a deafening silence

[ranajja]

Oooooh, DS, I'm headed that way with my frozen bottle of Jose...


And, Laurel, just to beat a dead dog just once more--I hear you. We feel amazingly alike to be on opposite sides of the fence. We should compare notes sometime.

And I'm not talking about your disappointment (i know, sp?) over Bill, I'm talking about how we view each other's "side". It's amazing how we accuse each other of the same damn thing.

For instance, the way you feel about Bush is precisely the way I would have felt about Gore if the election would have turned out differently. And...

Oh, damn, I think I've just intellectuallized my buzz clean away. Now, I've got to start all over again. Where's my bottle of Jose?

 

[brazenblaze]

Just have to throw my hat into the ring for just a second.

As a soldier of the United States Army...I have stood by the past eight years and watch officers and enlisted get black balled, publically humilated and torn to shreads for their "indiscretions", when our Command in Chief was dipping into anything and everything while the world basically turned a blind eye. You can't command the troops and enforce a standard if you aren't to be held to the same standard. I am tickled pink that "Billy" is gone and every time that his name pops up it continues to stick in my throat.

Jesse made a public announcement denouncing CSM Mckinney went we was being investigated, and damn if he wasn't doing the same fucking (literally) thing.

Dems aren't perfect...Reps aren't perfect, but I'm damned glad that George is up there in office to bring a little honor back to the Military and to help whip away some of our shame over our leaders. An accent doesn't make a man, and neither does two months in an office make a President.

Climbing down off my soap box....bartender...please pass me a shot of that Jose.

 

[ranajja]

Dems aren't perfect...Reps aren't perfect, but I'm damned glad that George is up there in office to bring a little honor back to the Military and to help whip away some of our shame over our leaders. An accent doesn't make a man, and neither does two months in an office make a President.

Climbing down off my soap box....bartender...please pass me a shot of that Jose.

I'll drink to that!

Here's your shot, honey, I'll even cut your lime for you...

And, btw, thank you for re-enlisting. I'm awfully proud and thankful.

 

[brazenblaze]

I'll drink to that!

Here's your shot, honey, I'll even cut your lime for you...

And, btw, thank you for re-enlisting. I'm awfully proud and thankful. [/B]

Thank you...now you guys stop that before I start weeping in my drink....nothing worse than a sloppy drunk.

 

[ranajja]

Well, I could think of a few worse things...but not tonight, er, this morning. Damn, where did the time go?

Damn, where did my Jose go?

Well, well, well...

 

[Purple Haze]

George Bush, Soldier Extraordinairre!

I'm damned glad that George is up there in office to bring a little honor back to the Military

What the fuck are you drinking?

 

[Madame Pandora]

Honor My Ass

Well, yes.

I would have to say that GW HAS brought honor back to the military. Certainly anything he is not part of would benefit and gain honor from his lack of association with it.

And, since he DESERTED THE MILITARY when he was part of it, they can only be considered more honorable for the loss.

Give me a BREAK.

MP

 

[ranajja]

All right, PH and Madame P, now that we're all playing nice, don't come in here and start stirring it up again...

Here, have a shot and hush *wink*

 

[brazenblaze]

If you don't wear the boots, then you don't have a clue about the life and what it and its honor is all about.


Now where is that bartender with that new bottle of Jose I ordered?

 

[Purple Haze]

I wore the boots when you were wearing "Underoos" I suspect, but boots don't give you brains.

Have another drink.

 

[ranajja]

Brazenblaze, the bottle's on it's way. *hugs you*


Madame P - look up there *pointing up* at my earlier post to Laurel about "The One and Only Genuine Original Family Band". Be sweet, or I'm digging out my wheelbarrow *wink*



"Left and Right, like day and night--that's what makes the world go 'round..."


G'nite all...

 

[Madame Pandora]

ranajja - the only person I ever listened to when they told me to hush was my Grandmother and she's dead. If she is delivering messages through you from the afterlife, please ask her if she'd tell you her recipe for monkey bread, as the rest of the family seems to have misplaced it. Otherwise, I'll give your recommendation all it's due consideration.

brazenblaze - what military grunts fail to remember is that you serve your country, not the other way around. Definitions of "the life" and "honor" are not yours alone. If you want to tout GW as a symbol of honor for yourself, go ahead and you have my pity, but don't have the inconceivable gall to proclaim him the rejuvenator of honor to the rest of America or the United States military. He's a sham. A man who deserted his post and then had his Daddy cover his ass. I had two uncles die in service to their country, and GW does not represent THEIR honor. Not by a long fucking shot.

MP

 

[ranajja]

All right, already!

Madame P, the lateness of the hour has made me silly and has seemed to make you angry. I apologize if I have offended you.

And, btw, I have a perfectly wonderful recipe for monkey bread.

good night.

 

[brazenblaze]

Brazenblaze, the bottle's on it's way. *hugs you*


Madame P - look up there *pointing up* at my earlier post to Laurel about "The One and Only Genuine Original Family Band". Be sweet, or I'm digging out my wheelbarrow *wink*



"Left and Right, like day and night--that's what makes the world go 'round..."


G'nite all...

((ranajja)) nite...and sweet dreams.

 

[brazenblaze]

I wore the boots when you were wearing "Underoos" I suspect, but boots don't give you brains.

Have another drink.

I probably didn't even have a place for the "Underoos",
you have your opinion, I have mine...neither is RIGHT, neither is WRONG...but they are OUR opinions.


Pull up a chair and relax....it doesn't have to always be a war.

 

[Problem Child]

laurel,

Hi.

I agree, McCain was the best choice we had this last time.

Too bad the republican machine squashed him.

 

[brazenblaze]

I was going to walk away but....Fuck it

brazenblaze - what military grunts fail to remember is that you serve your country, not the other way around. Definitions of "the life" and "honor" are not yours alone. If you want to tout GW as a symbol of honor for yourself, go ahead and you have my pity, but don't have the inconceivable gall to proclaim him the rejuvenator of honor to the rest of America or the United States military. He's a sham. A man who deserted his post and then had his Daddy cover his ass. I had two uncles die in service to their country, and GW does not represent THEIR honor. Not by a long fucking shot.

MP
[/B]

First of all, "military grunts" know what they serve and don't ever have to be reminded of it by someone who couldn't, wouldn't or didn't serve. The "I pay your salary you work for me" attitude you can shove up your ass. We serve a nation, an ideal and a way of life, we protect those who can't or won't protect themselves. We protect them, but we don't "work for them" or "serve" them. The country that we love and honor isn't based in any way, shape or form on the individuals who occupy it. It is based on the ideals that is was orginally founded upon.

Pity and Gall...First of all keep your pity, we don't want it or need it, just like we don't need your thanks or appreciation (though that is something we rarely get).
Gall....the gall is someone who uses dead uncles to make their point because they themselves have never had to stand on that line. Everyone "has" someone who has served or died, so what? Everyone has someone in their family who has done something, that sure as hell doesn't make them an expert. When I speak of honor, I speak of being able to hold our heads up, pay our bills and be able to look our children in the eye over moral issues. Irregardless of what George has done in the past, he IS improving the soldiers lot in life. He IS making OUR world a better place. He has already shown that we will not stand back and be played with. He has already started making changes to OUR quality of life through healthcare, pay and deployments (just to name a few). I don't KNOW if he will be a good president anymore than I KNEW Clinton would or wouldn't be. That will be proven over time. However I do KNOW that you don't have to FORCE soldiers to be available to greet him at the airport when he comes to the base. (which we had to do at Fort Benning three years ago when Clinton came for a visit). I DO know that recruitment has gone up since he got in office. I DO know that my husband nor I won't be spending 10 months out of the year in a foreign country. I DO know that when addressed by the Military he can talk about something other than "Don't ask, Don't tell"

Would we have gotten the same thing with Gore? Who knows, but the fact remains that OUR lives and the way WE are viewed is improving, which does result in increased PRIDE and HONOR.

I'm not placing him up there as our Poster Boy, because no ONE MAN, can EVER define WHO or WHAT we are. But I will give the man his due, OUR way of life is improving!!

Selfish? DAMNED RIGHT!! Just like those who benefited under Clinton supported him.

Clinton did good things for the country, but he FUCKED the military. Bush has been in office all of a whole month, I'm willing to stand behind him and give him an opportunity before I get on the typical "lynch the bastard" bandwagon.

As for the politics, someone will always hate whoever is in office and they will always have THEIR own reasons for doing so. Just as NO MAN who ever holds that office will ever be perfect...Hell...even JFK had his skeletons. If the election had gone the other way, people would be trashing Gore the same way they are trashing Bush.

American's love discord, strife, scandal and have the need for a whipping boy. Sadly, that is our way of life.

Mother always said,"If you want to start an arguement? Mention God, Politics or sports?

Hell...my first choice was McCain, and look how scared of him everyone was!


(damn where's the spell check when you need it)

 

[Purple Haze]

I can go on and on about the displeasure I have with the new president, I certainly won't change your mind. If you'd rather rush to the airport and salute this guy, good for you, a good soldier should.

It's unanimous, I think, military people hate Clinton. A lot of people hate Clinton, including Democrats and liberals, but it seems the military in particular have a vehement hatred for the guy, but I haven't really heard any specifics on why.

Is it the low pay, bad equipment, low morale? These were issues during the Reagan adminisration too, surprise, surprise. I served under Reagan and Reagan alone, so I really have nothing else to compare to.

I haven't been in the military for some time now, so I am really curious as to what it is about Clinton that has made the military such a bad place to be. Enlighten me. The rest of us need to know.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Re: I was going to walk away but....Fuck it

Originally posted by brazenblaze
First of all, "military grunts" know what they serve and don't ever have to be reminded of it by someone who couldn't, wouldn't or didn't serve.
Wouldn't in my case. And when you start speaking on behalf of an organization in which you are just a number as though your opinion was gospel, it might do you good to remember that those who wouldn't, couldn't, and didn't serve have every right to their opinion as you do. That's one of those little things you "protect" in the course of your duty.

The "I pay your salary you work for me" attitude you can shove up your ass.
Yeah...the truth does suck all to hell, doesn't it?

We serve a nation, an ideal and a way of life, we protect those who can't or won't protect themselves. We protect them, but we don't "work for them" or "serve" them. The country that we love and honor isn't based in any way, shape or form on the individuals who occupy it. It is based on the ideals that is was originally founded upon.
Boy, they got you good in boot camp, babe. In your heart maybe that is what you serve, but that's not the way it plays out. You serve a small group of politicians who decide what is and is not worth defending. You are a pawn of a superpower. That you do your duty well, or that you uphold purity in your heart is moot. Don't you think every SS agent thought in their hearts that they were acting on behalf of a greater cause?

Don't get me wrong, certainly you are no nazi. And I give you FULL CREDIT for the life you choose. It's a hard one. And, despite what you think, I have a great deal of respect for anyone who chooses the military, the same way I have respect for those who take on roles as police officers and other civil servants. But, the idea that because you participate in a group such as that gives you the right to speak on its behalf or tell others how to think about it is off the wall, babe. Be proud of what you do, sure. Be damn fucking proud. But don't kid yourself about the differences between the ideals you hold and the reality you're involved in.

Pity and Gall...First of all keep your pity, we don't want it or need it, just like we don't need your thanks or appreciation (though that is something we rarely get).
IMHO, it cheapens thanks and appreciation when it is expected or demanded. And, unfortunately, all too often most people who wear a uniform EXPECT far more than they deserve. And when you say "we" be clear. I pity you only because you admire GW. Not your unit or your organization. Just you and just on that issue.

Gall....the gall is someone who uses dead uncles to make their point because they themselves have never had to stand on that line.
Hey, babe...know what? My uncles HAD to stand on that line. YOU CHOSE to. And the line they held and wrote home about was a damn sight harder than yours. You signed on for it. I didn't have to use them to make my point. My point was fine on its own. What bothers you about that example is that it's accurate.

Everyone "has" someone who has served or died, so what? Everyone has someone in their family who has done something, that sure as hell doesn't make them an expert.
I never claimed to be an expert. I expressed my opinion.

When I speak of honor, I speak of being able to hold our heads up, pay our bills and be able to look our children in the eye over moral issues.
And you think you have more reason to hold up your head and look your children in the eye because GW is in office??? And, you know...while your touting those moral issues, make sure you remind the kids that you fought for them not only on the battle field, but you upheld such morals on a PORN site as well...

GW is making the military's lot in life better because he is being TOLD to. Because the bigwig Republicans get megabucks for commissioning special projects that don't have to have specific approval because they can slide under the heading of "national security." We're the only major superpower left and the cold war is over. Yes, we still need to maintain a defense, uphold a military, and pursue technology, but the concept that it is the most pressing issue of the day is pathetically short sighted. It’s not going to do us any good to have the big guns if our general population is too stupid to read the instructions.

Any soldiers who had to be forced to salute their CIC are prime examples of what shouldn't be in there. It doesn't matter if it's Clinton or GW. It's like a violin moaning about a person not being worthy enough to play it. An individual signs up for an amount of time to be an instrument of the government. They have rules and regulations they are instructed to adhere to because they chose to sign on for that role. If they still want to bitch and moan about being under appreciated and not liking their superiors, they can turn in their duds at the end of their service and rejoin the rest of us.

I'm not placing him up there as our Poster Boy, because no ONE MAN, can EVER define WHO or WHAT we are. But I will give the man his due, OUR way of life is improving!!

Selfish? DAMNED RIGHT!! Just like those who benefited under Clinton supported him.

So, all that high-horse stuff about serving a higher cause was a wash, huh?

Clinton did good things for the country, but he FUCKED the military.

No. He scaled down the military to accommodate the change in world events.

Hell...my first choice was McCain, and look how scared of him everyone was!
And it was a damn shame too, because even though I'm a Dem, I would have considered voting for McCain.

MP

 

[Oliver Clozoff]

Purple Haze,

I'm not a member of the military, nor have I ever been one (although I was offered a position with the rank of captain if in the Air Force if I'd sign on as a physician upon finishing medical school). However, I think I understand some of the fundamental issues involved in the military's intense dislike of Bill Clinton.

First, Clinton had a long history of strident opposition to U.S. involvement in the Vietnam war (as did a huge number of his contemporaries, including my parents). The military (or at least those who voluntarily served in Vietnam) bitterly resented those who opposed the war effort because they saw opposition to the war at home as being responsible for the rather half-hearted commitment US politicians made to the war effort. "If only the whole country would rally behind us," they thought, "we could win the war and come home heroes."

I don't think military people begrudge Clinton or anyone else a philosophical opposition to the war, but I think they perceive his public protests in foreign countries as over and beyond the pale of acceptable conscientious protest.

Second, I believe that anyone who makes the military their career will be understandably upset at any President responsible for a large-scale dismantling of the military. This is not to say that decreasing the size of the military was wrong. I have many criticisms of Bill Clinton, but I agree with his initiatives to diminish our military. After all, he was the first President elected after the end of the Cold War, and without a monolithic enemy in the Soviet Union to oppose, the size of our military was unnecessarily huge. Still, I can understand the feelings of the country's men and women in uniform who had taken great pride in being part of the world's greatest fighting force and who regarded the cutbacks as an emasculation of the military.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, it should be remembered that the military is founded on a core set of values: discipline, duty, personal responsibility, honor. All these are mentioned over and over by the military people who post here and although they may seem cliche and a bit mystifying to those of us who have never served, they carry an unspeakably great power with those who have. They are truly the rock foundation and girders upon which military capability is based.

To military people, their commander-in-chief should be an exemplification of these values, but Bill Clinton seems to be the their very apotheosis. He's dishonest. He's admitted to lying to the American people and to a Federal Grand Jury. He's duplicitous. His word means little because he's willing to say whatever he thinks his listeners want to hear and then he's quick to break his promises. And he's corrupt. These pardons we're learning about now are inexcusable and while I give credit to GWB for wanting to move on, I believe Clinton should be made accountable for his venality.

GWB is by no means perfect in the regards mentioned above. But his father was well-loved by the military and American people tend to give their leaders the benefit of the doubt (as evidenced by our long patience with Clinton). Bush has not always acted responsibly in his own life, but unlike Clinton he has accepted responsibility for his behavior and has changed it.

The American military (and the general public as well) don't require perfection, but they require an honest effort.

[Edited by Oliver Clozoff on 02-25-2001 at 10:05 AM]

 

[Comshaw]

Brazenblaze in A post:
"Dems aren't perfect...Reps aren't perfect, but I'm damned glad that George is up there in office to bring a little honor back to the Military and to help whip away some of our shame over our leaders. An accent doesn't make a man, and neither does two months in an office make a President."
____________________________________________________________

There isn't much, if any difference between a Dem and a Rep, they both are going to do exactly what is good for them and nothing else. All we can hope is that they do a little for the country while they are fill their pockets.
You really believe that GB will bring honor back to the military? Someone who could have proven how much honor he had be either going to war, or standing up and declaring it was wrong. Instead he talks daddy into buying his way into the National Guard. Now Harold before you go off on me, there were 2,711,284 military personnel that served in the War theater, only 9400 were National Guard. Those are pretty good odds. At the time, being an NG wasn't a guarantee you wouldn't go to 'nam, but it was as close as you can get while appearing, for later years, to be doing your duty to your country. I have a lot more respect for those that stood up and declared that it was wrong and they wouldn't go. At least they had the honor and integrity to stand up for their beliefs, rather then use names and money to appear honorable. Besides, honor can't be lost if you make it a part of your soul. Real honor doesn't come from someone making my lot better, it doesn't come from someone telling me I have honor, it comes from within and is all ways there, ALLWAYS.
____________________________________________________________

Another post by Brazinblaze:
"If you don't wear the boots, then you don't have a clue about the life and what it and its honor is all about."
____________________________________________________________

In other words, if we've never been there, shut the fuck up?
Well lets see if I'm qualified to talk on this subject;
11 months 15 days in 'nam,
7 months in Letterman Hospital Persidio San Francisco,
6 years total time in service US Army,
5 years total time in service Washington State Army National Guard.
I think it can safely be said I have the right to talk here.
____________________________________________________________

The military is a bloated government institution that should be trimmed to half what it is. We don't need the out sized military man power we have. We have enough firepower to kill every living thing on this planet 4 times over. How much more do we need? Time to weed out the mercenaries and get back to a core fighting force. For my money we should re-institute the draft. Let the general populous defend what belongs to them.
By the way, I would have voted for McCain. I didn't agree with him on a few points, but he is a man with honor, a lot of it.

Comshaw

 

[KillerMuffin]

I was going to walk away too but....Fuck it

linton did good things for the country, but he FUCKED the military.

No. He scaled down the military to accommodate the change in world events.

MP
[/B]

No, MP, Clinton FUCKED the military. And he FUCKED the US when he did it. You obviously have no real concept of what it is like in the military or having to do the job the military job is. Get your panties unbunched babe, you won't serve, currently a choice that you have (notice the word currently?), how the hell do you even know what it's like?

I wasn't even going to get into this, but I don't think you have the faintest concept how the military is supposed to serve you, let alone how they currently serve you. What is their job? Their primary mission is to protect the US from foreign aggressions. What, exactly, does this mean? It means we maintain an Army in a state of readiness incase we or our allies are attacked. It means we use that Army to protect our civilian interests in areas. Didn't know that was the job of the military since the day we started this country? It means we maintiain a Navy in a state of readiness in case we or our allies are attacked. The Navy's secondary job is to ensure that shipping lanes for our merchant marine and our civilian interests are kept open and peaceful.

The US Military is NOT in a state of Military Readiness. The US Army has reduced the foreign deployment length to 4 months. You can only be deployed for a 4 month time frame or they have to pay you for it. Why? Because they keep sending people on deployments and giving them no time to rest and train. They lack the manpower for it. They lack the equipment for it. The lack the funding for it. The US Navy has had to cancel orders for new ships, subs, boats, and planes. Why? Can't even afford to repair the ones we have, let alone replace them at the rate they're needed. Yes, MP, we need them. There are still pirates out there and in some places the only thing keeping the shipping lanes open is the US Navy's presence.

Let's talk about manning. Manpower is the number of soldiers, sailors, marines, and airmen who are on active duty. There are two things that are of primce concern in this regard, recruiting and attrition. The manning of the US military cannot keep up with the amount of units required. We cannot recruit enough people to make up for the attrition. More people are leaving than are coming in. They come, they see, they leave for better jobs in the civilian sector. So what? What the fuck do you care? Well, next time these soldiers go on deployment they have to the jobs that they have to do as well as the jobs that other had traditionally done, because they left.

You aren't going to join up, chances are no one you know will ever join up voluntarily. If we keep seeing these nasty recruiting numbers, well, then they'll introduce a legislation to restart the Draft again. Ohmigod. Yes, part of your duties as a citizen of the US is to protect it. As a citizen you are a part of the citizen militia and it's your job to protect the US if we're ever invaded. No, not by marching off to war or anything. Your job as a citizen is to do what you can if the invaders ever get to where you are. That probably means a strategic retreat or making sure they can't get to the good food and water. Anyway, a corollary to being a citizen is that if you are called upon to serve, you do it. That means the Draft. A measure to restart the Draft was brought before the congress in 1998 and 1999. Haven't read the Times recently, probably in 2000 as well, and probably this year. That doesn't mean they'll start drafting people right off the bat, that means they have the option to start drafting people.

So, in essence, when Clinton FUCKED the military he dodged, he FUCKED the US. The US is FUCKED because it isn't as protected by the military that's supposed to be so great.

Anyway, hadn't heard this about desertion on Dubya's part. But a deserter is better than a traitor, neh? Still can't believe they made the Great Bitch, Fonda one of the women of the century.

I don't know politics, I don't care to debate with Democrats cause they never agree with me, but I do know the military, and I do know that those of you who haven't been in the military really need to shut up about how they think Clinton didn't FUCK the military.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Oh Dr. Ollie...do you have ANY idea how much I miss you when you're gone? Despite the fact that you are never on my side of an issue, you never fail to contribute to any discussion ;-)

A couple things...

I think you are probably right about the reason the military didn't like Clinton. It is similar to the guy walking into a factory and showing the newest contraption that will make hard labor obsolete. The reaction is "Hey! That's MY JOB" and not, "Wow...look at what technology has done." We needed to scale down our military. They weren't going to be thrilled about it. I don't think his part politics had much to do with it, though, except to stir up general unrest.

Yes, the military is founded on a core set of values, but what never ceases to strike me is how people who wear a uniform tend to think they have exclusive rights to those values. Like Comshaw says, honor is honor and it is ALWAYS there. Maybe I don't pick up a gun and defend my country, but if I volunteer for the Red Cross, is my honor less? Maybe I don't wear a police uniform and patrol my block, but I abide by laws. Is my honor less? No. Honor and other ideals are not cliché, but people who tout them can make it seem so. I don't think the military is always based upon these values. I think several of our military actions of the past prove this. These ideals are what the powers that be use to keep the ants in line. It's a hard, unfair fact.

MOST politicians are dishonest. MOST of them serve their own causes. I don’t get why everyone is so shocked that Clinton was just more of the same. Our expectations as a nation have gotten so low that we're beginning to start standing behind whichever worm slithers least. Sure, I think Clinton should be held accountable. I was satisfied with his actions as a president (not thrilled, mind you), but I don't think that makes him exempt from accountability. What gets me is all this "outrage" about it, as though Republicans are shocked out of their britches by his lying when Reagan and Bush #1 did pretty much the same type of crap. Sure, hold Clinton accountable all you want, but don't act like this is a Democrat issue, and don't act like it is something NEW to US politics. Mechanic was one of those last-minute pardons, BTW, so I guess I was just happy that one act of justice got shuffled in with the rest of the underhanded crap.

Bush #2 hasn't accepted responsibility. He's smugly gotten AWAY with his past and he panders to the notions that he deserves any of the respect he has. Like Regan, he's nothing more than a figurehead. There was a comedian who joked about Regan, who said "Blaming Reagan for anything that happened during his administration is like blaming Ronald McDonald for the fact that you didn't like your cheeseburger." It's going to be a long 4 years.

You say: The American military (and the general public as well) don't require perfection, but they require an honest effort.

I don't think this is exactly right. I think they require the public DISPLAY of one.

We'd get better people for public office if we were willing to admit our leaders were allowed to be fallible. It’s the ridiculous expectation of “perfection” which keeps us getting these asses. Many good people with genuine regrets in their past know they'll never hold up to public scrutiny, so we get to choose from the ones who were able to connive enough to keep it silent long enough to get elected.

You know why Bush got on the ticket over McCain? Because he was better qualified? Because he was a better candidate? Hell no. Because more Republicans would rather see ANY of their candidates in office - even a pathetic puppet - than have another Dem in office. Dems are no better, mind you. I'm just saying, this “GW was voted in on the basis of his personal integrity” jive is horseshit.

MP

 

[brazenblaze]

Oliver Clozoff & Killermuffin

Thank you!

You have said what I was trying to say in a much better way than I said it. I guess I because I'm NOT a writer and because I'm currently living the life, made it hard for me to put the feelings into words.

Both of you did a much better job at making my point.
Thanks

(((Oliver & Killermuffin)))
*I can do that, I'm not in uniform right now* lol

 

[Madame Pandora]

KM -

When the violin starts thinking that it writes the music, there's really no winning.

This whole concept of "you have to be part of it to understand it" is bullshit, but it's a circular argument. It’s something big fish tell the little fish in boot camp to pump up their egos and make them feel superior – because a great part of the military mindset is the notion that you are “better” than others. Maybe that’s necessary for the role they play, but doesn’t make it any less a load.

The minute consideration of the draft getting reinstated falls under discussion, then this country takes another step toward defying the ideals it's based upon and repeating the mistakes of our past. And it’s an alarmist’s argument, btw.

You want someone to agree with you because you walk a line? Tough shit. It doesn't work that way. Your opinion stays just your opinion the same way mine stays mine. But don't tell me how educated I am on an issue. You have no concept of what I do or do not know. You don’t know my past experiences, you don’t know what people I do and do not know. Don’t personalize me in your justification of an issue. I know exactly how the military is supposed to serve it's nation. Do you?

You think ONE MAN in office fucked the military? Fine. enjoy that delusion all you want. Far be it from me to take away the security blanket of falsehood from you.

The truth, which has the military shaking, is that overall, the mindset of Americans is a little more enlightened than it was during the cold war. We're starting to see that there are enough bad guys at home - we really don't need to go looking for them. And the "bad guys" all that time ago turned out to be just people, too.

So, we are a little more reluctant to take up arms against other cultures. Go figure.

Oh, and what about the “bad guys” who really are still out there? We’re not going to stop them no matter how much we try. Sure, it’s nice posturing to keep ready, but we’re not talking about a strong nation out there keeping up with us or acting reasonable. The “bad guys” out there are have been living off the scraps of superpowers for so long mostly their goals are just to grab as much as they can and fuck tomorrow. Negotiations and summits are a game they play to bide time.

As it has been said, we have enough firepower to blow up the world 100 times over. Our "state of readiness" and our arsenals don't need to be WHAT THEY WERE.

We’re facing people who live in 3rd world countries who have been bowing to the superpowers for so long they have nothing but hatred toward us. Cultures whose leaders spoon-feed their populace the notions that violence can equal acting on the behalf of their god. Closer to home we face teenagers getting their hands on machine guns and bombs and blowing away their peers.

And eventually, these people, who center their focus on one thing and ONE THING ONLY WILL do damage. The best we can do is try to limit it. But it's a given, no matter how hard we prepare.

The military is FUCKED because our country is FUCKED, babe. Because our kids are undereducated, our general population is overworked and disillusioned. Because we’ve been conditioned to play “good guy / bad guy” for so long we don’t remember that the other side in any discussion has a reason for their beliefs too.

I have no problem with the military. I support them. But I don’t kid myself for what they are. And I don’t think GW is what the military needs. He’s ignorance putting another band-aid on gushing wounds, but that’s no big deal because most of the victims are too brainwashed to realize they’re bleeding.

You want him? You got him. Enjoy.

MP