2 hostages rescued so far

[KeithD]

Yes, it was great that any hostages were saved. The cost in Palestinians to cover pulling them out was god awful, though. Isreal bombed the shit out of Raffah immediately after the hostages were extracted. The Gaza Palestinians have constantly been told to move out of the way with nowhere to do that. They aren't all innocent of why Israel is operating in Gaza, but they aren't all guilty of doing anything but trying to live in a cage they've been kept in for decades.

It's nice, though, that now Israel has directly saved more of the hostages (4) than that Israeli soldiers in Gaza themselves killed when they were trying to let them know they were hostages (3).

 

[Lazaran]

But a reporting source really needs to be provided. I mostly use the Political board to check on unfolding news. It's disconcerting when no context is provided.

On this particular action, according to reports run on CNN through the day, two hostages were rescued and, to cover their extraction, at last count 94 Palestinians were killed in the covering barrage. I'm not going to be quick to say that is a desirable tradeoff.

If only there was some way ALL of this could have been avoided…





And, as was stated in the other Israel war thread, there is little to differentiate between the Hamas animals, the Palestinian "civilian" enablers / cohorts and the UN "humanitarian" aid workers:

Released hostages reporting they were held in the custody / homes of "civilians", the discovery of the Hamas animal’s bases underneath hospitals, schools, and UN headquarters, and "MINORS" recruited / indoctrinated and fighting alongside the Hamas animals at the urging / with the blessing, of their parents, all suggests that there is no other way to prosecute the war than to “kill ‘em all and let god sort them out”…

Yeah, if only there was some way ALL of this could have been avoided.

 

[KeithD]

The body counts of close to 100 came from Hamas almost immediately, mostly children. I suspect it was mainly military age men. The only numbers I trust are how many soldiers were lost in the rescue at this point.

The Gazian body count I got (100 in the first report; 94 in the next one) was from the CNN reporter on the ground.

And, um, no. It was in a residential area of a city built for 300,000 that now is housing more than a million and a half, because they have been herded there. This was carpet bombing of the area. This isn't 100 soldiers dead. If it had been 100 Hamas soldiers, no Israeli extraction force would be able to go in and come out with two living hostages.

I worked the region off and on since 1980, including working with both Palestinians and Israelis--and a scary extraction operation of my own of employee's families from a Palestinian camp when we knew the Israelis were going to bomb the shit out of the camp in the next few days--and did (see Shabbu's "Velvet Interrogation," which was based in fact as far as background events--the Shatila camp massacre in 1982. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre). The Palestinians I met who hadn't escaped the Israel/Gaza/West Bank go through life feeling like the Israelis treat them like barnyard animals and my work with Israelis was that they think of Palestinians as no better than barnyard animals.

 

[Lazaran]

Um, no. It was in a residential area of a city built for 300,000 that now is housing more than a million and a half, because they have been herded there. This was carpet bombing of the area. This isn't 100 soldiers dead. If it had been 100 Hamas soldiers, no Israeli extraction force would be able to go in and come out with two living hostages.

I worked the region off and on since 1980, including working with both Palestinians and Israelis--and a scary extraction operation of my own of employee's families from a Palestinian camp when we knew the Israelis were going to bomb the shit out of the camp in the next few days--and did (see Shabbu's "Velvet Interrogation," which was based in fact as far as background events). The Palestinians I met who hadn't escaped the Israel/Gaza/West Bank go through life feeling like the Israelis treat them like barnyard animals and my work with Israelis was that they think of Palestinians as no better than barnyard animals.

And how do those Palestinians / Arabs / Muslims treat Israeli Jews??? And what do they think of them???



I suppose October 7th and ALL the previous wars, terror attacks, and gray-zone warfare tactics perpetrated by Palestinians / Arabs / Muslims answers my question.

 

[KeithD]

And how do those Palestinians / Arabs / Muslims treat Israeli Jews??? And what do they think of them???



I suppose October 7th and ALL the previous wars, terror attacks, and gray-zone warfare tactics perpetrated by Palestinians / Arabs / Muslims answers my question.

They certainly don't think of Israelis as expendable barnyard animals. They think of them as invaders and oppressors, as the Palestinians were there when, contrary to international efforts at the time, the Zionists dropped down on their heads after WWII.

Since the only way to make a living wage from Gaza was to have permission to work in Israel, a good many Palestinians just were keeping their heads down and mouths shut. (While, yes, many of those were supporting the Hamas as one of the only options given to them to have a future since the current Israeli PM wouldn't even discuss anyone else handling government in Gaza and, in the meantime, is encouraging Israeli settlers to displace Palestinians territorially). Most of the other Palestinians living in Gaza only were able to survive because Palestinian family members living elsewhere sent money home. Palestinians in the region aren't really in the position to interact with Isrealis at all unless they've managed to get a job to work for them--in Israel.

Yes, the Hamas 7 October attack was horrific. It also was stupid, as the response was predictable. It didn't happen without the current Trumpish Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu closing down on all other options, however. It didn't just drop out of the blue as an idea to try out that day.

I'm guessing you never were in Israel working anything like this issue.

 

[Noor]

Yes, it was great that any hostages were saved. The cost in Palestinians to cover pulling them out was god awful, though. Isreal bombed the shit out of Raffah immediately after the hostages were extracted. The Gaza Palestinians have constantly been told to move out of the way with nowhere to do that. They aren't all innocent of why Israel is operating in Gaza, but they aren't all guilty of doing anything but trying to live in a cage they've been kept in for decades.

It's nice, though, that now Israel has directly saved more of the hostages (4) than that Israeli soldiers in Gaza themselves killed when they were trying to let them know they were hostages (3).

No they bombed before they pulled them out as a diversion and it was a precise, relatively small area. Once the population has moved out, they will bomb more or at least deal with the tunnels.
Killing those 3 hostages was definitely a horrible mistake.

Unfortunately when a government which the citizens voted into power starts a war by raiding and massacring, they had to deal with the war.
Just like we have to deal with our leaders actions.

Um, no. It was in a residential area of a city built for 300,000 that now is housing more than a million and a half, because they have been herded there. This was carpet bombing of the area. This isn't 100 soldiers dead. If it had been 100 Hamas soldiers, no Israeli extraction force would be able to go in and come out with two living hostages.

I worked the region off and on since 1980, including working with both Palestinians and Israelis--and a scary extraction operation of my own of employee's families from a Palestinian camp when we knew the Israelis were going to bomb the shit out of the camp in the next few days--and did (see Shabbu's "Velvet Interrogation," which was based in fact as far as background events). The Palestinians I met who hadn't escaped the Israel/Gaza/West Bank go through life feeling like the Israelis treat them like barnyard animals and my work with Israelis was that they think of Palestinians as no better than barnyard animals.

they did not carpet bomb rafah last night, they might later but they didn’t last night.
I know some West Bank Palestinians well, both Muslims and Catholic and Israelis , and it really depends who they are, just like Americans. There is a range of feelings.
I should say that I have seen Palestinians get bad treatment by city govt people in St.
Paul, Mn. I don’t know if they felt they were likely barnyard animals, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
I have no idea how things have changed Israel now. Hamas killing off the peaceniks and Kibbutzim probably didn’t help. If they had killed off the West Bank settlers it might be different, there seem to be a fair number of Israelis that don’t support their actions.
I should say that none of the West Bank ones I have known would have been in Gaza after Hamas took over. The West Bank PLA apparently is bad enough corruption wise.

They certainly don't think of Israelis as expendable barnyard animals. They think of them as invaders, as the Palestinians were there when, contrary to international efforts at the time, the Israelis dropped down on their heads after WWII.

Since the only way to make a living wage from Gaza was to have permission to work in Israel, a good many Palestinians just were keeping their heads down and mouths shut. (While, yes, many of those were supporting the Hamas as one of the only options given to them to have a future since the current Israeli PM wouldn't even discuss anyone else handling government in Gaza and, in the meantime, is encouraging Israeli settlers to displace Palestinians territorially). Most of the other Palestinians living in Gaza only were able to survive because Palestinian family members living elsewhere sent money home. Palestinians in the region aren't really in the position to interact with Isrealis at all unless they've managed to get a job to work for them--in Israel.

Yes, the Hamas 7 October attack was horrific. It also was stupid, as the response was predictable. It didn't happen without the current Trumpish Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu closing down on all other options, however. It didn't just drop out of the blue as an idea to try out that day.

I'm guessing you never were in Israel working anything like this issue.

you are forgetting the majority of Israelis that were from other missle east countries. There were also Jews in Isreal all along. Only 44% of Israel is white/European and 10% of those came long after ww2 from the former soviet republics.
According to Hamas they planned Oct 7 for years, and while Bibi is awful, he just provided the timing because of the protests Hamas say Israel as weakened , they also saw the US as weak since we couldn’t pick a speaker of the house and all the Jan 6 legal mess. I will try to find the link. Do you understand Arabic?
UNWRA claims to give Gazans money to survive and places to live. I realize much of that may have been siphoned off to Hamas.
I know my Palestinian friends from the West Bank, who are Muslims and Catholics, have avoided Gaza like the plague since Hamas got power. I have been told the Palestinian Authority is also corrupt but nowhere near as bad.
The Israeli settlements are awful, and Netanyahu and the lakud needs to go.

 

[Lazaran]

According to Hamas they planned Oct 7 for years,

Not that it justifies the Hamas animal’s action’s on October 7th, but I would imagine the corrupt orange traitor moving the U.S. embassy in Israel to Jerusalem likely played a part in their decision to begin plans for the October 7th attack.

The timing was likely based on a confluence of events including those you mentioned.

The Jewish Holiday and it being Putin’s birthday likely factored into the exact date of the attack as well.

*nods*

 

[ishtat]

Israel is carrying out a policy of ethnic cleansing on both the West Bank and in Gaza. I am not making any moral judgments, the conduct of both sides is shameful and blame allocation is pointless. Netanyahu and the Hamas leadership can only be understood on the basis that they are both criminally insane; neither will take the slightest notice of the USA nor anyone else.

 

[jaF0]

Isolation of the Israeli terrorist state begins:

Dutch court orders government to stop exporting fighter jet parts to Israel​

A trio of organizations filed a civil suit, arguing the Netherlands is violating international law by supplying parts for aircraft the Israeli government is using to bomb Gaza.

 

[KeithD]

The CNN reporter said the Raffah bombing started immediately after the hostages were pulled out--to cover their helicopter escape--not before. I just got out of bed; I'll have to check on whether there is updated information on the death toll from this Israeli operation.

The Palestinians did not VOTE Hamas into power in Gaza. The Israelis won't agree to reestablishing a voted-in government in Gaza. That opened to Hamas grabbing control there.

This area was called Palestine before the Zionists decided to grab it and displace the Palestinian population there after WWII. They were invaders (I would have given them Bavaria or some other conquered land. The Palestinians didn't take sides in WWII). Israel is still working on displacing (at best; irradicating at worst) the Palestinians who were in Palestine before the Zionists decided that's where they would create a country.

The 7 October attack wasn't something that the civilian population of Gaza voted for Hamas to do. Some percentage of them supported/support Hamas action, yes, but Hamas is the power with the guns in Gaza and due to Netanyahu-controlled policies, there has been no effort to establish a better government there.

 

[BrightShinyGirl]

The CNN reporter said the Raffah bombing started immediately after the hostages were pulled out--to cover their helicopter escape--not before. I just got out of bed; I'll have to check on whether there is updated information on the death toll from this Israeli operation.

The Palestinians did not VOTE Hamas into power in Gaza. The Israelis won't agree to reestablishing a voted-in government in Gaza. That opened to Hamas grabbing control there.

This area was called Palestine before the Zionists decided to grab it and displace the Palestinian population there after WWII. They were invaders (I would have given them Bavaria or some other conquered land. The Palestinians didn't take sides in WWII). Israel is still working on displacing (at best; irradicating at worst) the Palestinians who were in Palestine before the Zionists decided that's where they would create a country.

The 7 October attack wasn't something that the civilian population of Gaza voted for Hamas to do. Some percentage of them supported/support Hamas action, yes, but Hamas is the power with the guns in Gaza and due to Netanyahu-controlled policies, there has been no effort to establish a better government there.

“Palestine” was its colonial name in an attempt to erase the indigenous identity of the Jews.

 

[KeithD]

“Palestine” was its colonial name in an attempt to erase the indigenous identity of the Jews.

The regional term goes back to the 13th Century BCE. Claims such as yours are meant to wipe out the reality that there was a non-Jewish population in the area back through history and was still there when the Zionists unilaterally decided to militarily found a nation there and displace much of the population existing there that was not composed of Jews. That effort continues to today and the displacement/eradication element is shown in the military operation policy of Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu.

 

[HisArpy]

Yes, it was great that any hostages were saved. The cost in Palestinians to cover pulling them out was god awful, though. Isreal bombed the shit out of Raffah immediately after the hostages were extracted. The Gaza Palestinians have constantly been told to move out of the way with nowhere to do that. They aren't all innocent of why Israel is operating in Gaza, but they aren't all guilty of doing anything but trying to live in a cage they've been kept in for decades.

It's nice, though, that now Israel has directly saved more of the hostages (4) than that Israeli soldiers in Gaza themselves killed when they were trying to let them know they were hostages (3).

All the Palestinians had to do in order to avoid those "losses" was to let the hostages go and surrender.

 

[HisArpy]

Israel is carrying out a policy of ethnic cleansing on both the West Bank and in Gaza. I am not making any moral judgments, the conduct of both sides is shameful and blame allocation is pointless. Netanyahu and the Hamas leadership can only be understood on the basis that they are both criminally insane; neither will take the slightest notice of the USA nor anyone else.

For an ethnic cleansing operation they sure are letting a lot of refugees go free. Just saying...

 

[ishtat]

For an ethnic cleansing operation they sure are letting a lot of refugees go free. Just saying...

"Free"! Freedom to go where? Freedom to leave Gaza? Freedom to Live? - they do not even have any freedom to die. They die because Netanyahu insists that they do. After they and their forbears have lived in this land for 3,500 years. They are not free, and have no prospects of anything except annihilation.

 

[HisArpy]

"Free"! Freedom to go where? Freedom to leave Gaza? Freedom to Live? - they do not even have any freedom to die. They die because Netanyahu insists that they do. After they and their forbears have lived in this land for 3,500 years. They are not free, and have no prospects of anything except annihilation.

The residents of Gaza are free to move away from the fighting. Israel even established safe travel corridors for them. So don't even try to BULLSHIT US that they're being slaughtered. They aren't.

Further, any Gazan who wishes to apply for Israeli citizenship can still do so. Once given citizenship that person can move from Gaza into Israel and even vote. So again, DO NOT BULLSHIT US.

 

[ishtat]

The residents of Gaza are free to move away from the fighting. Israel even established safe travel corridors for them. So don't even try to BULLSHIT US that they're being slaughtered. They aren't.

Further, any Gazan who wishes to apply for Israeli citizenship can still do so. Once given citizenship that person can move from Gaza into Israel and even vote. So again, DO NOT BULLSHIT US.

So given that since 2003 when the current Prime Minister Netanyahu declared himself against the addition of Gazan and West bank Arabs as Israeli citizens, why has the government routinely. refused to even consider applications from males under 35. The right to apply exists on paper; in reality it does not happen. If you want to yell Bullshit, tell us the numbers who have been accepted over the last 20 years. You can do it on your fingers.

 

[ll74]

So given that since 2003 when the current Prime Minister Netanyahu declared himself against the addition of Gazan and West bank Arabs as Israeli citizens, why has the government routinely. refused to even consider applications from males under 35. The right to apply exists on paper; in reality it does not happen. If you want to yell Bullshit, tell us the numbers who have been accepted over the last 20 years. You can do it on your fingers.

This

Lots of "we allow everyone" in speech, but not in practice.

 

[HisArpy]

So given that since 2003 when the current Prime Minister Netanyahu declared himself against the addition of Gazan and West bank Arabs as Israeli citizens, why has the government routinely. refused to even consider applications from males under 35. The right to apply exists on paper; in reality it does not happen. If you want to yell Bullshit, tell us the numbers who have been accepted over the last 20 years. You can do it on your fingers.

Your problem is that you automatically ascribe sinister motives to the law. People can manipulate the law for ideological purposes but THE LAW itself is neutral.

So, while I talk "law" you talk political motives and attempt to link them as the same thing when they are not. Worse, you ignore actual facts in your attempts to do so.

Or did you actually "forget" about those corridors that Israel set up for the Gazans to use to evacuate? Or the fact that Hamas is using threats to keep their fellow citizens from using the corridors?