Bruce Springsteen cancels show

[Boxlicker101]

You think they had to be at war to be doing heinously fucked up shit in the name of Christ?

LOL like I said you need to read a history book on the subject one of these days.

Christians had no problem turning a child inside out in arguably some of most brutal tortures ever created or just set on fire because their mentally ill parent was 'in league with the devil!!' and that was common.

If you really were a heretic? Oh wow....we are back to Christians making the Muslims seem kind and loving by comparison.

Sorry Box, the dark ages in Europe are one of the most torture filled blood soaked periods in recorded history and it was all in the name of Christ.

Like I said, you can argue Christians at large are better today......but you're demonstrably wrong trying to make the same argument for the dark ages.



Why because she doesn't want to live under Christian rule?

Without defending anybody, Christians have, historically, been less violent and brutal than Muslims. I have nothing good to say about either.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Without defending anybody, Christians have, historically, been less violent and brutal than Muslims. I have nothing good to say about either.

Recent/modern history yes....you can make that argument.

Going more than 150 years or so back?

You're either totally historically ignorant or wearing rose colored glasses, white Christian Republican FOX Kool-Aid chugging edition.

 

[Real_American12]

Why because she doesn't want to live under Christian rule?

America is not a Christian theocracy. We have separation of church and state, we have secular laws.

Going more than 150 years or so back?

Do a comparison century by century.

So starting in the 21st century AD, and going back to the start of Islam in the 6th century AD or back to the start of Christianity in the 1st century AD or back to the start of Judaism in the 15th century BC.

Islam started out more violent and brutal, and has not changed unlike Christianity and Judaism which are much less violent than in the past.

Also most of the violence is not due to the text and teachings unlike Islam were it is from their holy book.

 

[BotanyBoy]

America is not a Christian theocracy. We have separation of church and state,

I never said otherwise. What is your point?

we have secular laws.

We TRY to have secular laws, large segments of the Right wing 'conservatives' seek to use their religion as a legal argument for oppressive bullshit laws all the time.

 

[Real_American12]

I never said otherwise. What is your point?

Then what did you mean by "Christian rule", if not implying a Christian theocracy?

We TRY to have secular laws, large segments of the Right wing 'conservatives' seek to use their religion as a legal argument for oppressive bullshit laws all the time.

Sure some of the laws they want passed are based on their religion, but even secular laws have origins in Christian teachings.

Murder is against the Ten Commandments. The point is not whether the la is based in the Bible or not, but whether the law is right or wrong.

Laws against: theft, rape, trespassing, vandalism, fraud, murder, kidnapping, harassment, defamation, etc, are good laws.

Laws against: sodomy, child labor, low wages, discriminating, hate speech, what you can eat, are bad laws.

A law saying a child can't work, or an employer and employee can't negotiate their own wage agreement, or that a person can't drink raw milk or smoke marijuana, or turn away a black or gay customer from their store, or use words some might find offensive, or fuck your sex partner in the ass, all of those laws are bad whether pushed by the Religious Right, the Progressive Left, Muslims, Feminists, Communists, etc.

They are against the American legal tradition of Common Law, small government, individual sovereignty, and liberty.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Then what did you mean by "Christian rule", if not implying a Christian theocracy?

When people try to create intrusive laws that restrict the freedom of people to chose how they wish to live based upon religious beliefs and or try to use their religion as a legal argument.

For example...blue laws are an example of this theocratic Christian tyranny.

Anti prostitution/sodomy/pornography laws....all pretty much hinge on Jesus hates perverts and so should we.

No reason why consenting adults shouldn't be allowed to engage in whatever activities private or commercial that they want. Jesus shouldn't get a legal say so in the matter but he does. That's going away slowly but surely though sending Republicans to the fucking moon every time too.

Sure some of the laws they want passed are based on their religion, but even secular laws have origins in Christian teachings.

No they really don't, Christians just like to pretend they do kinda like they tried to pretend they were the originators of all human pairbonding rituals and thus get to define marriage for everyone else. Thankfully our secularism has allowed us to pretty much destroy that notion SCOTUS case after SCOTUS case....

 

[Real_American12]

Anti prostitution/sodomy/pornography laws....all pretty much hinge on Jesus hates perverts and so should we.

And now you have modern feminists and progressives who want the same law just for different reasons.

No reason why consenting adults shouldn't be allowed to engage in whatever activities private or commercial that they want. Jesus shouldn't get a legal say so in the matter but he does. That's going away slowly but surely though sending Republicans to the fucking moon every time too.

The same could be said of Liberals and their own Tooth Fairies, like "systemic racism", "institutionalized oppression", etc. The Left doesn't believe in "consenting adults should be allowed to engage in whatever activities private or commercial" that's why they have all these insane ideas about labor laws, rape laws, minimum wage laws, etc.

No they really don't, Christians just like to pretend they do kinda like they tried to pretend they were the originators of all human pairbonding rituals and thus get to define marriage for everyone else. Thankfully our secularism has allowed us to pretty much destroy that notion SCOTUS case after SCOTUS case....

I was talking mainly about laws against theft, murder, etc.

Also, the only reason that government defines marriage is because government rewards marriage, if you don't want them defining it then you shouldn't want them involved at all.

Which means you don't believe in marriage license from the State?

I think marriage is a contract between two or more people, and if they want to include their church or their chosen deity that's up to them.

I think government should be completely out of marriage, except for the courts that oversee divorces, which should be covered under the contracts signed by the individuals entering into marriage... there shouldn't be any laws about divorce, and alimony, child support, etc.

 

[BotanyBoy]

The same could be said of Liberals and their own Tooth Fairies,

Yea but they don't usually back their legal pushes with "because god"....that makes it a non theocratic argument and thus not part of the current conversation topic.

In fact laws 'because god' (theocratic tyranny) are almost entirely found on the right side of the American political spectrum.

I was talking mainly about laws against theft, murder, etc.

Yea those aren't Christian laws, Christians just like to think they are.

You don't have any proof that they are and there is a fuck ton of evidence that civilizations around the world thousands of years before anything even remotely related to Christianity was around had laws against things like murder, theft, vandalism, rape and assault.

Also, the only reason that government defines marriage is because government rewards marriage, if you don't want them defining it then you shouldn't want them involved at all.

Uh hua and the right wing Christians who want the government defining it their way are.......*drum roll*.......Theocratic tyrants!!!

 

[phrodeau]

So a bisexual interracial threesome would be fine for a marriage? Could be a popular option.

 

[Real_American12]

Yea but they don't usually back their legal pushes with "because god"....that makes it a non theocratic argument and thus not part of the current conversation topic.

Doesn't matter, it's the same problem.

Saying because Jesus or because White Patriarchy are still invalid and incompatible with secular law and individual liberty.

In fact laws 'because god' (theocratic tyranny) are almost entirely found on the right side of the American political spectrum.

You're making a false argument.

Just because they Left's not using an official religion doesn't make their cult like dogma any less theocratic.

Yea those aren't Christian laws, Christians just like to think they are.

Tell that to the Bible.

You don't have any proof that they are and there is a fuck ton of evidence that civilizations around the world thousands of years before anything even remotely related to Christianity was around had laws against things like murder, theft, vandalism, rape and assault.

Oh and was that was most influential to the Founding Fathers or to most Americans at the time of the Revolution? No, it was the Bible.

Uh hua and the right wing Christians who want the government defining it their way are.......*drum roll*.......Theocratic tyrants!!!

And the Left Wingers are just as tyrannical.

If you want liberty get government out of marriage completely, don't just bitch about the Right because you don't like their religion.

So a bisexual interracial threesome would be fine for a marriage? Could be a popular option.

I don't personally support interracial sex, and am absolutely opposed to interracial breeding, and I don't think a non-nuclear marriage is good for the family unit or moral health of the nation.

But from a liberty stand-point, if two black men, a white woman, three yellow women and a white man want to be 'married' and live together, have children, share financial matters, have visitation at the hospital, etc. than they should have that freedom.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Doesn't matter, it's the same problem.

Saying because Jesus or because White Patriarchy are still invalid and incompatible with secular law and individual liberty.

Tell that to the Bible.

No it's not, because Jesus is make believe and White Patriarchy is a demonstrable fact.

The Bible is of no legal authority, was written by a bunch of idiots who thought the world was flat and the center of the universe and can go fuck itself.

Oh and was that was most influential to the Founding Fathers or to most Americans at the time of the Revolution? No, it was the Bible.

That doesn't prove those laws have their origins in Christianity nor does that make Christianity any sort of legal authority.

And the Left Wingers are just as tyrannical.

True, but not in the name of make believe gods.

If you want liberty get government out of marriage completely, don't just bitch about the Right because you don't like their religion.

That's not possible and I don't bitch about the right because I don't like their religion, I bitch because they try to legally force their religion upon me.

 

[Real_American12]

No it's not, because Jesus is make believe and White Patriarchy is a demonstrable fact.

Liberal fantasy.

The Bible is of no legal authority, was written by a bunch of idiots who thought the world was flat and the center of the universe and can go fuck itself.

And yet is still the source of laws against murder, theft, etc.

You may hate that Christianity is such a major factor in European history/culture and therefore American history/culture... but reality does not care of your feelings.

That doesn't prove those laws have their origins in Christianity nor does that make Christianity any sort of legal authority.

If you are arguing that there was no connection to our history and culture, our morals and principles that were greatly influenced by the Bible and the Church... you're a fool.

True, but not in the name of make believe gods.

Their dogma and cult beliefs matter none, they are the same in their outcome as the religious Right.

That's not possible and I don't bitch about the right because I don't like their religion, I bitch because they try to legally force their religion upon me.

No different than the Left forcing their ideology and dogma on everyone else.

Either you support liberty and freedom or you don't... All you're doing is arguing over who's collar and chain you'd like to wear.

 

[BotanyBoy]

And yet is still the source of laws against murder, theft, etc.

Christian fundamentalist fantasy....

Their dogma and cult beliefs matter none, they are the same in their outcome as the religious Right.

No different than the Left forcing their ideology and dogma on everyone else.

Yes they do matter and yes it is different.

Because we don't have a constitutional amendment separating political thoughs outside of what Real_American12/conservatives want from state.

But we do have one seperating church and state.

Either you support liberty and freedom or you don't... All you're doing is arguing over who's collar and chain you'd like to wear.

Liberty and freedom of thought sure, not liberty and freedom for Christians to force their religion on me.

No that's what you wish the argument was over.

 

[oggbashan]

First laws against Murder etc predate Christianity

The Code of Ur-Nammu circa 2100-2150 BC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

 

[Real_American12]

Christian fundamentalist fantasy....

You can wish it to be true, but history tells you otherwise.

Yes they do matter and yes it is different.

There isn't.

Because we don't have a constitutional amendment separating political thoughs outside of what Real_American12/conservatives want from state.

But we do have one seperating church and state.

Progressiveness is the new religion of the Left.

Liberty and freedom of thought sure, not liberty and freedom for Christians to force their religion on me.

No that's what you wish the argument was over.[/QUOTE]So you're fine with tyranny as long as it's the Left's tyranny.

That's why you're losing this debate.

The Code of Ur-Nammu circa 2100-2150 BC:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Ur-Nammu

What's your point?

European and American history, culture, ethics/morals, society were heavily influenced by the Bible and the Church, not by some ancient cultures most people were completely unaware of.

 

[BotanyBoy]

You can wish it to be true, but history tells you otherwise.

European and American history, culture, ethics/morals, society were heavily influenced by the Bible and the Church, not by some ancient cultures most people were completely unaware of.

Revisionist Christian history maybe.....real history says otherwise.

And where did the Bible/Church get it from?

All those other ancient cultures who were doing it first.

Those laws pre-date Christianity by a large margin....

So you're fine with tyranny as long as it's the Left's tyranny.

That's why you're losing this debate.

I didn't say that I said I'm against the religious tyranny of the right.

How can I be losing a debate I'm not involved in and you fabricated entirely?

 

[Real_American12]

Revisionist Christian history maybe.....real history says otherwise.

It's history whether you like it or not.

And where did the Bible/Church get it from?

All those other ancient cultures who were doing it first.

Those laws pre-date Christianity by a large margin....

And they were all well forgotten, those values were spread through Christianity.

I didn't say that I said I'm against the religious tyranny of the right.

But you don't argue against the tyranny of the left.

How can I be losing a debate I'm not involved in and you fabricated entirely?

Typical progressive, you've lost and you can't handle it.

 

[BotanyBoy]

It's history whether you like it or not.

No it's a fantasy made up by theocratic right wingers.

And they were all well forgotten, those values were spread through Christianity.

No they aren't well forgotten they are well documented.

You claimed origin, not distribution.....keep running around with your goalpost, it's ok no one will notice

But you don't argue against the tyranny of the left.

They aren't highly theocratic, which was the topic of discussion.

If you want to change topics you should state as much instead of ascribing me a position and declaring victory.

Typical progressive, you've lost and you can't handle it.

How can I lose an argument I'm not engaged in?

You're having imaginary arguments with me to declare victory...you might want to talk to your doctor about that, if you can afford a doctor.

 

[Real_American12]

No it's a fantasy made up by theocratic right wingers.

Is the lie perpetuated by authoritarian left wingers.

No they aren't well forgotten they are well documented.

So you think civilizations from 3,000+ years BC had more impact on the culture and values of 15th century Europe and 18th century America?

You claimed origin, not distribution.....keep running around with your goalpost, it's ok no one will notice

Try and keep up, they didn't get it from those ancient civilizations, they got it from Christianity.

You're stupidity is painful.

They aren't highly theocratic, which was the topic of discussion.

Yes they are, they follow their ideology like a religion.

If you want to change topics you should state as much instead of ascribing me a position and declaring victory.

The topic hasn't changed, you've lost on your own.

How can I lose an argument I'm not engaged in?

You are engaged, you just don't like losing.

You're having imaginary arguments with me to declare victory...you might want to talk to your doctor about that, if you can afford a doctor.

No, it's you that needs to see a doctor, your case of liberalism has become terminal.

 

[BotanyBoy]

So you think civilizations from 3,000+ years BC had more impact on the culture and values of 15th century Europe and 18th century America?

Yea, they did those laws first.

Try and keep up, they didn't get it from those ancient civilizations, they got it from Christianity.

Who got it from the ancient civilizations.

Try to keep up indeed.

Yes they are, they follow their ideology like a religion.

Ideology =/= theology....sorry, not the same and there aren't laws against it.

You are engaged, you just don't like losing.

Your ascription is not anymore true by saying that.

 

[Real_American12]

Yea, they did those laws first.

So?

It was Christianity that spread them, not some civilization, long dead and lost to history.

Who got it from the ancient civilizations.

One simply having it first doesn't mean that Christians got it from them.

And even if Christians did get it from them, it is Christianity that spread them.

Ideology =/= theology....sorry, not the same and there aren't laws against it.

You are a dishonest person.

You're arguing against the Right wanting to base laws on their religious beliefs and are fine with the Left doing the same based on their own ideology.

The Left does not want secular law based on morals, rational thought, or common sense.

They are no different than Muslims pushing their religious law.

Your ascription is not anymore true by saying that.

It is true independent of me saying that.

 

[Real_American12]

Bruce Springsteen cancels show because of North Carolina anti-LGBTQ law

This sums up the entire issue pretty well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUJgbWrM64

 

[BotanyBoy]

So?

It was Christianity that spread them, not some civilization, long dead and lost to history.

One simply having it first doesn't mean that Christians got it from them.

You said origin, not spread.

And they aren't lost to history they are still around.

And yea it kinda does.

You're arguing against the Right wanting to base laws on their religious beliefs

Because we have laws against that.

and are fine with the Left doing the same based on their own ideology.

It's not the same because political theory =/= religion.

No matter how bad you wish it did.

 

[Real_American12]

You said origin, not spread.

Same thing. They did not get it from those ancient civilizations, they got it from Christianity.

Because we have laws against that.

No we don't, we have a separation of church and state, that doesn't stop them from trying to pass law based on morals from the Bible.

It stops them from passing laws like not having false idols and graven images.

It's not the same because political theory =/= religion.

Ideology and religion are the same.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Same thing.

No, words mean things and you don't just get to change their definitions to whatever you want whenever the suit you.

They did not get it from those ancient civilizations, they got it from Christianity.

Who got it from ancient civilizations....the origins of those laws are not Christian.

No we don't, we have a separation of church and state, that doesn't stop them from trying to pass law based on morals from the Bible.

If there is no other argument other than "Because Bible/God/Jesus etc" it absolutely does.

Ideology and religion are the same.

Maybe to you but legally they are not because once again words mean things, your argument is invalid.