitution. I myself lost my virginity to a prostitute at a brothel in Taiwan. Afterwards some of the guys who had gone with me refused to discuss the matter outside our circle, changed their stories regarding it constantly, and denied going there when confronted. Female friends with whom I discussed the visit were for the most part similarly appalled. I remember one girl with whom I had broken off a previous relationship lashing out at me and my “little whore”, slut-shaming us both. I told her I would have gladly lost my virginity to her if she’d let me, and that made things even worse. We’ve since come to an understanding, but I digress. Later I got with more open minded women who did not require money. Getting with a sex worker first smoothed the process on my end.

I do not like that sex is such a social stigma. It’s pleasing, what’s the problem? Fear, mistrust, confusion, anger- that can so easily lead to the dark side of emotions. There are some harsh possibilities, of course. Disease, unwanted pregnancy, the recurring nightmare some men have of being accused of rape after scoring with a malignant narcissist personality… some women have that too, of course. I’m thinking about it because I recently wrote an Erotic Horror story based on an especially scary version of the idea. And let’s not forget actual sexual harassment and assault. False or real accusations of cheating and similar crimes also.

In my opinion, as long as everything is consensual and enjoyable for all parties involved, sex should not be demonized like this. People get urges, have fantasies and desires, men and women both. We should be allowed to enjoy them. But no, we have to have selfish pride and other issues with that. We have to hurt ourselves and others going after something amazing that should be celebrated when enjoyed in the right way. We have to get paranoid. We have to demonize sex and divide ourselves based on what sorts we enjoy.

I don’t want to discuss it further. I just know I don’t like it. I don’t want to become the sort of person who furthers the demonization either. I appreciate Lit for helping me air this stance.

I think it's easy for us, inside this odd kinky space, to forget that much of the outside world thinks what WE do here is perverted and wrong. In the USA, sex is still a very weird subject for people to talk about rationally. Somewhat surprisingly (to me), there still doesn't seem to be any appreciable political pressure to ease up legal restrictions on prostitution. It's still generally illegal and it looks like it will continue to be. I've always been in favor of decriminalization, but I don't know many people who advocate that position.

 

[alohadave]

And your former girlfriend was appalled that she lost that control over you to another woman who put a price on sex.

When you put a price on it, then it can be commoditized. By comparing her to a prostitute, the value of sex with her is reduced to a dollar (or whatever currency) amount.

 

[AchtungNight]

That's what I was saying in my earlier posts: It's about the power dynamics (which most people want to ignore, to continue with their belief it's about misogynists.)

Your friends are embarrassed to talk about paying hookers for sex, because they had to PAY for sex. And your former girlfriend was appalled that she lost that control over you to another woman who put a price on sex.

We ended the relationship before I visited the brothel. She should have not had a problem with my decision. She did tell me to see other people. But yeah, I guess it still hurt her pride when I took her advice.

 

[Lifestyle66]

When you put a price on it, then it can be commoditized. By comparing her to a prostitute, the value of sex with her is reduced to a dollar (or whatever currency) amount.

We ended the relationship before I visited the brothel. She should have not had a problem with my decision. She did tell me to see other people. But yeah, I guess it still hurt her pride when I took her advice.

Alohadave said it best with his observation that what you did showed your former girlfriend what her commodity was worth. Her P was no longer "priceless".

 

[MrPixel]

... I've always been in favor of decriminalization, but I don't know many people who advocate that position.

As much as I considered the late Larry Flynt to be disgusting, he wasn't afraid to advocate a sex-positive agenda. It takes wealth, though.

It's the bluenoses. They trot out the ever-reliable "we need to protect the children" whenever their Puritanical worldview is threatened. And how can you possibly advocate something that is going to be bad for children. You are therefore a bad person, and if you advocate "a lesser position" in public, you get to wander the streets with a big red 'A' on your chest.

Many decades ago I was visibly active in a cause that was counter to the prevailing authority, and had my words twisted in TV interviews. My side eventually "won", but getting there wasn't pleasant.

 

[Lifestyle66]

... Somewhat surprisingly (to me), there still doesn't seem to be any appreciable political pressure to ease up legal restrictions on prostitution. It's still generally illegal and it looks like it will continue to be. ...

Prostitution won't be legalized by either side of the political spectrum, because it's like drugs.

The fear is that MY kids/grandkids/daughter/wife/etc will become addicted to/engaged in legalized ____. (fill in the blank)

 

[NoTalentHack]

Going off slightly on a tangent - my grandfather once told me about an offence under the Army Act (British). It was called 'Section 69'. He said it was a catch-all when a more appropriate offence couldn't be found. I've just googled it and it says "conduct to the prejudice of good order and military discipline". That's how I view the LW category. It's a dumping ground. I don't read stories in it and won't be submitting any to it.

I'll be honest with you: you're missing out on some great stories, then. Cagivagurl tells wonderful stories about people navigating a spouse's infidelity and (usually) reconciling. dtiverson tells rollicking, clever adventure tales with great twists. Bruce1971 has some incredibly smart stuff to say, both in his stories and his essays. ohio, qhml1, javmor70, RichardGerald, GeorgeAnderson, Mainefiddleheads, GirlintheMoon, ThatNewGuy and more write stories that are interesting, unpredictable, dramatic, and fun. And, yes, sometimes a story ends in divorce (acrimonious or otherwise) and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the story starts after a death or divorce and is told in flashbacks. Sometimes... you get the idea.

It's not all BTB. It's not even close to all BTB. Avoid the comments section, sure. But saying "I don't read LW because of they're all BTBs" is like saying "I don't read mysteries because they're all police procedurals." It's not even close to true.

 

[AchtungNight]

As much as I considered the late Larry Flynt to be disgusting, he wasn't afraid to advocate a sex-positive agenda. It takes wealth, though.

It's the bluenoses. They trot out the ever-reliable "we need to protect the children" whenever their Puritanical worldview is threatened. And how can you possibly advocate something that is going to be bad for children. You are therefore a bad person, and if you advocate "a lesser position" in public, you get to wander the streets with a big red 'A' on your chest.

Many decades ago I was visibly active in a cause that was counter to the prevailing authority, and had my words twisted in TV interviews. My side eventually "won", but getting there wasn't pleasant.

Funny, Larry Flynt is one of my heroes. Not as an exploitative person, as a sex-positive one.

Also, the former girlfriend I mentioned continues to take a “protect the children” stance with people today regarding the subject of sex. But we have an understanding because I know not to discuss sex around her kids. Others have done it and we’ve both cautioned them. Meanwhile we can discuss it in private when no kids are around.

 

[NoTalentHack]

My fiftieth story is about a sex worker. A sex worker who is married (apparently happily) and has a young child.

Now I posted it in LW. I wasn’t expecting a rating of 5 ️ and universal acclaim (as ever, the majority of people were kind, even the anon ones).

But this isn’t a whinge about this. It about comments like “no man would let his wife do that” and “no man would marry a whore” and “what do they tell the child about her disgusting work?”

There was (as maybe is to be suspected) condemnation of the woman and (as it’s LW) her husband. But none for the clients.

Is this odd on a sex site? Or are sex workers not human beings too?

Em

PS This isn’t really about my story (hence no link) it’s about attitudes to prostitution on Literotica

I really enjoyed the story, but I'm not at all surprised at the response to it, especially to the husband at the end. And I say I'm not surprised, but it's not that I'm not surprised in LW: I wouldn't have been surprised at that response anywhere on Lit. Sex workers are still maligned, and Lit is as sexist as any other place on the web. We may tell ourselves otherwise, but it's just that the manifestation of the sexism is different. It's still Madonna/Whore complex all the way down. You can't have a sex worker in most stories unless it's a one-off in a stroker, a hooker with a heart of gold (that MUST be "redeemed" if she's the FMC), or who continues to hook because that's the husband's fetish. Outside of that? People get real, real mad most places on Lit.

 

[SimonDoom]

I really enjoyed the story, but I'm not at all surprised at the response to it, especially to the husband at the end. And I say I'm not surprised, but it's not that I'm not surprised in LW: I wouldn't have been surprised at that response anywhere on Lit. Sex workers are still maligned, and Lit is as sexist as any other place on the web. We may tell ourselves otherwise, but it's just that the manifestation of the sexism is different. It's still Madonna/Whore complex all the way down. You can't have a sex worker in most stories unless it's a one-off in a stroker, a hooker with a heart of gold (that MUST be "redeemed" if she's the FMC), or who continues to hook because that's the husband's fetish. Outside of that? People get real, real mad most places on Lit.

I don't quite see the same thing. For one thing, as I noted before, if you read the comments to Emily's story the criticisms are more concerned with the husband-wife relationship than with sex workers generally. Second, I haven't seen negative commentary about sex workers in general at this site, and I see far LESS criticism of women and their sexuality in other categories than in LW. I've written hot wife stories in E&V and they do fine. A few stray negative comments, but not enough to knock the score way down or hurt the story's performance. In general, I think Lit is far more accepting of women exploring their sexual horizons than society at large.

 

[gunhilltrain]

We're much kinder than we used to be. The idea of being kind to people who are different as a general principle is fairly new. So, I do not believe you are naive on that point.

"Human beings are capable of anything." I know I've quoted that before. We can be kind and we can be brutal, depending on the context. It helps that in the West we have been prosperous. But as someone else said, "There are only nine [missed] meals between mankind and anarchy." There doesn't even have to be missed meals for awful things to happen.

American jails and prisons are actually better than those in many other countries.

 

[Bamagan]

My fiftieth story is about a sex worker. A sex worker who is married (apparently happily) and has a young child.

Now I posted it in LW. I wasn’t expecting a rating of 5 ️ and universal acclaim (as ever, the majority of people were kind, even the anon ones).

But this isn’t a whinge about this. It about comments like “no man would let his wife do that” and “no man would marry a whore” and “what do they tell the child about her disgusting work?”

There was (as maybe is to be suspected) condemnation of the woman and (as it’s LW) her husband. But none for the clients.

Is this odd on a sex site? Or are sex workers not human beings too?

Em

PS This isn’t really about my story (hence no link) it’s about attitudes to prostitution on Literotica

Regarding the clients issue: I think it is not uncommon for people to generally assign more blame on the purveyor or provider of something deemed undesirable than on the ones consuming it. People get some funny ideas about supply and demand when it comes to such topics. There's a certain amount of logic to concentrating your ire and efforts on the suppliers, though, since there's usually far fewer of them than their customers, and there's often a naïve hope that when the supply is cut off the demand will simply evaporate.
Also, readers here, like people in general, may well be drawing a squiggly line between different types of 'sex work' in order to make sure the stuff they like falls on the 'acceptable' side of the line. To be fair, there's a substantial difference between a person writing erotica and one modeling, and between the model and the porn star, and between the porn star and the prostitute. But outside of a handful of people, I don't think the readers' condemnation is necessarily an assault on the humanity of the people they disapprove of. Instead, it may be more of a kind of class-based assessment that believes certain people are 'untouchable' because of their work. If you'll pardon the pun, I think it's just a re-skin of the attitudes people used to have against miscegenation (and it's not like that belief is actually gone, of course).