"against our will, comes wisdom..."

[mcopado]

Here's some quotes that always help me:

The Lord will never give you more than you and He can handle.

I really like the adding of the and HE (or God/she/spirit, whatever name you use) I'm going to start using that instead of the "more than we can handle" meanins us singular...

 

[intothewoods]

There is wisdom in logic and reason. In learning about cause and effect.

Whether the suffering was caused by one's own behavior or the behavior of others, if there is a rational basis for understanding what happened, and why, then wisdom may be gleaned from the experience.

But there is no wisdom to be found in the random, the senseless, the unforeseen and unforeseeable. By definition, such events occur without reason or pattern. One can not become wise from such things. One can only endure.

This really resonates for me. Right now, my marriage is ending. I know I will go on, and eventually learn many lessons. But losing my mom to cancer? Of course it changed me. And yes, I endured. But I would give back any "lessons" I learned in a heartbeat to have my mother alive.

 

[JMohegan]

I sure do understand this - and I suppose for me, if I have any wisdom at all it could very well be called "resignation to the ultimate nature of life"

As to "understanding of the point or purpose of that nature" I have no frickin clue - in fact I have given up searching for that answer.

Ah, then any difference of perspective on your initial question seems to be largely a semantic one, as to the meaning of "wisdom".

"Grace" - well, I do not buy the concept at all. All definitions I have found for "grace" go something like this "an undeserved gift (or blessing) given by the Divine (or God) necessary for your salvation". The "undeserved" part is the troubling part for me. So the next question for me is - if grace is an "undeserved gift" what do we call an "undeserved punishment (pain)". To date I have not found that word - so that means that we do not deserve the good things that come to us, but we do deserve the poop that comes our way - the Catholics called this the results of original sin - that is, the sin of just being born. I don't buy it at all.

I don't buy that (or a great many other things expounded by organized religions) either.

"Hope" - my definition is a little on the dark side - Hope is an act of desperation by someone unable to deal with the circumstances of the present time and place. I use "potential" as my uplifting word once I do indeed see potential.

Tis a bit dark for some.

That is dark, yes.

I would agree with you when it comes to blind hope, or hope without foundation or reasonable basis.

However, a wise man once told me that hope borne of experience and rational judgment is the impetus that compels us to take the first step in anything we try to do. That makes sense to me. This type of hope would be synonymous with potential, no doubt. So once again, Shank, it seems that we agree.

 

[nh23]

This really resonates for me. Right now, my marriage is ending. I know I will go on, and eventually learn many lessons. But losing my mom to cancer? Of course it changed me. And yes, I endured. But I would give back any "lessons" I learned in a heartbeat to have my mother alive.

Hugs

 

[JMohegan]

So anyway, since bad things happen, it really is OK, because God is present in those bad things to guide us through...to help us find grace in the smallest things, to help us overcome tragedy, and to remind us that that current bad thing, no-matter how insurmountable it may seem, is but a single chapter in the epic story of our lives, and that God is love.

I appreciate your attempt to comfort, and do not mean to offend with what I am about to say. I respect your right to whatever faith you embrace.

But faith is not the same as wisdom. It is a product of imagination or collective fantasy. A comforting assumption or guess. Not fact.

 

[intothewoods]

Hugs

Thanks. Sadly, this thread is certainly timely for me.

 

[JMohegan]

This really resonates for me. Right now, my marriage is ending. I know I will go on, and eventually learn many lessons. But losing my mom to cancer? Of course it changed me. And yes, I endured. But I would give back any "lessons" I learned in a heartbeat to have my mother alive.

Yes, I understand.

The type and timing of tragedy experienced has a very strong impact on one's response to this topic, no doubt.

 

[intothewoods]

"Bad" things happen in this world because we live in a place where entropy exists, systems break down, people die, we get in car accidents, get our hearts broken, planes crash into buildings, tsunami's wipe out entire populations in an instant...Why? I dunno, maybe God created it this way to see how we'd react, or maybe for some other unfathomable plan...(I tend to think it is because this planet is our "school". The planet we live on doesn't really care whether we're a saint or a serial killer, eventually we die...(God doesn't really care if were a saint or a serial killer either GOD is love and loves and forgives us all equually when the time comes anyway)

Ah, I missed your post the first time around, but found it after JMohegan quoted you.

I don't think any religion has a good answer to the question why do bad things happen to good people? And you yourself say "I dunno, maybe God created it this way to see how we'd react." Huh?

Why would God want good people to suffer? It has never made sense to me. My mother was a good person, who did a lot of good for so many people. It made no sense to take her from this world. And that's all I know for sure.

I don't know if there is a God. In many ways, I am deeply spiritual. It's my culture. It's who I am. At this point, I just accept there are questions I have that won't be answered. I can accept that, but I can't accept the human explanations for why bad things happen to good people.

 

[intothewoods]

Yes, I understand.

The type and timing of tragedy experienced has a very strong impact on one's response to this topic, no doubt.

Yes, no doubt.

 

[Toa_lin]

"...and if tragedy has been as bedded with thee since thine youngest year of five, as your wife should'st be, then the world appeareth as a darker place, and all shall be shunned, for in thine eyes, thou art been shunned from thine birth, and clear to ye is it that always shall the light fade into darkness.. But hold fast ye shipwreked wretches, ye heart-broken lovers, for all things are circular in this world, and as thus shalt the light fade unto darkness, then the dark must invariably fade unto the light. So arise ye fallen fighters, and muted speakers, ye beggered vagabonds and pitted pipers, embark apon a new fight apon a new night, for this time, ye shall prevail" `-~Me in one of my poems~-`


Put simply, wisdom is not derived from experience, wisdom is derived from one's choice to accept or deny each new phase in life.

If you've met with the word of tragedy so often it seems impossible to take another step forward, then welcome to my life as of 6 months ago... If you suddenly find yourself taking a step forward that turns out to be an escalator step that pulls you towards the top much quicker, then you are like me now, and have found your way again.

 

[Toa_lin]

Here's some quotes that always help me:

The Lord will never give you more than you and He can handle.

Blessed are they that morn, for they shall be comforted.

sry grace, I know what your saying, but these are of little help to an aethiest like myself, but I'm glad you've found things that help you cope. I think I'll stick to my blank-verse poetry lol

 

[poppy1963]

I do truly think we put way too much "faith" or "belief" in "this world"...it is but a blip on the head of a pin that we spend here....at least in the life we live now...there is so much beyond the mundanity we're mired in here....if one just peeks at the world of physics or has some kind of awareness of mathematical theorums or just looks at the sky or a tulip or into the eyes of an orangutan or a snow leopard or a puppy or a gold fish...there's no denying the magick beyond our daily focus.

wow...WOW! The magick presents itself to us each and every day...and we look past it to the crack in the wall...why?

 

[graceanne]

sry grace, I know what your saying, but these are of little help to an aethiest like myself, but I'm glad you've found things that help you cope. I think I'll stick to my blank-verse poetry lol

Well, I wish I had a quote that's helpful to everyone, but I can only go with what works for me.

 

[FurryFury]

I don't subscribe the the idea that God doesn't give us more than we can handle or indeed that God exists and gives a damn at all.

Plenty of people are given more than they can handle. The mental breakdowns and suicide rates show that, IMO.

I don't believe that wisdom only comes through pain though I do see a terrible beauty in the first post quote that you posted Shank.

I do believe that yes, Grace you've won! Damned right you have!

I do agree that if we survive something that's terrible or difficult intact and can still enjoy life we tend to be stronger than if we'd never faced such horrible things but fuck if I'm glad to face those obstacles or see my children do so!

I do not believe that everything happens for a reason. As if there is this wonderful cosmic plan but we are just too damn stupid to understand it.

I call bullshit on that.

Some things happen for no reason at all.

Some things suck for no reason.

But the reverse is also true. If you look hard enough you can find good things in every day and every life.

This shit is only my opinion and like ass holes we all have one. My thoughts are not meant in any way to argue against anyone else's or invalidate them. I'm cool with people not all believing the same stuff.

Fury

 

[Shankara20]

This shit is only my opinion and like ass holes we all have one. My thoughts are not meant in any way to argue against anyone else's or invalidate them. I'm cool with people not all believing the same stuff.

Fury

it appears you and I are ass holes of the same sort

 

[FurryFury]

it appears you and I are ass holes of the same sort

Sweet!

If you poke something into mine . . .

I'll poke something into yours!



Fury

 

[Toa_lin]

Well, I wish I had a quote that's helpful to everyone, but I can only go with what works for me.

Hehe, i understand grace, and never once said you shouldn't. if everyone speaks there mind openly, and everyone listens to everyone else, you find that there may be arguments, but they tend to last much shorter then most, and come out to much more reasonable of a conclusion.

 

[Toa_lin]

it appears you and I are ass holes of the same sort

make that three, but I have a tendacny to do teh poking instead of getting poked (being the sadist Dom and all)

 

[neonflux]

This is a remarkable quote - I'd never read it before and it touches me deep in my soul. Thank you, Shank!

"Here there be Monsters" - this is about the bad sort of pain and suffering.....


“In our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom through the awful grace of God.” AESCHYLUS

I may have heard that quote before, but it never registered. Not so long ago I was watching a film about Robert F. Kennedy and he made that quote the evening of the assassination of Martin L. King Jr. The program profiled the pain and despair RFK dealt with following the death of his brother. Watching his drop into darkness and the struggle to regain his footing can be seen as a model of hope for a nation struggling with so much pain in the 60's only to confront another assassination, King, and soon to deal with one more yet to come, RFK's.

The quote by Aeschylus brought up personal memories of my struggles with death of loved ones and betrayal and abandonment. I now know much more about the world, about people, about love, about compassion and about being of help where I can.

That last part, "the awful grace of God" speaks volumes and brings sorrow every time I read it for all the pain we all suffer. Many here have spoken about the struggles they encounter - I wonder, do some of you find any wisdom eventually from that suffering?

I think pain is a necessary part of being human, just as joy is, and that the one cannot exist without the other. My losses - and I have had many, starting with my father's brain damage at the age of 12 (he was my life and still lived with us after, and my mother took absolute care of him). Yet I would not be who I am today without those losses and the subsequent experiences - many difficult - that they brought me. Loss has taught me compassion and given me not just a tolerance but an absolute unconditional acceptance of others.

I am terrified that new advances in our understanding of addiction and brain chemistry may lead to drugs that are able to completely eliminate not only fellings of sorrow and pain, but of strong desires, and ultimately joy, as well...

I don't subscribe the the idea that God doesn't give us more than we can handle or indeed that God exists and gives a damn at all.

Plenty of people are given more than they can handle. The mental breakdowns and suicide rates show that, IMO.

I don't believe that wisdom only comes through pain though I do see a terrible beauty in the first post quote that you posted Shank.

I do believe that yes, Grace you've won! Damned right you have!

I do agree that if we survive something that's terrible or difficult intact and can still enjoy life we tend to be stronger than if we'd never faced such horrible things but fuck if I'm glad to face those obstacles or see my children do so!

Fury, thank you for posting this. I also don't believe that there exists a God(dess) who hands out negative experiences only to make us stronger. Or that we can all handle everything that comes our way - my comment about psychotropic drugs not withstanding, I went on Wellbutrin at a time last year when I know that so much had happened so quickly to me that I could not have functioned without it's help.

I don't mean to criticize anyone by saying this, but I also think that such beliefs are the provenance of people who have never experienced - as I have not - truly horrible things, such as those currently enduring war in Darfour, or who survived the killing fields of Cambodia, or people who lived through the Holocost or those who somehow managed to survive the slaving ships and the dark passage here.

At the same time, I do believe that given support, and love, and a certain level of personal resources, we have the capacity and also the responsibility to not find but to create some meaning out of those difficult things we have lived through, and that being able to find our way to do so is part of a sacred path that puts us in touch more deeply with not only our own but others' beauty and humanity.

Just my 2¢
Thank you for this oppportunity to think and feel, Shank.
Neon

 

[Netzach]

I don't subscribe the the idea that God doesn't give us more than we can handle or indeed that God exists and gives a damn at all.

Plenty of people are given more than they can handle. The mental breakdowns and suicide rates show that, IMO.

I don't believe that wisdom only comes through pain though I do see a terrible beauty in the first post quote that you posted Shank.

I do believe that yes, Grace you've won! Damned right you have!

I do agree that if we survive something that's terrible or difficult intact and can still enjoy life we tend to be stronger than if we'd never faced such horrible things but fuck if I'm glad to face those obstacles or see my children do so!

I do not believe that everything happens for a reason. As if there is this wonderful cosmic plan but we are just too damn stupid to understand it.

I call bullshit on that.

Some things happen for no reason at all.

Some things suck for no reason.

But the reverse is also true. If you look hard enough you can find good things in every day and every life.

This shit is only my opinion and like ass holes we all have one. My thoughts are not meant in any way to argue against anyone else's or invalidate them. I'm cool with people not all believing the same stuff.

Fury

I'm pretty much with you. Except I think everything happens as it is supposed to. Not for "a good reason" no no, not that. But because "it is" is its own inexhorable force. There is nothing "good" to be taken from the senseless - it is simply to be averted or a marker of the sheer brutality of which humans are capable, a warning not a monument.

 

[DVS]

I tend to agree with your full post.

the equation, as I see it, is sorta like this

knowledge + feeling (often painful) = wisdom

and for me, some persistent sweet melancholy

knowledge + awareness x emotion = wisdom.

The knowledge acquired from the awareness that something exists, compounded by the emotional feelings you experience from it (both good and bad) is wisdom.

It is possible to experience something without feeling emotion. In that case, the resulting wisdom will pass you by. Emotion is life. Any emotion, be it good or bad, makes you feel alive. Emotion feeds the soul. Without emotion, your soul really can't exist. You are still there, but a callus, almost mundane existance is the result, instead.

 

[Shankara20]

knowledge + awareness x emotion = wisdom.

The knowledge acquired from the awareness that something exists, compounded by the emotional feelings you experience from it (both good and bad) is wisdom.

It is possible to experience something without feeling emotion. In that case, the resulting wisdom will pass you by. Emotion is life. Any emotion, be it good or bad, makes you feel alive. Emotion feeds the soul. Without emotion, your soul really can't exist. You are still there, but a callus, almost mundane existance is the result, instead.

I bow* to your explanation. Well stated.
I was incorrectly using the word "feeling" for your fuller word "emotion" and I like the inclusing of the need for "awareness"

yes indeed, well stated.


*taking the proper protection while bowing in your presents, or course


.

 

[Shankara20]

link to enlightenment


I always feel better when I visit that