75 years since Hiroshima.

[Rightguide]

But the other thing is:
Why weren't I (raised in an ex-socialist/commie country) and you (raised in a capitalist one) taught about the duplicitous role of rich industrialists in the war?

I only became aware on Lit., that American and other rich moguls had financed&armed Hitler.
Very few movies -I think only Bugsy- alluded to that.

History has always been written by a subgroup of historians who are selected based on 'the only ones who suck rich cock, will be published.'
Thank God for youtube and the internet. They have their downsides, but they also give a platform to dissenting vouces.

If you got your history knowledge on Lit, you need to go back to your research.

 

[oggbashan]

Hamburg might have been worse, but tough shit. The Germans shouldn't have declared war on the US.

They also shouldn't have bombed London, Coventry, Liverpool, and many other UK cities, nor sent V1s and V2s to slaughter at random.

They sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

 

[Rightguide]

They also shouldn't have bombed London, Coventry, Liverpool, and many other UK cities, nor sent V1s and V2s to slaughter at random.

They sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

Exactly, and justly so. It's all on them.

 

[sundries]

If you got your history knowledge on Lit, you need to go back to your research.

Please stop the 'deflection via condescension' bullshit.

My knowledge of history Is rudimentary indeed, but the person gave us references from reputable historians.
I just struggle to recall or find the links.

Bottomline is: several rich Americans sold armament to & financed Hitler, even after he invaded Europe.

Why was that never included in History books?

Why did they still get to be rich and pass on their riches to their descendants?
while other people continued to be judged for lesser crimes against humanity, by International tribunals

 

[Wrong Element]

They're only atrocities when they happen to you?

This is the guiding principle of most schoolkids' history books ever written, and not just in the United States.

I think it's possible to keep believe that Hiroshima was a tragedy, that the war which destroyed millions of families including mine wasn't our idea, and that the world in general is fortunate that the U.S. was the country that got the bomb first.

 

[oggbashan]

Hiroshima and Nagasaki ended a war that the US hadn't started and hadn't wanted to be involved in - and wouldn't have been but for Japanese aggression that started in the 1930s.

Without them, the Japanese military government would have forced all Japanese to fight to the last man and woman, killing millions. However many were killed by nuclear bombs, they are a small number compared with the numbers who would have died if the Japanese mainland had been invaded by the US, its Allies, and the USSR.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki saved millions of Japanese.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Only by knowing actual history will one not repeat past mistakes.


The Japanese fiercely responded to our unilateral fire bombing of civilian targets. We started it...they responded and defended their homeland so fiercely that the bomb(s) was finally used....
.... again, on civilians. This is a war crime and atrocity inspite of the outcome (real and imagined).

Yes. Actual history is good. So let’s look at some.

The Japanese invaded China in mid-1937. (China was to become one of the five major allied powers, along with France, the UK, the USA and the USSR.) 10-25 million Chinese died in the next eight years, most of them civilian, many of them in Japanese air raids on civilian populations.

Not counting the small and ineffective Doolittle raid with B-25s in April 1942, the first US air raid on mainland Japan was flown out of China in June 1944. (By that time, the Japanese had invaded China, Singapore, Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia, New Guinea, Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. The list of war crimes committed by Japanese forces during their conquest and occupation is lengthy and still shocking.) B-29 raids based in China were small and not very effective mainly due to logistical issues; it was not until November 1944 that the capture of Saipan made larger B-29 raids on the Japanese homeland possible. Actually, it was not until March, 1945 that a switch was made from relatively harmless high-altitude bombing to very effective low-altitude firebombing raids. By that time, the war had been going on for years and the Japanese had killed millions of civilians; only then, literally months before the war was to end, were Japanese civilians in being killed in any significant numbers.

It is, in other words, very hard to say convincingly that US firebombing was somehow responsible for the Japanese actions, nor is it all that reasonable to label it as ‘unilateral’.

Moreover, WRT Hiroshima and Nagasaki being war crimes, any protection offered by the Geneva Conventions and such is lost if military targets are placed amidst the civilian population. You cannot, for instance, site a civilian hospital in the middle of an army base and expect the enemy not to bomb the base because of that. It just doesn’t work that way.

Hiroshima was the headquarters of the 2nd General Army, the 59th Army and several Army divisions. It was an important port. It contained military and naval supply depots and numerous military factories. Nagasaki was an industrial town, producing engines and gun barrels. It was a naval port and shipyard and had numerous depots, including a major one for torpedoes. These were, by any definition, military targets; by putting them in the middle of a civilian population, the Japanese had deprived that population of legal protection under the Conventions.

The bombings of the two cities were indeed tragedies – as are all incidents in all wars. That doesn’t somehow render them criminal, nor the US (which had consulted both Britain and Canada beforehand) guilty of some unprecedented evil.

 

[oggbashan]

PS. Although the western allies operated under the Geneva conventions, the Japanese were not signatories to them.

 

[sundries]

That Clinton nubiles creampie slurper
intentionally dropped depleted Uranium bombs in Europe and Middle East.

To this day, the cancer casualties outnomber by at least 1000 times, the people they claim that Milošević ordered to be killed.
Ironically, recent investigations revealed that the no. of people murdered were tons less, were done by rogue psychopaths and Milošević didn't order that.

You think American, Russian and Brit. soldiers didn't have psychopaths too, who took advantage?

And how come nobody mentions the American bankers who became rich by arming Hitler?


History is written by cocksuckers to the rich and powerful.

 

[FescueFan]

That Clinton nubiles creampie slurper
intentionally dropped depleted Uranium bombs in Europe and Middle East.

To this day, the cancer casualties outnomber by at least 1000 times, the people they claim that Milošević ordered to be killed.
Ironically, recent investigations revealed that the no. of people murdered were tons less, were done by rogue psychopaths and Milošević didn't order that.

You think American, Russian and Brit. soldiers didn't have psychopaths too, who took advantage?

And how come nobody mentions the American bankers who became rich by arming Hitler?


History is written by cocksuckers to the rich and powerful.

Don't forget all the DU rounds!!!
https://img.ifunny.co/images/38ba458ed1c1cd63bdc94f8ca715d250ea39b74e86eef9ce596a6dc66c1f8d88_1.jpg
https://img.ifunny.co/images/cc3f933cdbb4a15a6ce132622a96d6b3b0e0fae0a35726c48273a776022894e0_1.gif


Continue crying about rich people and for scum bags because America BAD!!!



===============================================================================




LOL...I really hope some shit pops off on the international front, especially Europe. ...I want ISIS to take that fucking shithole over and PURGE whiteness from the continent.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

That Clinton nubiles creampie slurper
intentionally dropped depleted Uranium bombs in Europe and Middle East.

Point of fact, there is no such thing as a ‘depleted Uranium bomb’. DU is a metal used in armour-piercing projectiles. It does not, cannot explode.

To this day, the cancer casualties outnomber by at least 1000 times, the people they claim that Milošević ordered to be killed..

You have a source for that claim, maybe?

FWIW, the World Cancer Research Fund (https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/cancer-trends/data-cancer-frequency-country) shows Serbia’s overall cancer rate as below the UK’s, below Germany, below Switzerland, below Australia – and, yes, well below the USA’s. While by some (quite incomplete) lists Serbia has a low cancer survival rate, that is as easily attributable to the quality of medical care available. But, I’m sure you have evidence, some reputable scientific source. I’d love to be convinced.

 

[jaF0]

All I see here is justification after the fact. History written and explained by the victors (odd term, isn't it?). Had it been the other way around ... Japanese ingenuity taking out Los Angeles and Seattle, what would we be saying now? Would we be so cavalier?

The fact remains, the United States is the only country in history (so far) to have used a Nuclear device on a non-test target. No one can spin that away.

 

[Rightguide]

Please stop the 'deflection via condescension' bullshit.

My knowledge of history Is rudimentary indeed, but the person gave us references from reputable historians.
I just struggle to recall or find the links.

Bottomline is: several rich Americans sold armament to & financed Hitler, even after he invaded Europe.

Why was that never included in History books?

Why did they still get to be rich and pass on their riches to their descendants?
while other people continued to be judged for lesser crimes against humanity, by International tribunals

Name them.

 

[WillJ8787]

Yes. Actual history is good. So let’s look at some.

The Chinese invaded China in mid-1937. (China was to become one of the five major allied powers, along with France, the UK, the USA and the USSR.) 10-25 million Chinese died in the next eight years, most of them civilian, many of them in Japanese air raids on civilian populations.

Not counting the small and ineffective Doolittle raid with B-25s in April 1942, the first US air raid on mainland Japan was flown out of China in June 1944. (By that time, the Japanese had invaded China, Singapore, Indonesia, the Philippines, Malaysia, New Guinea, Burma, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc. The list of war crimes committed by Japanese forces during their conquest and occupation is lengthy and still shocking.) B-29 raids based in China were small and not very effective mainly due to logistical issues; it was not until November 1944 that the capture of Saipan made larger B-29 raids on the Japanese homeland possible. Actually, it was not until March, 1945 that a switch was made from relatively harmless high-altitude bombing to very effective low-altitude firebombing raids. By that time, the war had been going on for years and the Japanese had killed millions of civilians; only then, literally months before the war was to end, were Japanese civilians in being killed in any significant numbers.

It is, in other words, very hard to say convincingly that US firebombing was somehow responsible for the Japanese actions, nor is it all that reasonable to label it as ‘unilateral’.

Moreover, WRT Hiroshima and Nagasaki being war crimes, any protection offered by the Geneva Conventions and such is lost if military targets are placed amidst the civilian population. You cannot, for instance, site a civilian hospital in the middle of an army base and expect the enemy not to bomb the base because of that. It just doesn’t work that way.

Hiroshima was the headquarters of the 2nd General Army, the 59th Army and several Army divisions. It was an important port. It contained military and naval supply depots and numerous military factories. Nagasaki was an industrial town, producing engines and gun barrels. It was a naval port and shipyard and had numerous depots, including a major one for torpedoes. These were, by any definition, military targets; by putting them in the middle of a civilian population, the Japanese had deprived that population of legal protection under the Conventions.

The bombings of the two cities were indeed tragedies – as are all incidents in all wars. That doesn’t somehow render them criminal, nor the US (which had consulted both Britain and Canada beforehand) guilty of some unprecedented evil.

Yeah, the US wasn't concerned with what was happening in China. Nor was it very concerned about Europe. The quintessential moment was Pearl. That is when we started a major policy shift away from Isolation so I really don't understand your point about China.

Also, that's very cavalier about killing civilians. Is just goes to show we(the USA) hasn't had the moral high ground for a very long time if ever.

 

[sundries]

Name them.

Look, I don't want to do that because I don't have enough knowledge to be able to come up with good links & sustain an argument.
I'm throwing these here in the hope that you guys who are more versed, could ellaborate.

What I'm certain of, are two facts that I learned about from others:

1. some American rich people financed Hitler's war, in the beginning. They made money out of selling armament to Nazis.

2. It took a lot of persuasion to convince American laypeople to get involved in Europe's wars. Authorities financed war propaganda movies, and employed Edward Bernay (Sigmund Freud's nephew) as head of Propaganda department.
-- I have no doubt that America's intervention on the war ended up being a good thing, but laypeople just don't like wars and carnage.


I think that these two fascinating facts are left out of History books.
Had they been included, we would all have a more nuanced discussion.

 

[jaF0]

just goes to show we(the USA) hasn't had the moral high ground for a very long time if ever.

Removal and Trail of Tears says it goes back a whole lot farther.

 

[surdeep]

Name them.

here's a little....

In the summer of 1934, Britain signed the Anglo-German transfer agreement, which became one of the foundations of British policy towards the Third Reich, and at the end of the 30’s, Germany became the main trading partner of England. Schroeder Bank became the main agent of Germany in the UK, and in 1936 his office in New York teamed up with the Rockefellers to create the “Schroeder, Rockefeller & Co.” investment Bank, which “Times” magazine called the “economic propagandist axis of Berlin-Rome”. As Hitler himself admitted, he conceived his four-year plan on the basis of foreign financial loans, so it never inspired him with the slightest alarm.

In August 1934, American “Standard oil” in Germany acquired 730,000 acres of land and built large oil refineries that supplied the Nazis with oil. At the same time, Germany secretly took delivery of the most modern equipment for aircraft factories from the United States, which would begin the production of German planes.

Germany received a large number of military patents from American firms Pratt and Whitney”, “Douglas”, “Curtis Wright”, and American technology was building the “Junkers-87”. In 1941, when the Second world war was raging, American investments in the economy of Germany amounted to $475 million. “Standard oil” invested – 120 million, “General motors” – $35 million, ITT — $30 million, and “Ford” — $17.5 million.

The close financial and economic cooperation of Anglo-American and Nazi business circles was the background against which, in the 30’s, a policy of appeasement led to world war II.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

All I see here is justification after the fact. History written and explained by the victors (odd term, isn't it?). Had it been the other way around ... Japanese ingenuity taking out Los Angeles and Seattle, what would we be saying now? Would we be so cavalier?

The fact remains, the United States is the only country in history (so far) to have used a Nuclear device on a non-test target. No one can spin that away.

Actually, it was the justification before the fact. Japan had invaded half the Pacific, had committed major atrocities and recapturing the few strategic islands the Allies had taken had proved the Japanese to be utterly fanatic. They still had a million troops under arms and thousands of airplanes hoarded for the final battle. School children were being taught to run under Allied tanks with explosives. The Joint Chiefs staff check suggested the conventional invasion of Japan would cost a million Allied casualties and, the Japanese generals being willing to fight to the last peasant, probably six times that many Japanese. So, yeah, two A-bombs. Shock and Awe, 1945 style - something to drive home to the warlords that the Allies could not be fought to a standstill.

It sucked, it really sucked. But it worked and probably saved millions of lives.

The after-the-fact judgement is the one that says - with 20/20 hindsight and from a safe, comfy frame of reference - that the decision was wrong.

 

[oggbashan]

here's a little....

You could add - at the start of Operation Barbarossa - the Nazi invasion of Russia, the USSR was Germany's greatest trading partner. The German Luftwaffe and tank regiments trained in Russia with Stalin's agreement.

 

[hobbit.]

Thank God for youtube and the internet. They have their downsides, but they also give a platform to dissenting vouces.

OMG you believe youtube? and the internet?

what about the conspiracy theory that Mr Musk caused the Beirut explosion when testing his US Government funded laser gun from the space station, that the astronauts who came back at weekend are technicians who were needed back on the surface to complete the targeting system having completed their programming work on the space craft? that's also on the internet so it must be true....

Dresden ? shit happens especially to a country which caused a world war and carried it out with enthusiasm and which had a plan to eradicate people in gas chambers etc, as well as by direct killing them with bombs, tanks and guns (forgetting piano wire hangings). when they 'lost' though they suddenly didn't really like Hitler and what he stood for - strange though that while they had the upper hand they sat on their own hands.

Japan.... what a nice friendly people they were (at that time) its very cosy to sit back, wring your hands in disgust now. ignore how they treated people, Ill be marking VJ Day on Saturday, will I feel bad for the Japanese? NO, not for one second. I will though remember those who didnt come home or who came home so damaged they were never the same.

Maybe it was a good thing that the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki - certainly at that time from the people who lived through the war there was very little sympathy for that kindly friendly people. Maybe it did prevent the Cold war becoming a hot war.

Still virtue signalling is so rewarding.

 

[oggbashan]

One of my father's friends, who had been a POW in Singapore's notorious Changi Jail, was court-martialled after the war for decapitating a Japanese officer after the surrender who had killed over thirty POWs with the same sword.

He was acquitted on the grounds of temporary insanity. He kept the sword as a souvenir. Now it is on display in his grandson's house.

 

[hobbit.]

Yes. Actual history is good. So let’s look at some.

The Chinese invaded China in mid-1937.

Clearly Im missing something here, but how did china invade china?

 

[hobbit.]

One of my father's friends, who had been a POW in Singapore's notorious Changi Jail, was court-martialled after the war for decapitating a Japanese officer after the surrender who had killed over thirty POWs with the same sword.

He was acquitted on the grounds of temporary insanity. He kept the sword as a souvenir. Now it is on display in his grandson's house.

put quite simply they were vicious brutal sadistic little bastards.

 

[Rightguide]

here's a little....

Name the individuals. Oh, and the link to what you just posted.

 

[sundries]

Japan.... what a nice friendly people they were (at that time) its very cosy to sit back, wring your hands in disgust now. ignore how they treated people, Ill be marking VJ Day on Saturday, will I feel bad for the Japanese? NO, not for one second. I will though remember those who didnt come home or who came home so damaged they were never the same.

you know, hobbit, I'm actually dumbfounded and intrigued by East Asians.

All these years I operated under the prejudices/stereotypes that
--South Asians - backstabbing cunts,
East Asians - holly, humble, altruistic people.
--And unfortunately, innocent East Asians (Chinese in particular) are currently facing horrendous racism in Australia and Europe.

In saying that, recently I had some personal experiences that made me doubt my idealized view of East Asians.
Underneath some of my acquaintances' fake humble-nness, I started discerning an atrocious view of Eastern /SE Europeans (we're just as 'racists/bad/corrupted' as Western Europeans, but beneath E Asians or Westerners as in intelligence, morals or class).
At least S Asians are honest & upfront, which I'm coming to appreciate.