Assertive or Unfriendly?

Mischka

Ms Snooby Pants
Joined
Mar 18, 2001
Posts
15,820
I don’t know if I’m overreacting, so I thought I’d explain the situation here and ask for comments. I’ve been stewing over this all day.

I’m in my first year of law school at a top tier school. One of the major assignments this semester has been to present an oral argument before a panel of judges. We pair up, research, draft a brief, and then present the argument as a team. I was informally told to select a male partner, because an all-female team appears “weak.” Being 5’10” (and hence scraping 6’ in heels), I had difficulty finding a suitable (read – taller) and articulate partner, but I finally did. He’s been a great partner, so no complaints there.

Yesterday we presented our argument. Three males judges, with two males presenting the defendant’s position, and my partner and I arguing for the plaintiff. I spoke first, and was amazed at how any nervousness washed away in seconds. I was completely at ease discussing the nuances of the law, and I really enjoyed the experience. The time seemed to fly by.

After the competition, the judges critiqued our performances. I received excellent marks in all categories: I answered all questions with ease and full knowledge of the supporting case law; I was able to quickly transition back to my argument after answering the questions; my closing was superb (that’s what they said, this is not just my opinion). The one exception to my great review was that I wasn’t friendly enough. The other students received average to above average marks, but were all specifically told that they seemed nicer than me.

This would be a fair comment if I intentionally presented myself as an uber-bitch, but I am considered rather friendly. However, I am an assertive woman, with no problem speaking up and an obvious command of the subject matter. So I was left with the distinct impression that the criticism was not based so much on an alleged unfriendly disposition, but on my gender. Was their criticism that I was acting too much “like a man?” Or am I entirely blowing this out of proportion?
 
I have no clue as to how people offline percieve you.

However I know how *I* percieve you on the board. And I don't think you are at all unfriendly. I think you're assertive, aggressive and opinionated, but NOT unfriendly.

:)
 
CelestialBody said:
Perhaps it would be better to ask this of the students who had been in the room? Just a thought.
I should have mentioned that the other students told me they were surprised that I was viewed as unfriendly. Besides being annoyed today, I am a natural optimist and smile incessantly.

And thank you, Angel and CB, for not considering me unfriendly on-line. I try to be even-handed around here. I'm still so new, I don't want to step on anyone's toes just yet.

[Edited by Mischka on 04-11-2001 at 09:18 PM]
 
Mischka, howya doin? I'm WS. ;)

When I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about MP. LOL.

On topic, judging solely by what you've told us here, you could be right. However, I didn't know friendliness was a quality a lawyer would generally want to develop in arguments. Friendliness to juries? Sure. Friendliness toward clients? Absolutely. But when arguing a case before judges? <Shrugs>

Of course, the only stuff I know about law is what I see on TV. ;)
 
Whispersecret said:
Mischka, howya doin? I'm WS. ;)

When I saw the thread title, I thought this was going to be about MP. LOL.

On topic, judging solely by what you've told us here, you could be right. However, I didn't know friendliness was a quality a lawyer would generally want to develop in arguments. Friendliness to juries? Sure. Friendliness toward clients? Absolutely. But when arguing a case before judges? <Shrugs>

Of course, the only stuff I know about law is what I see on TV. ;)
Ditto!

( Except change the first line to Mischka, howya doin? I'm Cheyenne. )
 
It's really hard being female in cases like this. If you make the effort to come across as professional, prepared, and confident, this sometimes comes across as unfriendly and aggressive (though a man can do the very same thing and it's not taken as unfriendly). At the same time, if you try to go the other way and be a people-pleaser, then you're a wimpy dishrag mother-figure to be disregarded.

I think there are certain people - male & female - who will always be offended by confident, intelligent women. However, I consider myself to be fairly open-minded and I too have felt taken aback by certain professional women. In fact, today I had to speak with such a woman on the phone. She was well-spoken and knowledgeable, but so cold and snippy that she really turned me off - to the point where I went with another offer. Being intelligent and female does NOT mean you have to be an uptight bitch. This woman was older and had spent years getting to where she was, and it showed. It's a shame.

There's no way to please everyone, so I guess the answer is to be the person you want to be. Be confident, but remember that confidence doesn't preclude warmth. Be YOU. There's going to be people who don't like you no matter waht you do. If their reasons are valid, take them to heart. If they don't like you because you're a kick-ass chick and that puts them off, then fuck em.

[Edited - I said "kiss-ass" instead of "kick-ass" - oops!]
 
Mischka said:
CelestialBody said:
Perhaps it would be better to ask this of the students who had been in the room? Just a thought.
I should have mentioned that the other students told me they were surprised that I was viewed as unfriendly. Besides being annoyed today, I am a natural optimist and smile incessantly.

And thank you, Angel and CB, for not considering me unfriendly on-line. I try to be even-handed around here. I'm still so new, I don't want to step on anyone's toes just yet.

[Edited by Mischka on 04-11-2001 at 09:18 PM]

Suggestion?
Don't let anyone's toes get in the way of how you feel. ;)
 
Assertive or unfriendly

Mischka--

I would suggest you disregard the 'unfriendly' comment
and stay the course.

Every lawyer has their own style, demeanor and presentation.
I've got 3 attys (Business/Corporate, Civil and Criminal)
and each one is uniquely separate from the other--Law
school is a good dress rehearsal but it's not anywhere
near real life--Experience will teach you that.
 
Thank you all for your comments, and hello back to you WS and Cheyenne. I feel much better after sharing/venting.
And even though I felt comfortable in the presentation, I think I'll try to add a nicer edge to my next competition to see if it helps. If I'm still deemed unfriendly, so be it. I'll just become a judge myself and then I won't have to worry about any of this.
 
I bet the male judges would never tell a guy he was not friendly enough

:p
 
Hey SIren you were reading my mind on this one!

It is sad too that people fail to see only the exterior and not the individual. Even CB falls prey to the sterotypical classifications of her friends being "SO AGGRESSIVE".
I want my doctor, lawyer and whoever to be aggressive and proactive. It frequently comes from a basis of knowlege and superior judgement. So keep on being exactly who you are. You sound like the type of person I would want on my side anyday.
 
Well, in a nutshell, you weren't one of "them."

I have worked for many attorneys, women and men. Some women were beyond bitchy, somewhere in the scary realm; others were not. However, all of them were assertive and confident.

I'd let it pass. Also, next time try for a short partner. The two of you together might have been overwhelming. :)
 
Thanks Gingersnap.....that is one of my fav cookies btw.

:p
 
Mischka said:
After the competition, the judges critiqued our performances. I received excellent marks in all categories: .... The one exception to my great review was that I wasn’t friendly enough.

I think there is a simpler explanation than others have suggested.

I think that your performance was so good that they had to find something to suggest as an area for improvement.

Specifically noting that the others were friendlier is the flip side of the coin -- they had to find something the others did better than you did to seem even handed.

I suppose that it is possible that you got so involved and focused that you may have seemed unemotional in your presentation, which made you seem less "friendly" than you are in less stressful situations. That is something that you probably should need to be aware of but will go away as you become less stressed by such presentations.

I think you should take it as a compliment that they had to dig up such a minor point to find something to suggest.
 
Weird Harold said:
Mischka said:
After the competition, the judges critiqued our performances. I received excellent marks in all categories: .... The one exception to my great review was that I wasn’t friendly enough.


I think you should take it as a compliment that they had to dig up such a minor point to find something to suggest.

That's a very good point. I wonder, beyond the 'hard facts' of your course, was there ever any mention of presentation style, such as any definition or examples of being 'friendly'? If not, then WH has hit the nail on the head. It does seem as though those judging you have picked up on a very small facet of the overall display. Put it in perspective, you seem to have done exceedingly well. I'd read your consternation as signifying that you are a perfectionist, with attention to detail. This is a very positive quality which will stand you in good stead in the work place. You've already taken on board the criticisms and moved on (through interaction on the BB for example). I see nothing for you to be overly troubled about.
 
um... Mischka? can i call you if i need a Lawyer?

the way you describe your experience in the 'mock trial' (at ease, knew your facts, didn't stray from your argument ect...) i'd want You representing me in court. The atmosphere in a trial can be described as many thing, 'friendly' isn't one word that readaly comes to mind though.

If 'not friendly enough' is the worst that can be said about you in that situation then let me know when you pass the bar......ok?
 
Cotton Candy Aside

CB I do not think I am so off the mark here. You impress me as someone with a bias towards women. That is very understandable given your roots. You seem to take issue on the board with women more often then men and are quick to be a trifle harsher with them. You tend to focus a lot on Deb and Siren while leaving Sparky and Blue pretty much alone. Whats up with that sister? I have seen DCL say just as inflammatory things and yet you coo and drool over him. Could be wrong here but I am thinking not very likely.
 
Geez, this place is an ego-boost. Thank you all for your compliments, and rest assured that I will be shouting from the rooftops when I pass the bar.

After reading Weird Harold's post and furter reflection, I think my reaction to the judges was the legal equivalent of a medical student's hypochondria upon learning of new diseases. I've been reading gender discrimination cases, and think I was a bit hyper-sensitive to the subject. I do not discount the effects of being a woman in a male-dominated field, but in this case, I believe their criticism was valid. I probably appeared too serious, and even with judges, a personal connection is key.

And speaking of gender discrimination cases, I came across the following in a footnote:

Dr. Edward H. Clarke of Harvard Medical School, the author of the influential book Sex in Education (1873), maintained that the physiological effects of hard study and academic competition with boys interferes with the development of girls' reproductive organs. "Identical education of the two sexes is a crime before God and humanity, that physiology protests against, and that experience weeps over." Insisting on competing in the intellectual race "incapacitates [women] for adequate performance of the natural functions of their sex" and that after five or six weeks of "mental and educational discipline, a healthy woman loses the habit of menstruation and suffers numerous ills as a result of depriving her body for the sake of her mind."

I don't know about you, but my ovaries have just been killing me lately.
 
Cheyenne said:
Whispersecret said:
Mischka, howya doin? I'm WS. ;)


On topic, judging solely by what you've told us here, you could be right. However, I didn't know friendliness was a quality a lawyer would generally want to develop in arguments. Friendliness to juries? Sure. Friendliness toward clients? Absolutely. But when arguing a case before judges? <Shrugs>

Of course, the only stuff I know about law is what I see on TV. ;)
Ditto!

( Except change the first line to Mischka, howya doin? I'm Cheyenne. )

Ditto, Ditto except change the name to Willy this time
 
Mischka said:
Insisting on competing in the intellectual race "incapacitates [women] for adequate performance of the natural functions of their sex" and that after five or six weeks of "mental and educational discipline, a healthy woman loses the habit of menstruation and suffers numerous ills as a result of depriving her body for the sake of her mind."

I don't know about you, but my ovaries have just been killing me lately.

Yeah, I wish that school made me stop having my period! Geez.
 
willywanker said:
Cheyenne said:
Whispersecret said:
Mischka, howya doin? I'm WS. ;)


On topic, judging solely by what you've told us here, you could be right. However, I didn't know friendliness was a quality a lawyer would generally want to develop in arguments. Friendliness to juries? Sure. Friendliness toward clients? Absolutely. But when arguing a case before judges? <Shrugs>

Of course, the only stuff I know about law is what I see on TV. ;)
Ditto!

( Except change the first line to Mischka, howya doin? I'm Cheyenne. )

Ditto, Ditto except change the name to Willy this time

Except change the name to indyweasel.

Sorry I am feeling a bit lazy today. Please do not take it personally.
 
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