Affirmative Action

[Marxist]

I love it when I see employment oppurtunities advertised for my local BigTen school, hell any government/ education job. The ads read Minoritys / women / disabled encouraged to apply. what that means to me is the white males are not welcome. All people should be encouraged to apply.

No, what it means is that they're 99% full of White men.

Listen, I'm sick of hearing about how it sucks to be a White guy in a nation run by White guys. It's a stupid argument. We've never elected anyone but White men for president. We've never had anything but White men sit at the head of the Supreme Court. Almost all the major corporations are run by White men.

To say that White guys don't have a chance for self-improvement equal or better than those that have "programs" is ludicrous.

Angry White guy, get over it.

 

[Hamletmaschine]

I'm a materialist. In the final analysis, it's always about money, no matter what people say in surveys.

 

[bored1]

No, what it means is that they're 99% full of White men.

Listen, I'm sick of hearing about how it sucks to be a White guy in a nation run by White guys. It's a stupid argument. We've never elected anyone but White men for president. We've never had anything but White men sit at the head of the Supreme Court. Almost all the major corporations are run by White men.

To say that White guys don't have a chance for self-improvement equal or better than those that have "programs" is ludicrous.

Angry White guy, get over it.

I just pointed out a fact........... How university and government jobs are advertised.

 

[Ishmael]

I'm a materialist. In the final analysis, it's always about money, no matter what people say in surveys.

There are some like that, but you can't attribute it to everyone.

Ishmael

 

[EthiopianPrince]

I think there's something wrong if you start more affirmative action than sex-related threads on literotica.com

 

[KillerMuffin]

I think current AA code is anachronistic. We don't have nearly the problem with racism that we had when it was needed as it's written. Moreover the minority has learned that generally one can sue without getting shot over it.

Affirmative Action is not fair. It never has been and it never will be. It's not affirmative because by its very nature it encourages discriminatory practices. The intentions are good and when it was created discriminatory practices were needed.

I don't think it should be removed altogether, but it needs to be rewritten to bring itself more in line with equal opportunity. Fixing a discrimination problem with another discrimination problem isn't fixing anything, it's just creating more problems.

The main problem with AA is that it's a governmental solution to a social problem. It's one of those social problems that goes deeper than just making sure minorities are also hired. The problem is the number of qualified people.

I walk through my campus, when school was in, and looked at the faces. There were few blacks, few hispanics, few native americans, lots of whites, asians, and indians. That tells me that it's not discrimination that's the problem.

There are a handful of non-athletic scholarship blacks in my school of 22,000 undergrads. Why is that? Money? Poor white folks comprise the majority of student body. Poor white people putting themselves through college with student loans, scrabbled small scholarships, and jobs. This isn't the obstacle, though some make it to be.

I think the problem with discrimination is all attitude. Not just in the part of the employers/educational institutions. The problem is in the mindset of the minority as well. Those that I were exposed to in high school didn't count college as an option. They didn't concentrate on schoolwork enough to qualify for college becuase they believed they'd never get there. The only way out was through athletics.

Affirmative action is a bandaid on the dam. The real problem is within the minority communities who believe that there is no way out. Does The Man hold them down? Sometimes, but not nearly as often as they claim. No one will help them, no one will give them a break, no one cares. That's the story of my life, too. The myth of white man's privilege only hangs true at upper echelons.

Going to college and getting the qualifications to compete for the good jobs on a level playing field is the problem these days, not levelling the playing field. There are some places where AA is needed. There are a lot more where it's not.

 

[Sir Alex 4 U]

I think current AA code is anachronistic. We don't have nearly the problem with racism that we had when it was needed as it's written. Moreover the minority has learned that generally one can sue without getting shot over it....

This is a complete and accurate description of how I, and all my poor friends, white and nonwhite, felt when we were contemplating college.

True, the "Upper Echelon" of society is still predominately white, but that doesn't mean ANY white male or female is allowed in. Social class discrimination hasn't changed, but it is now a lot more color blind. But being born poor is still the largest detriment to reaching the highest rungs of political or business society.

Just my two cents.

 

[miles]

AA in and of itself is the essence of prejudice and discrimination.

While the intent is to "level the playing field," I have to wonder about a policy which presumes minorities need the help of government to succeed. What a fucking insult!

 

[Private Vasquez]

http://aad.english.ucsb.edu/

 

[MechaBlade]

I just pointed out a fact........... How university and government jobs are advertised.

I see what you mean. But sometimes being of the non-dominant gender or race can allow for different viewpoints. Maybe it doesn't matter for jobs like math professor.

I'm not sure where I stand on AA for jobs. I know it is needed at universities.

 

[Ishmael]

I see what you mean. But sometimes being of the non-dominant gender or race can allow for different viewpoints. Maybe it doesn't matter for jobs like math professor.

I'm not sure where I stand on AA for jobs. I know it is needed at universities.

Diversity in the name of education is bullshit Blade.

Accomplishments and knowledge are all that's required. A "Black History" professor doesn't have to be black. Just as a professor of Roman Antiquities doesn't have to be a white Italian.

Relaxing the standard so as to accomodate diversity is, in fact, cheating the student of the quality of their education that they are paying so dearly for.

Ishmael

 

[Private Vasquez]

Relaxing the standard so as to accomodate diversity is, in fact, cheating the student of the quality of their education that they are paying so dearly for.

Affirmative Action changes the quality of education?

 

[Ishmael]

Affirmative Action changes the quality of education?

It most certainly can. Go back and read the whole series of posts.

Ishmael

 

[Laurel]

No, what it means is that they're 99% full of White men.

Listen, I'm sick of hearing about how it sucks to be a White guy in a nation run by White guys. It's a stupid argument. We've never elected anyone but White men for president. We've never had anything but White men sit at the head of the Supreme Court. Almost all the major corporations are run by White men.

To say that White guys don't have a chance for self-improvement equal or better than those that have "programs" is ludicrous.

Angry White guy, get over it.

*standing ovation*

 

[Blues]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

The worst part of AA is the effect on the beneficiary. They will never know if they were hired and promoted because of merit, or because some nebulous number had to be met and they got lucky. It robs them of their dignity and the satisfaction that comes with knowing you deserved your position. They are robbed of the respect of their co-workers because there is always the thought in the back of their mind that you are only there to meet a quota. They are denied credibility.

It's a cruel reward indeed.

Ishmael

Well stated indeed.

Any system that rewards based on race or sex is flawed and doomed for failure.

All I can say is that if my life depended on it (and most AA cases involve civil service positions) I want the best qualified canidate available to be the one that responds to the situation. I think everyone should achieve to thier own potential, but not at the expense of someone else who is more deserving(qualified).

 

[Private Vasquez]

Professors don't change the curriculum because someone who was admitted via Affirmative Action is in their class. Tests and assignments don't get dumbed down because this program is in place. Maybe I take your statement too literally.

 

[naudiz]

This is a tricky issue. Now that I've stated the obvious, onto the feature program!

Discrimination is discrimination. It's ugly, and it hurts both the discriminator and the discriminatee. Fighting fire with fire only makes a bigger fire. To that end, I think AA as a long-term solution is problematic. The only way our society is going to be truly free from the ugliness of racism is for us to distance ourselves from it entirely: mentally, emotionally, socially, politically, culturally and economically. As long as it is a part of our system, no matter what the intentions, it's going to haunt us.

However, to yank AA entirely at this point would be problematic, too. Without even getting a chance to prove yourself, how can you, well, prove yourself? Things are better now then they were before, perhaps. They're still not good enough, though. I lost my idealism that the system works and that racism is a thing of the past when a company I worked for got sued, in part, for its higher-ups telling HR not to hire any more black people or women. Oh, the quota's full? White men only, please.

It's bullshit. It's fucking bullshit and it bugs me.

I think there are a lot of us here who would say that if we were in charge we would hire solely on the basis of qualifications and that race, gender, orientation, and religion would have nothing to do with our hiring criteria. Guess what? We're not in charge. The people who are in charge get there because they're willing to screw over whoever they have to, and then they drag their buddies up out of the muck with them. The old boy network is alive and well in 2002. Anyone who doesn't see it is a lot more idealistic than I am.

The benefit I see to AA is that it gives people a chance they otherwise might not have. It gives them a chance to show those people who are doing the hiring that they can do the job. It shows society that we can work together, and if we can work together, we can live together. It gives people a chance to prove those racial stereotypes wrong. In theory. Unfortunately, in order to present that chance, the same racism that is keeping our society divided is reinforced.

Do you see what I mean when I say this is tricky? I don't have an answer. I have a lot of aspirations, but no clear path on how to get there from here. I would like to see, in my lifetime, a day when anyone can truly believe that the beauty and brilliance of the human mind exists independant of skin color, gender, and orientation. That you don't have to be a star athelete, a iron-fisted man-hater (or spineless flower), or a finger-snapping flamer to be someone. It saddens me to see that minority groups often reinforce their own stereotypes in ways that alienate those who don't want to be part of those stereotypes. It's one thing when people on the ouside are saying you've got to be a certain way or you have no value. When people on the inside are saying the same thing, it's lonely and it sucks. At what point does individuality have to give way to 'conform or die?'

<tangent>

Case in point: I have a gay friend (no, really, me?) who is a wonderful guy. He's not my friend because he's gay. He's my friend because he's witty, intelligent, thoughtful, interesting, and compassionate. He just happens to like cock, and hey, that's one more thing we have in common. He doesn't lisp. He doesn't call anyone 'girlfriend,' and he thinks drag looks ridiculous. He's not trying to compensate. That's really how he is. He also often says he feels utterly isolated, because his own friends in the gay community won't accept him for who he is. He acts 'too straight' apparently. Stereotypes enforced from within hurt more than stereotypes assumed from without.

</tangent>

What does this have to do with AA and hiring practices? Nothing. It's a tangent. Actually, that's not true. What it has to do with AA and hiring practices is this: racism and the damage it does is still a major problem in our society, and it's coming from both within and without. Like KillerMuffin said, AA is a band-aid over a dam.

Anyway. I have a lot of opinions on the matter but no working solution. Until I have one, I'd rather see something in place than nothing. I do, however, firmly believe that we as a society need to find a better solution, and the sooner the better.

Okay, I have one solution, but I can only apply it to myself: I will pour my energy, my soul, and my life into seeing people for who they truly are on the inside regardless of the packaging on the outside, and I will encourage everyone I come into contact with to do the same. It's not going to solve the problem, maybe, but it sure as hell isn't going to contribute to it.

 

[Ishmael]

No, what it means is that they're 99% full of White men.

Listen, I'm sick of hearing about how it sucks to be a White guy in a nation run by White guys. It's a stupid argument. We've never elected anyone but White men for president. We've never had anything but White men sit at the head of the Supreme Court. Almost all the major corporations are run by White men.

To say that White guys don't have a chance for self-improvement equal or better than those that have "programs" is ludicrous.

Angry White guy, get over it.

And the fact of the matter is that AA will NOT get a female, or black, or any other ethnicity appointed to head a major corporation, to be Chief Justice, or any other major position within meritocracies. Nor should it. So why should this contradiction of reality be imposed on the lesser among us?

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Professors don't change the curriculum because someone who was admitted via Affirmative Action is in their class. Tests and assignments don't get dumbed down because this program is in place. Maybe I take your statement too literally.

You missed it PV. The issue was hiring practices, not admitance. So the issue was the professor's, not the students.

Although I am against the use of AA in admitance and scholoarships if public funds are used. I sincerely believe that a student that won the position on merit is justifiably proud.

Ishmael

 

[huskie]

Unclear?

What is AA..????... All it says to me is "If someone (in a minority group ONLY) can't a possition, then we should GIVE it to them anyway."


huskie

 

[MechaBlade]

Diversity in the name of education is bullshit Blade.

Accomplishments and knowledge are all that's required. A "Black History" professor doesn't have to be black. Just as a professor of Roman Antiquities doesn't have to be a white Italian.

Relaxing the standard so as to accomodate diversity is, in fact, cheating the student of the quality of their education that they are paying so dearly for.

Ishmael

I don't know. A Black History professor that was actually Black could contribute to the history lesson with personal experiences from the 60's. Also, Affirmative Action doesn't have to be about relaxing the standard. If you have two equally qualified professors, AA says the non-white male one should be picked. Also I find that many "qualified" professors at my "prestigious" college actually suck.

But once again, this is using Affirmative Action in hiring practices, which I have not formed a definite opinion on yet.

 

[Private Vasquez]

Admittance is something that is close to me, so that's immediately where my mind went on the subject. Hiring practices are not something I know much of anything about. Because someone is allowed to get their foot in the door, doesn't mean they don't know how to do the job.

 

[Ishmael]

I don't know. A Black History professor that was actually Black could contribute to the history lesson with personal experiences from the 60's. Also, Affirmative Action doesn't have to be about relaxing the standard. If you have two equally qualified professors, AA says the non-white male one should be picked. Also I find that many "qualified" professors at my "prestigious" college actually suck.

But once again, this is using Affirmative Action in hiring practices, which I have not formed a definite opinion on yet.

And I submit to you that a Black History professor could invite any black that lived through the civil rights movement into the classroom to relate personal experiences.

The issue is whether you want to pay for personal experiences or an education?

Ishmael

 

[KillerMuffin]

Interesting related article:

From Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml?type=worldnews&StoryID=979371

Britain's Race Body to Help Disaffected Whites

By Jeremy Lovell

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain's Commission for Racial Equality, charged with fighting bias against ethnic minorities, is ready to take in disenfranchised whites as the resurgence of the far right sends political tremors across Europe.

"Unless society begins to tackle the problems of young, disaffected white men, we will not reduce race violence," CRE Chairman Gurbux Singh told Saturday's Daily Telegraph newspaper.

"I believe that if we are to create social cohesion, we have to be concerned about all communities," he added.

His remarks showed how conditions have changed since the Commission was created, at a time when racial discrimination was seen as bias purely by whites against ethnic minorities during Britain's absorption of immigrants from former colonies. "The Commission is shifting and repositioning itself," Singh said.

The far-right British National Party won three seats in local council elections in the central city of Burnley last month -- scene of race riots which struck several cities in the region less than a year ago.

That the white supremacist party won its first ever seats in local government shocked a political mainstream already reeling from the large minority vote for right-wing extremist Jean-Marie Le Pen in France's presidential elections.

A further shock this week was the huge vote in the Dutch elections that thrust the anti-immigration party of slain right-winger Pim Fortuyn from nowhere to second place and a probable role in government in that normally liberal country.

"There are some deep divisions in our communities, often fueled not just by race but by poverty, poor housing, poor education, no employment opportunities, by people feeling that the existing political system is not seriously responding to their need," Singh said.

"Some communities, white as well as Asian and black, are inward-looking and insular. They need to change. They need to open up and become part of the wider community," he added.

 

[Laurel]

Interesting article. Seems like the same arguments for preferential treatment are made to 'help' disenfranchised minorities are being used in that article for preferential treatment are to 'help' disenfranchised Whites. If AA is the big sham/fraud/failure that so many believe it to be, how could they support the same rationale to help 'disenfranchised' Whites? Makes no sense.

BTW, from my rather limited experience in Europe, I can say that I saw more racism against people of color - especially Moroccans, who nearly every Brit I met made racial slurs against - than I ever did against Caucasians. In fact, I have an American friend of Arab descent who met with fierce hostility from strangers while traveling in Europe - especially Germans - who mistook him for a Moroccan. The idea that things are so turned that Caucasians are not the "poor oppressed folk" is contrary to the reality of a world where the vast majority of wealth is in White hands and the vast majority of the poverty-stricken folk are brown-skinned.