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Beyond Abstinence

Corylea said:
People make fun of the classes where kids have to carry a five-pound sack of flour with them everywhere and make sure that nothing bad happens to it.
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You bet I laugh at those, while complimenting the idea as brilliant and reaching for my checkbook to make a contribution to the program. Specifically, the one where they don't use a sack of flour but make the kids carry a sophisticated dummy around the clock for a few days that cries and stuff on a regular schedule, requiring attention to make it stop. Sheer brilliance - it should be mandatory in "at risk" schools.
 
Liar said:
Only if you take it as serious as a heart attack.

Free will is not extinct when it comes to teens and their hormones, but empirical data suggests that it's at the very least weakened, wouldn't ya say?
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I know, I know. :rose:
 
Roxanne Appleby said:
Yeah. When you look at the impact of illegitimacy on our society over the past 40 years he was right.
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Is that what it is? Not gang activity, or meth production, or the outrageous expansion of life-style expectations at the very same time the means to procure them are dropping for the middle class and lower class?
 
shereads said:
Recent studies of the human brain prove that teenagers are even less able than pre-adolescent children to resist impulsive actions. The part of the brain that considers consequences prior to taking action becomes relatively non-functioning in an excited teenager. It's why we put them in the front lines of combat; it's why abstinence pledges become a dim memory in the back seats of cars. It's why society should breathe a sigh of relief every time a teenaged girl wants to be on The Pill.
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Well -- yes, and you hope the guy might have the presence of mind and good manners to slip on on condom -- assuming of course that he had one handy. The pill isn't going to protect the girl from a variety of STD's, including AIDS.

But ... what are the ethics, if any, involved in such an impulsive act? I say this as one who was a spear bearer, so to speak, in the sexual revolution of the sixties. The key thing that happened there wasn't that people started to have sex before marriage -- it was that it became relatively respectable. Many people on this forum probably do not realize what a profound change that was. But even at its wildest, there was the notion of mutual, informed consent. Of citizens exerting their rights to personal freedom.

The question is -- how young can those "citizens" be? Do we have a coherent, self consistent alternative to abstinence -- a standard of conduct for teens that allows sexual behavior within some reasonable boundaries?

Right now, in the US, if you tried to set up a safe-sex environment for your teenage children and their lovers, you would probably wind up in jail for contributing to the delinquincy of minors.
 
WRJames said:
But ... what are the ethics, if any, involved in such an impulsive act?
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Not sure what you're asking, here. How many impulsive acts - by adults, much less by children - measure up to a high standard of moral ethics?
 
Stella_Omega said:
Are you being ironic here? :confused:
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Well -- maybe playing Devil's advocate. But if you went into a debate with someone who preached abstinence -- what are you going to offer as the alternative? Just the fact that preaching abstinence doesn't work all the time?

What would you tell Sarah Palin was the "right" thing to tell her children about sex?
 
I have a female cousin who's twelve years younger than I am. Both of us come from very repressive families, and her family was also very religious (in the Bible-thumping way, not in the trying-to-follow-Christ's-teachings way). When my cousin, R, went off to college, I sent her a copy of Our Bodies, Ourselves and told her that there was a lot in that book that she would need to know. She was quite grateful.

If it were up to me, I'd give a copy to every girl when she turned 13.
 
WRJames said:
Well -- maybe playing Devil's advocate. But if you went into a debate with someone who preached abstinence -- what are you going to offer as the alternative? Just the fact that preaching abstinence doesn't work all the time?

What would you tell Sarah Palin was the "right" thing to tell her children about sex?
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I don't care what Sarah Palin tells her own children about sex. Sadly for them, she is welcome to keep her kids as ignorant as her values dictate.

The objection is not to Palin denying her own children a sexual education if she chooses, but to Palin's advocacy of abstinence-only programs as public school policy. These teaching programs are called "abstinence only" for a reason: they remove or minimize references to all other means of keeping oneself safe from pregnancy and STDs.

Ignorance doesn't protect virtue. If it did, most people would remain virgins.
 
WRJames said:
Well -- maybe playing Devil's advocate. But if you went into a debate with someone who preached abstinence -- what are you going to offer as the alternative? Just the fact that preaching abstinence doesn't work all the time?

What would you tell Sarah Palin was the "right" thing to tell her children about sex?
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:rolleyes:
the soundbite version-- tell them everything about sex. give them anatomy, and reproduction, when theyre young, because little kids totally love that. When they're older, talk to them about what sex between two people is. Tell them that there are more ways to enjoy each other than merely penetrative sex, and more ways to pair up than one boy one girl-- and that they don't have to rush out and try this thing just because they know about it. But that like any activity there are rules to follow.

Teach safe sex, Teach SAFE sex, teach safe SEX, TEACH safe sex!!!!!!

TEACH SAFE SEX!!!!!!

If the girl had been fucking safely-- she wouldn't have gotten pregnant either.
 
So now Palin is being rewarded for either irresponsible parenting, or having an irresponsible daughter, and the reward is coming from the party that preaches personal responsibility? This is getting so confusing.

****

I think the last statistic I saw was one out of every four teenagers is now carrying an STD. You would think this would be reason enough to encourage condom awareness in schools. I mean, shouldn't they be passing them out in the halls, or putting them in free dispensers in the bathrooms? That's a lot of STDs to keep track of, and the young adults are only just getting started on their sexual journeys.
 
DeeZire said:
So now Palin is being rewarded for either irresponsible parenting, or having an irresponsible daughter, and the reward is coming from the party that preaches personal responsibility? This is getting so confusing.

****

I think the last statistic I saw was one out of every four teenagers is now carrying an STD. You would think this would be reason enough to encourage condom awareness in schools. I mean, shouldn't they be passing them out in the halls, or putting them in free dispensers in the bathrooms? That's a lot of STDs to keep track of, and the young adults are only just getting started on their sexual journeys.
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When I lived in the States ( military family, we live overseas currently, only been here 6 months), teens could go to the local health department and get condoms for free. I agree that kids need to be taught about the health aspects of sexual activity (anyone needs to know it, not just teens) but there will always be the gray area between all the teaching and access to condoms and other methods of birth control where it is up to the user of all these things whether or not to apply what they've learned. I don't think we'll ever be able to regulate that.
 
I want to lighten things up, so I'm posting a talking-to-kids-about-sex anecdote.

I was friends-with-benefits for awhile with a woman I'll call Sally. Sally had two kids, both girls, who were 4 and 8 at the time this incident takes place. Sally had settled her kids in front of the TV with one of their favorite videos, then we went upstairs. She asked me to spank her, and I was not at all adverse, so we engaged in this pleasant activity for awhile. Evidently the sound of hand striking flesh carried farther than we expected, because suddenly there were two little voices outside the closed bedroom door, saying, "Mommy, don't spank Cory!" Sally called through the door, "I'm not spanking Cory; Cory's spanking me." Well, the idea that anybody had enough authority to spank Mommy blew their poor little minds, and they had to go away for awhile and think about this. After a few minutes, they were back, "Cory, don't spank Mommy!"

We got dressed and opened the door. Sally explained that my spanking her was a game that we were playing, When they asked why we'd want to play a game that involved spanking, Sally said that grown-ups sometimes played games like this when they were having sex. The older one said, "I didn't know that two GIRLS could have sex!" Sally said sure they could -- two adults of any combination could have sex. Her older daughter thought for a minute, then said, "Are you going to have a baby now?"

Sally said, "Remember that conversation we had about the egg and the sperm and all? Only women have eggs, and only men have sperm, so while two women or two men can have sex, you can only have babies if a man and a woman have sex."

"If you can't have a baby, then why do you do it?"

"Because it's fun."

The older one thought deeply for awhile, a frown on her face, then said, "So women have sex with women for fun and with men to have babies."

This was so cute that we were tempted to leave it, but that wouldn't have been fair to her, so Sally said, "That's true, but sex with men can also be fun, so women have sex with men to have fun or to have babies but with women just for fun."

Bisexual polyamorous sadomasochists have a lot more to explain to their kids than most people do. :)
 
CORYLEA

Send it to Readers Digest "Sick Fuck Humor."
 
Corylea said:
I want to lighten things up, so I'm posting a talking-to-kids-about-sex anecdote.

I was friends-with-benefits for awhile with a woman I'll call Sally. Sally had two kids, both girls, who were 4 and 8 at the time this incident takes place. Sally had settled her kids in front of the TV with one of their favorite videos, then we went upstairs. She asked me to spank her, and I was not at all adverse, so we engaged in this pleasant activity for awhile. Evidently the sound of hand striking flesh carried farther than we expected, because suddenly there were two little voices outside the closed bedroom door, saying, "Mommy, don't spank Cory!" Sally called through the door, "I'm not spanking Cory; Cory's spanking me." Well, the idea that anybody had enough authority to spank Mommy blew their poor little minds, and they had to go away for awhile and think about this. After a few minutes, they were back, "Cory, don't spank Mommy!"

We got dressed and opened the door. Sally explained that my spanking her was a game that we were playing, When they asked why we'd want to play a game that involved spanking, Sally said that grown-ups sometimes played games like this when they were having sex. The older one said, "I didn't know that two GIRLS could have sex!" Sally said sure they could -- two adults of any combination could have sex. Her older daughter thought for a minute, then said, "Are you going to have a baby now?"

Sally said, "Remember that conversation we had about the egg and the sperm and all? Only women have eggs, and only men have sperm, so while two women or two men can have sex, you can only have babies if a man and a woman have sex."

"If you can't have a baby, then why do you do it?"

"Because it's fun."

The older one thought deeply for awhile, a frown on her face, then said, "So women have sex with women for fun and with men to have babies."

This was so cute that we were tempted to leave it, but that wouldn't have been fair to her, so Sally said, "That's true, but sex with men can also be fun, so women have sex with men to have fun or to have babies but with women just for fun."

Bisexual polyamorous sadomasochists have a lot more to explain to their kids than most people do. :)
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Sarah Palin just heard this story and fainted. :D
 
Stella_Omega said:
:rolleyes:
the soundbite version-- tell them everything about sex. give them anatomy, and reproduction, when theyre young, because little kids totally love that. When they're older, talk to them about what sex between two people is. Tell them that there are more ways to enjoy each other than merely penetrative sex, and more ways to pair up than one boy one girl-- and that they don't have to rush out and try this thing just because they know about it. But that like any activity there are rules to follow.

Teach safe sex, Teach SAFE sex, teach safe SEX, TEACH safe sex!!!!!!

TEACH SAFE SEX!!!!!!

If the girl had been fucking safely-- she wouldn't have gotten pregnant either.
Click to expand...

Okay -- that's probably pretty close to what most of us are saying. But just what are "the rules"? I know dating patterns and etiquette (or lack thereof) have changed so much since I was that age. When I was a teen, males were expected to be aggressive, females clueless -- "no" or "stop" were often words uttered with little giggles attached to them --

and then there is the whole question of "underage." We in the US have convinced ourselves that teens are incapable of acting with any responsiblity or informed consent. Do other countries have the same opinion? I get the impression from the European posters that they are scratching their heads wondering what all the fuss is about.
 
WRJames said:
Okay -- that's probably pretty close to what most of us are saying. But just what are "the rules"? I know dating patterns and etiquette (or lack thereof) have changed so much since I was that age. When I was a teen, males were expected to be aggressive, females clueless -- "no" or "stop" were often words uttered with little giggles attached to them --

and then there is the whole question of "underage." We in the US have convinced ourselves that teens are incapable of acting with any responsiblity or informed consent. Do other countries have the same opinion? I get the impression from the European posters that they are scratching their heads wondering what all the fuss is about.
Click to expand...

From my viewpoint in the UK - teenagers will experiment with sex because it is part of the nature of being teenagers.

Teaching them to think about using a condom every time is hard enough. Teaching them not to experiment is almost impossible. Teaching them nothing is asking for STDs to become an epidemic and there will be more unwanted pregnancies.

The UK government is currently running a TV campaign which shows the same scenario with two different endings - in one they use a condom and everyone is happy; in the other they don't - he is shunned by his mates and she is worried sick. At the moment it seems to be having an impact.

Og
 
We can argue the ethics and morals of teenage sexuality for the rest of eternity, and we still won't agree. Statistics over time have proven that abstinence based programs are not effective. Teenage brains are not the same as adult brains, and they do not process information the same. All important... but this is basically what your (and my) teenager hears: "blah blah blah, blah blah, blah blah blah."

You do the best you can, but the decisions are still theirs.

I make sure my children have condoms, and yes, any teenager that comes to my house and wants condoms, gets them. Why?

To loosely quote Mary Jo Shively..."because we are not just trying to prevent pregnancies here... we are trying to prevent death."
 
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