BDSM in the Modern, Enlightened World.

[Netzach]

What other people think about my kink has no impact on my enjoying it. Isn't this like the goth kids saying it's no more fun to walk around in the mall in their edgy clothes because Hot Topic is so mainstream? Now, the poor goths don't shock anyone anymore. They are no longer "the edge".

The "edge" of my kink comes from me exploring my dark and personal desires and limits as well as my partner's. If we were on a deserted island it'd still be the same passionate, "edgy" fun, except we'd have to be more innovative about the toys.

Akasha

This made me smile:

"Every band I ever liked magically sucks the minute they sign to a major."

I love that mentality.

I mean it takes 3 major label releases before real sucking happens.


unrelated to the above:

I actually *do* kind of enjoy the outlaw status of SM sex. However, I don't think that the 15 minutes of fame which bondage/SM is currently enjoying has anything to do with acceptance or actual mainstreaming. I also have no delusions that people who don't do SM are somehow missing out or inferior or unenlightened or repressed. My immediate circle of friends busts that myth.

 

[Cherrysweetdeal]

It may be more openly ok but not all see it as a proper way to live. Although my parents have said be careful and do what makes you happy I was not forced into living an alternative or vanilla lifestyle.

It depends on the way you live your life, whether you spend some time as a simple vanilla office worker with a few kinks such as a suggestive email or phone call or masturbation underneath the desk or you live as a full fledged slave.

Personally I see it just as living happily and enjoying what makes you happy. If you don't get off on kink then you don't but just because it's more known throughout society does not mean it can't be any less fun.

 

[bg23]

I can definitely say that I no longer have the outlaw thrill that I had in the days when I first began consciously working out a place for myself in this cosa nostra . I feel lucky to have been out (to myself anyway) as a perv before the massive wave of internet popularization hit. I really did walk the streets with my sweetie feeling like we were the only two people in the world who understood this dangerous, forbidden and supremely non-PC thing. However, most of that is probably just the mellowing (or some would say the embittering) influence of age and jadedness. No doubt the young guns have their own outlaw thrills.

This was a good post.

Quite aside from it becoming mainstream however, as I don't believe that the popularisation of a certain culture is necessarily negative, per se, there is the problem of it tending to lose a certain authenticity. Given enough "wannabes" in any practice, the practice itself begins to appear farcical. Certainly the practices of "cyberbdsm", to my view, contribute to this.

It is not bdsm itself which has lost it's edge - but the fact that it has become something so open, so accessible to many means that inevitably, there must be those who participate, and in doing so, create a certain stereotype. Stereotypes are the death of any culture.

I do not, however, feel that this need impact at all on individual relationships. As relative and subjective as our perceptions are, it's inevitable that the practices, preferences will differ. Something somebody regards as "wannabe" may be regarded as essential to somebody else. Ultimately, I don't suppose anybody is in any position to objectively set a standard - only to assess from their own view. And where individual relationships are concerned, the common perception of the culture need not impact in the least. So long as one is comfortable in what one chooses to enjoy, what other's think, or what one feels to be the general degradation of it should not make you lose any sleep.

 

[Unafraid]

This was a good post.

Quite aside from it becoming mainstream however, as I don't believe that the popularisation of a certain culture is necessarily negative, per se, there is the problem of it tending to lose a certain authenticity. Given enough "wannabes" in any practice, the practice itself begins to appear farcical. Certainly the practices of "cyberbdsm", to my view, contribute to this.

It is not bdsm itself which has lost it's edge - but the fact that it has become something so open, so accessible to many means that inevitably, there must be those who participate, and in doing so, create a certain stereotype. Stereotypes are the death of any culture.

I do not, however, feel that this need impact at all on individual relationships. As relative and subjective as our perceptions are, it's inevitable that the practices, preferences will differ. Something somebody regards as "wannabe" may be regarded as essential to somebody else. Ultimately, I don't suppose anybody is in any position to objectively set a standard - only to assess from their own view. And where individual relationships are concerned, the common perception of the culture need not impact in the least. So long as one is comfortable in what one chooses to enjoy, what other's think, or what one feels to be the general degradation of it should not make you lose any sleep.

hmm

Very well-said.

 

[robbie_boy1]

No, I’m afraid not.

There is the dogma – you feel you have the message and all others are wrong. That is a tiny bit sad but expected. I was hopeful of serious and committed debate but to debate, one must fully understand the subject and the philosophy.

To describe one as being in one world is also limiting – I play in the universe.

A note. I think you should be aware that I understand more about your world that you possibly expect.

Greetings Orientla chick...

Excuse me if you will, i do not play in the political correct agenda, you come to the site questioning what is and what is not. Could you tell me where you stand with your position and stuff. If you are upset that I called you a oriental chick, blame the viet nam war and our government.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Greetings Orientla chick...

Excuse me if you will, i do not play in the political correct agenda, you come to the site questioning what is and what is not. Could you tell me where you stand with your position and stuff. If you are upset that I called you a oriental chick, blame the viet nam war and our government.

What IS Bjork, anyway? Eskimo??

 

[bg23]

Greetings Orientla chick...

Excuse me if you will, i do not play in the political correct agenda, you come to the site questioning what is and what is not. Could you tell me where you stand with your position and stuff. If you are upset that I called you a oriental chick, blame the viet nam war and our government.

*slaps*
that's for calling metro oriental.

*slaps*
that's for being a fuckwit.

 

[s'lara]

This was a good post.

Quite aside from it becoming mainstream however, as I don't believe that the popularisation of a certain culture is necessarily negative, per se, there is the problem of it tending to lose a certain authenticity. Given enough "wannabes" in any practice, the practice itself begins to appear farcical. Certainly the practices of "cyberbdsm", to my view, contribute to this.

It is not bdsm itself which has lost it's edge - but the fact that it has become something so open, so accessible to many means that inevitably, there must be those who participate, and in doing so, create a certain stereotype. Stereotypes are the death of any culture.

I do not, however, feel that this need impact at all on individual relationships. As relative and subjective as our perceptions are, it's inevitable that the practices, preferences will differ. Something somebody regards as "wannabe" may be regarded as essential to somebody else. Ultimately, I don't suppose anybody is in any position to objectively set a standard - only to assess from their own view. And where individual relationships are concerned, the common perception of the culture need not impact in the least. So long as one is comfortable in what one chooses to enjoy, what other's think, or what one feels to be the general degradation of it should not make you lose any sleep.

Not sure that i agree with this position. Popularization of anything can have additional negative impacts aside from the loss of authenticity. In this culture, the BDSM culture, the growing appeal of the lifestyle can attract those who are i) dangerous in their inexperience and eagerness or ii) nefarious individuals looking to use the practices in a negative and harmful way.

The mass population stereotypes concerning BDSM existed long before it was popular in the mainstream. If you're talking about the stereotypes originated and often cited by pseudo-BDSM types, those were also in place long before the advent of the internet. There were wannabe Dominants and subs prowling the scene where they created their own legend as inauthentic players. The internet just created a widespread opportunity to play the roles from the safety of their home.

i agree that subjectivity lends quite a bit to what we perceive to be the real thing vs. fakery. i will say this however. If i am engaging in activities where skill is required in order for me to remain unharmed, i will not solely rely on my personal perception of what is a wannabe or what is authentic. There is no question that Dom X, who has training and skill with a bullwhip, is going to be my first choice if that is what i need. To choose Dom Y because He/She seems to fit the bill is sorely lacking in judgement, especially if He/She thinks that obtaining a knowledge base of bullwhips is unnecessary.

True, our needs are different. There are characteristics in each of us that make a good match for someone else. However, there is absolutely no substitute for skill and without it, the self-proclaimed Dom Y who states He/She is a bullwhip expert, is in fact, a wannabe.

The standards with respect to certain BDSM practices are all based on safety, knowledge and training. Subjectivism or "well, He/She seems to know what they're doing" should have no place in activities where harm is possible.

lara

 

[AngelicAssassin]

What IS Bjork, anyway? Eskimo??

Icelandic.

 

[Xelebes]

Icelandic.

Have you ever partied with Icelandic people? They are craaaaazy stuff, man.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Have you ever partied with Icelandic people? They are craaaaazy stuff, man.

No, but did time, both work and play, with Norwegians and Finns. Most of them have wit dry enough to suck the lube out of a nymphomanic then fuck them sandpaper style for laughs. Lack of daylight makes you nuts/suicidal.

 

[bg23]

Not sure that i agree with this position. Popularization of anything can have additional negative impacts aside from the loss of authenticity. In this culture, the BDSM culture, the growing appeal of the lifestyle can attract those who are i) dangerous in their inexperience and eagerness or ii) nefarious individuals looking to use the practices in a negative and harmful way.

The mass population stereotypes concerning BDSM existed long before it was popular in the mainstream. If you're talking about the stereotypes originated and often cited by pseudo-BDSM types, those were also in place long before the advent of the internet. There were wannabe Dominants and subs prowling the scene where they created their own legend as inauthentic players. The internet just created a widespread opportunity to play the roles from the safety of their home.

i agree that subjectivity lends quite a bit to what we perceive to be the real thing vs. fakery. i will say this however. If i am engaging in activities where skill is required in order for me to remain unharmed, i will not solely rely on my personal perception of what is a wannabe or what is authentic. There is no question that Dom X, who has training and skill with a bullwhip, is going to be my first choice if that is what i need. To choose Dom Y because He/She seems to fit the bill is sorely lacking in judgement, especially if He/She thinks that obtaining a knowledge base of bullwhips is unnecessary.

True, our needs are different. There are characteristics in each of us that make a good match for someone else. However, there is absolutely no substitute for skill and without it, the self-proclaimed Dom Y who states He/She is a bullwhip expert, is in fact, a wannabe.

The standards with respect to certain BDSM practices are all based on safety, knowledge and training. Subjectivism or "well, He/She seems to know what they're doing" should have no place in activities where harm is possible.

lara

i understand your point. i agree. i choose to read your response not as a disagreement towards my own position, but simply an elaboration of it.

certainly common sense needs to come into the equation when one is choosing a dom/partner, etc. i do not believe that common sense and safety considerations need necessarily conflict with what one perceives to be characteristics that "fit the bill". for example, if Dom Y does not see safety consideration is something that is necessary, then i certainly would not see him as "fitting the bill".

understanding that individual perceptions of the correct way to practice a lifestyle does not mean that you cannot have judgements regarding the way that others set about doing so, nor does it mean that you cannot exercise your freedom to choose not to follow others. this can, perhaps, be seen by using, loosely, the example of morality. i may believe that morals are a product of cultural upbringing and traditions, and that they are relative. this does not mean that i cannot have my own morals, nor does it mean that i cannot make judgments of others based on my own morals. it is possible to make an assessment of what is right and wrong based on historical evidence. once again, loosely, with regard to bdsm, it is possible to make assessments based not on an objective authority but on historical experience - one can make the judgment that those careless of safety are not truely "doms", based on experience, common sense, and so forth.

when i spoke about subjectivity, i was speaking generally in terms of what an individual may see as the correct interpretation of the lifestyle. certainly i would not disagree with your assessment of the need to take safety considerations into account, but i do not believe that the two positions are inconsistent either.

 

[Netzach]

No, but did time, both work and play, with Norwegians and Finns. Most of them have wit dry enough to suck the lube out of a nymphomanic then fuck them sandpaper style for laughs. Lack of daylight makes you nuts/suicidal.

This explains Minnesota as well.

 

[Quint]

This explains Minnesota as well.

There is no explanation for Minnesota.

 

[Marquis]

BG, given our history I have no doubt you'll take this as an affront, but the amount of equivocating you're doing in this thread screams "I'm trying to get along". All in all, I'd rather see the marketplace of ideas stay open on this board, and I respect that you're putting thought into your posts, so I'd like to offer you my input.

What s'lara is trying to tell you (quite beautifully I might add) is that the popularization of information on BDSM practices can create an unrealistic impression of what a "real Dom" or a "real sub" is. The truth is, these things are just labels and the only qualifications of being a real sub or a real Dom is the desire to be one.

You want to be a sub?

Congratulations, you're a sub.

Does that mean I would trust you not to go to the police after a few sessions.. umm... no.

As for Rosco's point that both you and the thread starter misinterpreted: In the wake of this new sexual conservatism that seems to be spreading through my gneration like a plague, there are bound to be groupies drawn to the BDSM world.

The Fetish parties I go to routinely attract over 800 guests. The vast majority of people are there because they get beat up at the clubs that play hip-hop or because they think they look good in latex. Many just prefer a more open environment. You would think all these "posers" would annoy the committed among us, but we keep a sense of humor about it. Having them around keeps costs low for those of us who can barely hide our wood when a whipping display is reaching its climax. Besides, we may be few and far between, but we know who we are.

Even on this forum, we know who we are.

 

[Marquis]

Oh and I dated an Icelandic girl once. She looked like an elf from the Lord of The Rings, totally gorgeous, but she got deported before I could fuck her. Goddamn INS.

 

[Xelebes]

No, but did time, both work and play, with Norwegians and Finns. Most of them have wit dry enough to suck the lube out of a nymphomanic then fuck them sandpaper style for laughs. Lack of daylight makes you nuts/suicidal.

What? You're saying that's not funny? Cuz, for your info, that's knee slapping hilarious!

Edit to Add: What is the sun?

 

[YinandYang]

Is BDSM what it used to be?

It’s become rather mainstream now, hasn’t it? Rather predictable – games, manoeuvrers and slow dancing to a strict rulebook – like 18th Century manners guides - the courage has gone.

And the edge has vanished.

That rule book only applies to the people that follow it right? What if a person never ventures online or in the scene, gains from their own experience, and grows from there? Is that mainstream?

I am not sure what you are comparing BDSM now to? If it wasn't mainstream 'back then' how would you know what you are comparing it to if it wasn't out in the open for all to see?

Its like the old comment my grandparents would have made 'people didnt die of such horrible diseases years ago' How would we know? Nothing much has changed except the fact that we are lucky (or unlucky) enough to have more communication through the media, internet etc. These things still happened, but we never got to hear about it.

 

[chris9]

Is BDSM what it used to be?

It’s become rather mainstream now, hasn’t it? Rather predictable – games, manoeuvrers and slow dancing to a strict rulebook – like 18th Century manners guides - the courage has gone.

And the edge has vanished.

I wouldn't know if and what changed, as I am just starting to look into it.
I know that for me finding out things is way easier with the internet, forums as this one. Like from early on I had fantasies about pain, being forced, controlled... Only a short time ago, when discovering Lit I found stories dealing with bdsm that fascinated me. And the stories, the talk here, the items in online-stores showed me that I'm far from alone or *sick* in my fantasies. I don't think without it I would have had the courage to talk to S about it and start doing little bits from time to time.
Mainstream: In a way, yes. No advice book on sex without telling to tie up and/or blindfold your partner to enhance the experience. But that most definitely isn't the real deal. On the other hand submitting viewed from the society is always associated with weakness, with women who *forget* that they are equal, with *un-manly* men...
At the same time the awareness to domestic violence is increasing and even though bdsm is more out there, you will have a hard time explaining SSC to the police, when they are so much used to putting the beating male in jail, protecting the woman...
Maybe if the edge vanishes, all those wannabes will return to their holes, because being different, being on the edge is so way cool that it will just attract some people (same with all trends). Everybody else will continue to search for a life that fits them, wether mainstream or on the edge. And as long as you dare yourself every now and then to your personal edge, to push it farther and make you better, happier, more fullfilled, who cares about the edge of society?

 

[Netzach]

You would think all these "posers" would annoy the committed among us, but we keep a sense of humor about it. Having them around keeps costs low for those of us who can barely hide our wood when a whipping display is reaching its climax. Besides, we may be few and far between, but we know who we are.

Even on this forum, we know who we are.

I personally think there's a very big tent here, too, and not to pick on you, but all is not always happy in paradise and we have some serious hierarchies within the BDSM world. These are some that I've encountered.

What a lot of people I know call "poseur" might actually be someone who likes spanking/SM/fetish and doesn't give a rat's ass about Dee Ess. Those people get marginalized big time, I've found. God forbid you just trade off SM activities with your partner -- until you have skills the Dee Ess people want to learn, then suddenly you are the "real deal" and everyone wants to be your friend.

Dress-for-pleasure? Don't even get me started - we love to criticize people who dress the part and "don't do anything." If someone is as committed to their latex fetish as I am to my skill with rope, more power to them.

But I'm certainly not impressed with vague "gee it's not what it was" complaints about the community. What was it that you are missing? If you can't answer that in some detail, I question the question.

 

[Marquis]

I personally think there's a very big tent here, too, and not to pick on you, but all is not always happy in paradise and we have some serious hierarchies within the BDSM world. These are some that I've encountered.

What a lot of people I know call "poseur" might actually be someone who likes spanking/SM/fetish and doesn't give a rat's ass about Dee Ess. Those people get marginalized big time, I've found. God forbid you just trade off SM activities with your partner -- until you have skills the Dee Ess people want to learn, then suddenly you are the "real deal" and everyone wants to be your friend.

Dress-for-pleasure? Don't even get me started - we love to criticize people who dress the part and "don't do anything." If someone is as committed to their latex fetish as I am to my skill with rope, more power to them.

But I'm certainly not impressed with vague "gee it's not what it was" complaints about the community. What was it that you are missing? If you can't answer that in some detail, I question the question.

There was a reason I put posers in quotes. I don't care to call anyone a poser because we all have our own reasons for being there. However, it is the first defense of the person who thinks they're being called a poser to challenge the "realness" of the one they assume is talking. Insecurity and overcompensation at it's best.

But you're perceptive about non-D/s people getting marginalized in the Fetish scene. I've seen it too, so I don't have much of a response for that.

 

[Quint]

I personally think there's a very big tent here, too, and not to pick on you, but all is not always happy in paradise and we have some serious hierarchies within the BDSM world. These are some that I've encountered.

What a lot of people I know call "poseur" might actually be someone who likes spanking/SM/fetish and doesn't give a rat's ass about Dee Ess. Those people get marginalized big time, I've found. God forbid you just trade off SM activities with your partner -- until you have skills the Dee Ess people want to learn, then suddenly you are the "real deal" and everyone wants to be your friend.

Dress-for-pleasure? Don't even get me started - we love to criticize people who dress the part and "don't do anything." If someone is as committed to their latex fetish as I am to my skill with rope, more power to them.

But I'm certainly not impressed with vague "gee it's not what it was" complaints about the community. What was it that you are missing? If you can't answer that in some detail, I question the question.

Great points. There's this guy at the couple of parties I went to, big bald brawny fellow. I have no idea where he fits into the power exchange spectrum, but when they have their violet wand and fireplay exhibits, he's first to volunteer his shiny head for the privilege. It's fabulous! And though I'm sure Mr. Red Riding Hood in thigh-highs is there for more than the fashion show, if bunny girl over in the corner just knows she looks hot, that's her satisfaction and I'm sure as hell not going to begrudge her of it.

I do notice kind of a dichotomy we get into. Sometimes someone will bring up a topic here, e.g. bestiality or snuff, that we say "nope, not BDSM so why discuss it here?" which sounds a lot like the attitude against latex fetishizers or pain players. I'll agree that there are differences between dee ess and fetish, but really, doesn't it all come down to an element of nonstandard objectification and/or sexualization? I could be way off base but that's my thought.

 

[bg23]

BG, given our history I have no doubt you'll take this as an affront, but the amount of equivocating you're doing in this thread screams "I'm trying to get along". All in all, I'd rather see the marketplace of ideas stay open on this board, and I respect that you're putting thought into your posts, so I'd like to offer you my input.

What s'lara is trying to tell you (quite beautifully I might add) is that the popularization of information on BDSM practices can create an unrealistic impression of what a "real Dom" or a "real sub" is. The truth is, these things are just labels and the only qualifications of being a real sub or a real Dom is the desire to be one.

You want to be a sub?

Congratulations, you're a sub.

Does that mean I would trust you not to go to the police after a few sessions.. umm... no.

As for Rosco's point that both you and the thread starter misinterpreted: In the wake of this new sexual conservatism that seems to be spreading through my gneration like a plague, there are bound to be groupies drawn to the BDSM world.

The Fetish parties I go to routinely attract over 800 guests. The vast majority of people are there because they get beat up at the clubs that play hip-hop or because they think they look good in latex. Many just prefer a more open environment. You would think all these "posers" would annoy the committed among us, but we keep a sense of humor about it. Having them around keeps costs low for those of us who can barely hide our wood when a whipping display is reaching its climax. Besides, we may be few and far between, but we know who we are.

Even on this forum, we know who we are.

i understood s'lara's point perfectly, but thank you for attempting to simplify it for me.

my previous point still stands. understanding the importance of subjective perception and applying one's own beliefs and preferences need not at all be incongruent.

if you have an objection to my post, please address it, and we may discuss it.

 

[Marquis]

i understood s'lara's point perfectly, but thank you for attempting to simplify it for me.

my previous point still stands. understanding the importance of subjective perception and applying one's own beliefs and preferences need not at all be incongruent.

if you have an objection to my post, please address it, and we may discuss it.

I have no objection to your post BG. Welcome to the BDSM board, I hope you learn a lot.

 

[chris9]

I do notice kind of a dichotomy we get into. Sometimes someone will bring up a topic here, e.g. bestiality or snuff, that we say "nope, not BDSM so why discuss it here?" which sounds a lot like the attitude against latex fetishizers or pain players. I'll agree that there are differences between dee ess and fetish, but really, doesn't it all come down to an element of nonstandard objectification and/or sexualization? I could be way off base but that's my thought.

And then, what is D/s other than a very clear statement about who wields power in a relationship. And fifty (or something) years back at least around here it was cristal clear that the husband had the last say, the money, the right to take his wife sexually... I wouldn't say every married couple used to live in a D/s relationship, though.
I think everybody has their own definition of what is part of the things that belong to this board. If we take the pain (bdSM, so it should go here), there now is a thread of Catalina about being submissive but being sadist. So this seems to go together somehow in the kinks of some. And then forcing the sub to participate in a kink their dom/me have (e.g. watersports) is IMO part of the bdsm whereas only the kink without the power exchange going wouldn't be.
So in the end we *might* come to the conclusion that certain thing belong to bdsm for sure, but that others don't necessarily. Possibly we won't come even that far, though... What is this thing called bdsm?