2003 Survivor Non-English Discussion Thread #2

[Chicklet]

Hey Everybody!

Okay, I see that this is a heated discussion. Everyone feel free to post all opinions here, and we'll see what everyone is thinking, okay?

Personally, I believe that every story submitted for this contest ought to be an original. I wanted to cap the non-english category, like we cap the poetry, because I thought that way people would still be able to fill every category. The argument against that was that no one wanted a story category to be capped. If we could keep writing originals, why should we cap them? So I decided on the Original Story rule. Every story in the contest, atm, must be an original.

Arguments I'm hearing are that if someone has the ability to translate a story, it takes their time and effort to translate it into another language. I agree, it does indeed, but it takes no time at all to run something through a translating program. There's nothing wrong with using the program if you're doing an original story, since you've already done the same work. In my opinion, this makes the contest fair.

On the other hand, I agree that this is taking away an advantage that multi-language speakers have. But this is a writing contest, isn't it? Not a language contest. I'm truly sorry that this category is giving us so much grief, and instead of stating that you think the rule is unfair, I would really appreciate it if someone could come up with another system that everyone would agree on, or that would make everyone at least mildly happier with the contest.

Thank you, and I'm excited to hear your responses.

Chicklet

 

[indigo sky]

Arguments I'm hearing are that if someone has the ability to translate a story, it takes their time and effort to translate it into another language.

True, it does take time to translate stories, on that I absolutely agree. However, the last time I checked this was a writing contest, not a translating contest.

Now, before my head is ripped neatly from my throat, can someone who is for unlimited translating of any material please explain to me why translating a story is the same as writing an original for another category. Besides the sheer quantity, which yes, I realize is the reason people want it.

For instance, I can write a BDSM story involving 2 women. However, I have to choose one category not two. In my mind the translation issue follows suit. Think of it this way, if you wrote the tune Happy Birthday to be played by the flute...and then you decided to rearrange it so it could be played by kazoo...it would still be Happy Birthday....same deal applies to these translations.

I think it's pretty simple, original stories, written in Non-English should be counted. It's a writing contest and all of us are challenged to write in categories foreign to us. This one should be no different.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: non-english rule

originaly posted by chicklet
On the other hand, I agree that this is taking away an advantage that multi-language speakers have. But this is a writing contest, isn't it? Not a language contest. I'm truly sorry that this category is giving us so much grief, and instead of stating that you think the rule is unfair, I would really appreciate it if someone could come up with another system that everyone would agree on, or that would make everyone at least mildly happier with the contest.

Thank you, and I'm excited to hear your responses. :

chicklet said she would appreciate it if anyone could come up with a rule that everyone could agree was fair. So I'm reposting my suggestion from earlier and asking if others agree that this would be a fair rule. In my oppinion, using an electric translator and using a human translator are the same thing and both should be allowed, as long as it is your orriginal story. As chicklet said, its a writing contest.

JMHO, but I think the non-english rule should be that it has to be *your* story, but its ok to get someone to translate it for you. Not everybody speaks a forein language, but most could get one story translated if we tried (online penpales, editors, friends or neighbors, ect) Also, not all of us have, or can offord to get, translation software. So I think its an unfair disadvantage bc. for those who don't speak a second language have no way to overcome this obstacle. We should at least have a chance. (Also unfairly punishes honesty)

But I will abide by whatever decision is made.

:humbly lowers head and awaits responce:

and yes, I could learn a forein language, however its highly inprobable that after less than a year of study, I'll be fluent enough to write or translate an entire story that I would feel proud to post. I think the same would be true for anyone. Learning a new language is a complex skill involving first learning to understand, then speak then read, then write. It also involves use of new grammer rules, syntax and more. In order to be good at it, it takes more than 8 months.

 

[DarlingNikki]

Re: reply to 2 chele and nikki

[B
Everyone should be able to participate in every category that they want to. If they choose not to, that is a diferent story. If you where in a triatholon with a bird man and the third leg was flight, it would be unfair for you not to be able to use mechanical means. It would be wrong of the contest coordinators to say, "this contest is voluntary anyway so your not being punished bc you can't fly. Birdman only had the advantage in one category of the event." Well that might be a silly example, but you get my point. [/B]

Let's put your analogy back into the realm of human possibility. We'll keep your triathlon but make the last leg a more reality based bicycle race and you were competing with bike riders. It would be silly for you to say "but by my own choice I never learned how to ride a bike, so I should be allowed to drive."

Although I do like your reasoning. I'm going to call up American Idol and ask them to let me just stand on stage and recite the song lyrics. Why should I be punished because I can't sing??

Chicklet - as far as suggestions, I really don't know. Personally I'm for doing our own translations, without computer or human help (editing is ok, though). Second choice is to keep the contest as is.

 

[Chicklet]

Think of it this way, if you wrote the tune Happy Birthday to be played by the flute...and then you decided to rearrange it so it could be played by kazoo...it would still be Happy Birthday....

lmao

i'm sorry

that was just too funny

 

[sweetnpetite]

Re: Re: reply to 2 chele and nikki

Let's put your analogy back into the realm of human possibility. We'll keep your triathlon but make the last leg a more reality based bicycle race and you were competing with bike riders. It would be silly for you to say "but by my own choice I never learned how to ride a bike, so I should be allowed to drive."

Although I do like your reasoning. I'm going to call up American Idol and ask them to let me just stand on stage and recite the song lyrics. Why should I be punished because I can't sing??

But its a *singing* contest on a singing show. this is a writing contest on a writing site, not a language contest.

They do have categories on american idol. one night its country music night. Now you hate country music and don't know any songs to sing. But you find one you think you can do and do your best. That's fair.

Latin music is hot, so maybe they decide to have a latin music night. Ok, so can I sing "livin la vida loca' or do I have to sing a song entirely in spanish? Obviously it would be very unfair to require contestants to sing in a forein language. Even though we all learned "Silent Night" in German without understanding the language, time doesn't permit on the show for contestants to learn to perform at a profesional level in another language. Its certainly *possible* but its unduly dificult for a contest about singing. Sure, if they already know how, they can use that extra to dazzle the audience, but its far from required.

Foreign language- or any other category- is not an "optional" category for this contest. Even though no-one is forcing you to write in it, it is part of the contest. To call it optional is somewhat like saying you can opt out of the bathing suite competition for Miss America. It is going to effect your overall score. Whereas "Most Photogenic" is a side contest, chosen by the press which does not effect your contest scores. That is an "optional category."

If we make the rule that it has to be your story but you can get it translated by whatever means neccesary, you make it very fair and elimanate virtually any chance of cheating. You avoid punishing honesty and pride in ones work. It makes about as much sence to say that you can't translate the story at all, but you must write it in the other language in the first place. Its kind of silly to make a rule that really can' t be enforced. Because I have no real way of knowing or determining how you translated your story, wheather you do it yourself, with a program or with human help. I don't know what languages you do or don't speak or how well. I think requireing contestants to do something that you have know way of knowing weather or not they did is just silly.

 

[Chicklet]

Re: Re: Re: reply to 2 chele and nikki

Foreign language- or any other category- is not an "optional" category for this contest. Even though no-one is forcing you to write in it, it is part of the contest.

That's not quite true- this is why we have the immunities every week.

 

[DarlingNikki]

Re: Re: Re: reply to 2 chele and nikki

But its a *singing* contest on a singing show. this is a writing contest on a writing site, not a language contest.

They do have categories on american idol. one night its country music night. Now you hate country music and don't know any songs to sing. But you find one you think you can do and do your best. That's fair.

Latin music is hot, so maybe they decide to have a latin music night. Ok, so can I sing "livin la vida loca' or do I have to sing a song entirely in spanish? Obviously it would be very unfair to require contestants to sing in a forein language. Even though we all learned "Silent Night" in German without understanding the language, time doesn't permit on the show for contestants to learn to perform at a profesional level in another language. Its certainly *possible* but its unduly dificult for a contest about singing. Sure, if they already know how, they can use that extra to dazzle the audience, but its far from required.

Foreign language- or any other category- is not an "optional" category for this contest. Even though no-one is forcing you to write in it, it is part of the contest. To call it optional is somewhat like saying you can opt out of the bathing suite competition for Miss America. It is going to effect your overall score. Whereas "Most Photogenic" is a side contest, chosen by the press which does not effect your contest scores. That is an "optional category."

If we make the rule that it has to be your story but you can get it translated by whatever means neccesary, you make it very fair and elimanate virtually any chance of cheating. You avoid punishing honesty and pride in ones work. It makes about as much sence to say that you can't translate the story at all, but you must write it in the other language in the first place. Its kind of silly to make a rule that really can' t be enforced. Because I have no real way of knowing or determining how you translated your story, wheather you do it yourself, with a program or with human help. I don't know what languages you do or don't speak or how well. I think requireing contestants to do something that you have know way of knowing weather or not they did is just silly.

I'll assume that since you didn't address the triathlon analogy again that I made my point.

Your interpretation of the American Idol analogy doesn't work either. If the contest has "Latin night" you're required to sing some sort of Latin song on that particular night. The survivor doesn't require you to submit stories in a variety of categories, and certainly not on demand. We don't have "Incest Night" where we each have to submit an incest story or we're out. The goal is to rack up points and you're allowed to do this in any way possible.

Miss America contestants must also do certain things at certain times. In the survivor contest, anyone who can't compete in the swimsuit competition is welcome to compete in talent as many times as she would like instead.

But there's no need to keep arguing back and forth. We've both made our positions clear. It's poor Chicklet who has to make the final decision.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Poorly translated stories are a punishment on the readers, not the authors. I say that any original story submitted and accepted, no matter what means were used for the translation, should count.

But I also say that, as a reader, if I see any story whose translation is so poor it defies the definition of non-english (as in, it needs to be make sense in some other non-made up language), I intend to do all I can to have it removed, and it certainly wouldn't be fair to include it in the contest.

 

[Elle_xxoo]

Man, oh, man. Some of you are really a bunch of babies. You act like you're entitled to have this contest made as easy as possible for you. Grow up! If you can't write in another language, skip that category!

I was thinking of joining this contest and I read through the discussion thread and this thread. Then I had a peek at some of the stories submitted by the various contestants. I think it's extremely amusing that those who are most vocal about wanting the contest to be as easy for them as possible are the ones who, well, can't write. Grammar, spelling, sentance structure, logic are all important, even in stroke stories.

You guys are lucky this contest is based on quantity and not quality.

I can see how it's pretty impossible to make it based on quality given that people might vote down stories just to win. Maybe everyone who competes can vote on their top three picks for overal quality in the body of work at the end of the year and that could have a bearing on the overall winner? I know that's problematic too but there has to be something that can be done.

I decided not to compete in this contest. I know what you're going to say - Who cares? We don't need you. And your point is well taken. You don't need me. You won't be missing out on anything if I don't join in. But you're just cheating yourselves and other readers if you just keep generating vast piles of misspelled, barely readable crap and thinking you deserve to win something for it.

xxoo Elle

 

[indigo sky]

gee

that was constructive...that clears everything up.

thanks so much for having the guts to shit all over people's hard work, that takes a lot of courage.

next...

 

[Chicklet]

xxoo Elle

Congrats, Elle. You have won the award for the single most hateful, vicious post I have *ever* seen on lit, including the general board.

<applause>

Now, back to the real discussion...

 

[sweetnpetite]

Poorly translated stories are a punishment on the readers, not the authors. I say that any original story submitted and accepted, no matter what means were used for the translation, should count.

But I also say that, as a reader, if I see any story whose translation is so poor it defies the definition of non-english (as in, it needs to be make sense in some other non-made up language), I intend to do all I can to have it removed, and it certainly wouldn't be fair to include it in the contest.

Amen to that. very well put.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

You guys are lucky this contest is based on quantity and not quality.
But you're just cheating yourselves and other readers if you just keep generating vast piles of misspelled, barely readable crap and thinking you deserve to win something for it.

xxoo Elle

*annoyingly smug grin*

AS IF you could write better than ME!!!

 

[obedientpet]

On the other hand, I agree that this is taking away an advantage that multi-language speakers have. But this is a writing contest, isn't it? Not a language contest. I'm truly sorry that this category is giving us so much grief, and instead of stating that you think the rule is unfair, I would really appreciate it if someone could come up with another system that everyone would agree on, or that would make everyone at least mildly happier with the contest.

I think this is very fair and that you do not need to add or change a thing. As you said, this is a writing contest. (And I've read elswhere that some people had concerns of authors "pumping out crap" simply to win instead of writing quality.) Truly we should be judged on quality and not quantity, but since ratings go up and down constantly that would be hard to keep track of. And, I think this contest has been a fun challenge so far. There are categories here I would never have thought of writing in in the past, but here I am writing for them!

 

[obedientpet]

I was thinking of joining this contest and I read through the discussion thread and this thread. Then I had a peek at some of the stories submitted by the various contestants. I think it's extremely amusing that those who are most vocal about wanting the contest to be as easy for them as possible are the ones who, well, can't write. Grammar, spelling, sentance structure, logic are all important, even in stroke stories.

How ironic. Is your spelling ability bad, or is this a "typo"? Also, your sentence structure isn't that good. Were you ever taught that when you "list" more than two items not only do you use commas to separate the words, but you use "and" before the last word in the list.


Such as:
Grammar, spelling, sentence structure, and logic are all important, even in stroke stories.


Also, it's much easier to be a "critic" when you don't offer your work, mind, and soul to the public butchers.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

You're being gratuitously vicious and you know it. That's probably the crappiest rule of amateur writing.

Exactly to what do you object in Elle's post, by the way? She made a remark about how the contest is based on quantity and not on quality, which is true; she said there were crappy stories being entered (not that all of them were crap), which is true and everyone knows it or we wouldn't have poetry caps, for instance; she made a suggestion for altering the rules of the contest, which you may like or, seeing it goes against the spirit of the competition, not.

Maybe you weren't all prepared to hear it, but if you were so certain of your value as a writer you wouldn't have taken notice of the accusations. They surely didn't wouldn't have you as target.

And questions should end in question marks, as in 'Were you ever taught that when you "list" more than two items not only do you use commas to separate the words, but you use "and" before the last word in the list?'. And sentences never start with 'and'.

 

[Chicklet]

Exactly to what do you object in Elle's post, by the way?

I object to Elle's post because of the lack of offense in her post in the Author's Hangout. She posted a question and a defense on her position there days before she posted in this thread, and I responded to her there. The fact that this post is so much more hostile and directed towards us even more than the post in the Author's Hangout is what upset me. If she'd come in to this thread with the same attitude she seemed to posess in the General Board, then I wouldn't have said that previous comment to her. As it was, knowing her last post, this one seemed particularly vicious, especially when she commented that we seemed to feel we were entitled to have this contest made as easy as possible for us.

That was my objection.

Obedientpet, please don't sink to anothers level by harassing them in this thread. This is supposed to be a debate about whether we ought to change the rules for NonEnglish or not.

-Chicklet

 

[DarlingNikki]

I object to Elle's post because of the lack of offense in her post in the Author's Hangout. She posted a question and a defense on her position there days before she posted in this thread, and I responded to her there.

-Chicklet

?? It looks like she posted in here half an hour on the same day before posting in the Author's Hangout.

Anyway what's the verdict on the non-English? Not that it will affect me as I already used an immunity... just wondering.

I can't believe how much I'm getting into this contest and thinking of different scenarios for different categories... it's so exciting!

 

[obedientpet]

I wasn't harassing anyone. I was asking the expert questions about her English...but I won't reply here anymore. Sorry I pissed you off.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I wasn't harassing anyone. I was asking the expert questions about her English...but I won't reply here anymore. Sorry I pissed you off.

I think what you said was fine. She was the one who was viscious not you. But chicklet is right about one thing. We should get back to the topic on hand. Don't stop posting here

 

[obedientpet]

We should get back to the topic on hand.

Well, I do agree with that part.

 

[Chicklet]

Anyway what's the verdict on the non-English? Not that it will affect me as I already used an immunity... just wondering.

I can't believe how much I'm getting into this contest and thinking of different scenarios for different categories... it's so exciting!

I'm glad that you're getting exactly what I think is most exciting out of this contest = )

So far, no new verdict on the Non-English category.

 

[PenanceS]

I'm glad that you're getting exactly what I think is most exciting out of this contest = )

So far, no new verdict on the Non-English category.

Thank-You chicklet.
As you said this is a writing contest, not a Spelling, or non English contest...
(and yes, I am dyslexic) so if there are a few spelling errors, sorry.
Bottom line folks, this is all about writing,Challenging ourselves to try catagories we never would have thought of trying, its like getting into the deep end of the pool. You don't know lest you try. This also goes for how much of it we can do, to go beyond what we think we can normally do... I think, if I'm Wrong, someone please correct me. Anywho... Goodluck everyone, and lets not forget... Have fun out there.
Penance

 

[sweetnpetite]

I'm glad that you're getting exactly what I think is most exciting out of this contest = )

So far, no new verdict on the Non-English category.

Just to clarify, what exaclty was thte old verdict?