“I can write authentic female characters” he said. Hilarity ensues.

[Jada59]

Don't ask how ugly they can be. Think horrible elastic, faded, etc.

Nothing like the brand grundies whose webpage is, uh, far from displeasing!

Faded is not a problem but if they have horrible elastic, they *will* get stained. Wear well fitting ones that shore right up to your crotch and there will be little to no staining. Assuming you are good at changing your protection.

 

[NotWise]

I never really wondered what it was like to have a cock. Where to put it in my pants/underwear? How it feels when it's hard? Things about balls. How it feels to ask a woman out on a date?

Why? Why do I not have questions about these things? It's not that I don't care. I think it's because with most men, what you see is what you get. They're just not usually very secretive.

You probably aren't alone, nor is that a universal lack of curiosity. I had a fairly long-term girlfriend who was fascinated by such things. She used to ask to hold my cock when I peed. She wasn't doing it out of naiveté. She had three kids. She just thought it was fascinating.

I worked very closely with another woman for several years and we became good friends. I'm not entirely sure how the conversation came up, but I admitted to being fascinated by women's bodies. She waved that off, said that she found men's bodies way more interesting than women's, and went on to describe just exactly what she found fascinating. I'm not sure cock was on her list. She was more into muscles, hands, whiskers, and such.

 

[Requiax]

Is it really possible to apply all of the criticisms in this article and accompanying hashtag to erotica, though?

Writing women as terrible automatons of cliches and breasts is bad writing whether you are engaged in producing erotica or anything else, but that aside, many of the complaints (over-reliance on physical description, sexualised depictions and so on) probably wouldn't be as jarringly out-of-place in erotica (bearing in mind, the original cringe-inducing descriptions that prompted the article and hashtag came from a Young Adult novel).

That's not to say erotica gets a pass on writing women badly when the author is a man... but maybe erotica shouldn't always be evaluated by the same standards as non-erotic literature. After all, they don't have "Best Porn" at the Oscars...

 

[SimonDoom]

Is it really possible to apply all of the criticisms in this article and accompanying hashtag to erotica, though?

Writing women as terrible automatons of cliches and breasts is bad writing whether you are engaged in producing erotica or anything else, but that aside, many of the complaints (over-reliance on physical description, sexualised depictions and so on) probably wouldn't be as jarringly out-of-place in erotica (bearing in mind, the original cringe-inducing descriptions that prompted the article and hashtag came from a Young Adult novel).

That's not to say erotica gets a pass on writing women badly when the author is a man... but maybe erotica shouldn't always be evaluated by the same standards as non-erotic literature. After all, they don't have "Best Porn" at the Oscars...

I agree. It's important to keep in mind that there are certain things that make it "erotica" as opposed to some other sort of fiction, and among those things is the intent to arouse the reader. Arousal may involve fantasy, rather than realism. It's not necessarily a bad thing to populate an erotic story with characters that are projections of fantasy. Men (and more than a few women) enjoy reading stories about hot women whose thoughts and actions to some extent are a projection of their fantasies. There's nothing wrong with that. It can be done well or it can be done badly, like anything else.

 

[Charmolypi]

She waved that off, said that she found men's bodies way more interesting than women's, and went on to describe just exactly what she found fascinating. I'm not sure cock was on her list. She was more into muscles, hands, whiskers, and such.

Oh whiskers. I am fascinated by these. What is it like to have such coarse hair coming right out of your face? And every morning, there’s more. A serious amount more. I think it would disturb me.

And the male scent. It’s a drug. How do you not go around smelling yourselves all day? I am pressed into my husband’s neck and chest to soak up that scent.

 

[NotWise]

Is it really possible to apply all of the criticisms in this article and accompanying hashtag to erotica, though?

It's possible. I think question is whether you want to do it. The complaints in the original article seem to address the initial description of a female character, and then the female characters reactions and motivations.

There isn't much need to sexualize a woman's initial description. You can if you want to. I generally don't want to. In my VDay story, Her Bodyguard the story starts with a description of the main female character's life situation. She appears last among all the main characters, and it goes like this:

Camile met them at the door with a box and a lamp. She shoved the lamp at Colin and asked, "Can you handle that?" then swept her dark hair back behind her ear and waved her hand at the room behind her. "These and a couple things I'll just stick in my car are all that's left. Then I'll lock up." There wasn't a hint of happiness in her words or her inflection. The bruise on her cheek was still too dark to cover with makeup and the broken rib made her wince when she lifted her arm, or even laughed.

The story was well-accepted.

As to reactions and motivations, a lot of erotica seems to depend on the female characters behaving in ways that most women don't -- or don't very often, at least. Probably those departures are part of the thrill for male readers and maybe for some female readers, too.

Can you write erotica without them? Yes. Erotic Romances often are written without them. Do you want to? That's up to you.

 

[NotWise]

And the male scent. It’s a drug. How do you not go around smelling yourselves all day? I am pressed into my husband’s neck and chest to soak up that scent.

I didn't run across this idea until my daughters were grown. One of them had a boyfriend who was good-looking but neglectful. My wife tried to encourage her into dropping the guy, and she responded, "Yeah, but that's hard. I like the way he smells."

My wife made her bring the boyfriend over so she could smell him. Not laughing when it happened took a lot out of me.

 

[SimonDoom]

, a lot of erotica seems to depend on the female characters behaving in ways that most women don't -- or don't very often, at least. Probably those departures are part of the thrill for male readers and maybe for some female readers, too.

This, to me, is a big part of what erotica "is": people pushing their sexual boundaries, especially in ways that are disapproved of by society at large. Since women, in most if not all cultures, are subject to more restrictions and more shaming than men are, they are a more interesting subject to explore this theme than men are, although there's plenty of room in erotic fiction to explore men pushing and stretching their sexual boundaries as well.

Judging from comments I've received, while the male audience for this sort of thing is bigger, there is a sizeable female audience for female characters of this sort, too.

 

[ausfet]

Assuming you are good at changing your protection.

That's my problem. Mobile, male dominated work, often using male bathrooms or, worse, peeing behind something. The joys.

 

[Charmolypi]

I didn't run across this idea until my daughters were grown. One of them had a boyfriend who was good-looking but neglectful. My wife tried to encourage her into dropping the guy, and she responded, "Yeah, but that's hard. I like the way he smells."

My wife made her bring the boyfriend over so she could smell him. Not laughing when it happened took a lot out of me.

Admit it. You wanted to smell him too.

 

[NotWise]

Admit it. You wanted to smell him too.

Nah. I just wanted him out of my daughter's life, but I had to be nice.

He was her occasional manager at work (bad juju), and not nearly as smart as she is. She was rebounding, and he was really good looking. She's always had a thing for well-muscled men. His biceps were bigger around than her thighs. They measured, and she reported the stats.

She got rid of him, and I'm not sure he noticed. He was useful when she needed to sell her ancient Accord. He bought it.

She's married since. Her husband holds a state record in the dead lift for his age/weight/organization. He's also a HUGE upgrade on the scales for talent, intelligence, creativity, sensitivity, goal orientation, and income.

Don't know about smell. I assume he smells good to her.

 

[Jada59]

Oh whiskers. I am fascinated by these. What is it like to have such coarse hair coming right out of your face? And every morning, there’s more. A serious amount more. I think it would disturb me.

And the male scent. It’s a drug. How do you not go around smelling yourselves all day? I am pressed into my husband’s neck and chest to soak up that scent.

Oh yes. The scent! OTOH, I have read that men prefer our natural scent to perfume. Too bad because I love perfume! Also a certain men's cologne drives me wild but there is nothing like most men's natural scent.

Weird thing is, at some point, I began to extremely dislike the scent of my ex. I suppose this was during the time frame when things started to sour between us. It wasn't just me who noticed it though. Others would notice the scent of him in the room where he normally sat. I was constantly cleaning, spraying, doing whatever I could do, but the scent didn't go away.

 

[Jada59]

That's my problem. Mobile, male dominated work, often using male bathrooms or, worse, peeing behind something. The joys.

Peeing behind something?

I used to work at golf course. I was known to have quickly changed protection in my bosses office after he went home. Wasn't a big deal because I had to take out the trash at the end of the day. And we always had some sort of cleaner and tissues or paper towels so I could clean my hands.

 

[yukonnights]

Must be a real problem...it's even in the mainline news today

Link to The Guardian ->All Cleavage and Clunkiness...why can't male authors write women?

 

[Handley_Page]

Oh yes. The scent! OTOH, I have read that men prefer our natural scent to perfume. Too bad because I love perfume!
.
.

Very True; but the perfume you choose should match, or enhance, your own natural secretions. Choose the wrong one and the result is ghastly.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Must be a real problem...it's even in the mainline news today

I've been complimented by women, including gay women, as to how well I write my women. By the same token, I've been complimented by gay men as to how well I write my men. Straight men don't care how I write my men .

 

[SimonDoom]

Straight men don't care how I write my men .

LOL. I think that's right. Dick with legs, seeking pussy. Most guys will be just fine with that. Throw in a moment's reluctance over getting it on with mom/sister/teacher/neighbor/co-worker/whoever and you've got a "complex" male character.

 

[Kojak01]

Throw in a moment's reluctance over getting it on with mom/sister/teacher/neighbor/co-worker/whoever and you've got a "complex" male character.

That's so true it hurts

 

[NovusAnimus]

Male writer.

I've never really considered gender an issue when writing my characters. I write fantasy, and the day-to-day lives of the cast are so outside the norm, that I find I avoid a lot of the gender stereotypes.

But that's conscious. Subconsciously, I bet there's a million things I'm doing that accidentally undermines or dismisses elements of being a woman that I'm not getting across in my writing. Things that would lend to legitimacy and narrative weight.

Since reading this thread, I've started looking up make-up guides, because while I know women are under a constant social pressure to look their 'best,' I've never really gotten that across in my writing implicitly. Research research research.

 

[NotWise]

Since reading this thread, I've started looking up make-up guides, because while I know women are under a constant social pressure to look their 'best,' I've never really gotten that across in my writing implicitly. Research research research.

Makeup guides? Is describing makeup going to improve your characters?

 

[Princess_Red]

Most of my work is female characters, however, I have highlighted certain attributes knowing that they will be read by men.I wrote my first male POV and I think it went well, feel free to have a read. I had a woman comment that she liked my break down of male stereotypes, my male characters are strong but emotionally available and because my universe is tilted as a matriarchy the men are persecuted so the vulnerability and openness is more understandable I think. It's a perspective I love discussing but don't get many opportunities to do so.

 

[NotWise]

It's a perspective I love discussing but don't get many opportunities to do so.

I'm not sure what perspective you're talking about.

I read a bit of your most recent story and skimmed some more. I suppose the male POV came off okay, but I thought your first person character was awfully verbose for a guy.

There aren't many matriarchal societies to use as a model, but can you think of any where men are persecuted? My most recent story derives some details from an actual matriarchal society, the Keresan Pueblo people of central New Mexico.

In their society, women are the head of their families (the basic definition of matriarchal) and their clans, and a man's social standing depends on the standing of the women in his family. Also, women own the houses and, in some villages, the fields as well. But that doesn't tell the whole story. Membership in kiva societies are passed down through the father, and the kiva societies are powerful social organizations.

Marriage may not have existed in the pre-Columbian era. It was forced on them by the Franciscans after Spanish conquest. Even now it is the woman who selects her partner, and the parents who make arrangements. Separations happen, but divorces are rare, partly because their Christian tradition is Roman Catholic.

I don't see anything in this society or in their folklore to suggest that men are persecuted.

 

[Princess_Red]

I was referring the discussion of the story structure, narratives and perspectives etc.

Verbose, as in communicative? Intelligent? What words do you feel are unnecessary. Maybe they seem unnecessary to you due to the male-centric society we have? All this hetro-normative testosterone laden macho behavior means maybe in their 9my characters) female-focused environment that they would express themselves more freely? That's the perspective I took anyway
I wouldn't care to comment on actual societies, in mine, I just flipped some of the societal norms of our past. It's fiction after all.
Thank for taking the time to browse my stuff. Much appreciated.

I'm not sure what perspective you're talking about.

I read a bit of your most recent story and skimmed some more. I suppose the male POV came off okay, but I thought your first person character was awfully verbose for a guy.

 

[NotWise]

Verbose, as in communicative? Intelligent? What words do you feel are unnecessary.

No, as in chatty. I wouldn't have said anything had it been a few words. I'd have removed paragraphs at a time, sometimes in favor of a well-chosen sentence.

Maybe they seem unnecessary to you due to the male-centric society we have? All this hetro-normative testosterone laden macho behavior means maybe in their 9my characters) female-focused environment that they would express themselves more freely? That's the perspective I took anyway

You're certainly free to imagine the society you create in any way you want. But if you are concerned about whether your male character is believable then I think there's a different standard.

I wouldn't care to comment on actual societies, in mine, I just flipped some of the societal norms of our past. It's fiction after all.

Perhaps it's the flipping of social norms that caused my problem. There is some value in referring to actual matriarchal societies, because even when many social norms are flipped, there are many roles that remain the same. Among the Keresan people, for instance, men are still the warriors and the hunters, and the men are distinctly masculine in a hetero-normative sort of way.

 

[yukonnights]

I've been complimented by women, including gay women, as to how well I write my women. By the same token, I've been complimented by gay men as to how well I write my men. Straight men don't care how I write my men .

I always have a woman read my stuff before calling it done. I can get a decent part of it right, but there's usually some little thing that isn't quite there. Men like to write about "Panties"...seems most women think they are "Underwear" Apparently a strap-on isn't a real important thing for most Lesbians... too 'dicky', my bi/lesbian friend said...who would have thought? Little things like that just fly over my head like a mist without a thought.

I'm trying to recall if I ever even tried to write a straight man....thinking... I think only as side props. But it would be easy to do. Maybe a western romance would be fun to try.