CALLING ALL BRAINIACS: A Conundrum

Damon Runyon does not talk like Squiggy and Lenny. He tells us his stories in a mimicry of the voices of the people he writes about.

Squiggy and Lenny were not self aware, (and neither are many of Runyons characters) they held a very limited world view that did not include other people's needs or cares. (and neither do many of Runyon's characters.)

We often don't care at all about Runyon's characters-- nor can we care much about Squiggy and Lenny. We do get to know and care about about Runyon's main character, which is the guy that's telling us the stories in the first place. That guy is self-aware, compassionate, observational, acute, and sometimes uplifting.

I will say that your observation that men often are lewd without being descriptive is a very good one. It's not so true any longer, what with the internet and stuff.

BTW, Have you ever noticed that the men who really detest women-- and the women who really hate men, like totally hate them-- are heterosexual? That's so sad.

Stella, I knew I loved you, but Damon Runyon, be still my heart *smile*. I am one of the few people under about 75 who know Runyon and loved his stories, they were often my good night stories as a kid......Runyon was often accused of gold plating villains, because so many of his characters were based on real people, some of whom were not so nice. The irony of Runyon is that these tough, some nasty people, can do the right thing or good things, often without knowing it, while the good people, especially the bankers and such, don't.....

My favorite? Hottest guy in the world, after Big Jules shoots the gorilla that has taken a baby and is on top of a building, that saves the babies life, and he find out it is his hated cop nemesis baby, tells him "well, copper, it wasn't so easy, and I am not surprised to find out he is your kid, for to tell the truth, I have a had time telling the baby from the monk"
 
I'm attracted to men who can hold their own. I naturally gravitate to humour and a quick wit, and with that usually comes intelligence. I would much prefer to be able to have a conversation with a man than be sitting wishing he would just shut his mouth.

As my brother exclaimed when he was divorced his not so bright model ex-wife and started dating someone new... "She can actually talk back."

What about a sense of humor?
 
My friend STELLA recommended that I read Damon Runyon's stories, and appended her referral with an observation that his style makes poor erotica, if any.

So I read some of his stories, and saw the problem: Damon Runyon wrote like real guys speak. Rude, crude, and lewd, without description. When women writers depict male characters the characters all come across like theyre Richard Chamberlain, whereas most guys talk like Lenny & Squiggy or Dad. "Uh huh, uh huh, jeez thats a toughie, better ask your mother what she thinks."

So here's my question:

If women prefer male characters in books and on tv to talk like Richard Chamberlain, howcome women flee from real men who talk like old Richard?

I will admit that I thought about this for a while, just to make sure that was I was thinking wasn't a knee jerk reaction to your statement. But I don't know that I prefer male characters in books and on TV to talk like Richard Chamberlain (although I do know have images of Father de Bricassart running through my head so thank you for that. [laughs]) But it is because I understand the smoke and mirrors of TV and movies. I know that men don't talk like that. That those are scripts.

That being said, are there some men who speak like that? A few, I suppose. Do I run from them? Yep. I don't think they are genuine. I am skeptical and I see it as a ploy.

It's just like I can read all day about unicorns. I can even sigh and wish I had one. But if a one shows up in my front yard, my first thought is that it is a horse with a horn glued on its head.

Now I will say that Lit, kind of fucks with this. I think that there are men here who are indeed able to express their thoughts and emotions in a "Richard Chamberlain" type fashion. Probably more so here than anywhere else. but I just don't know if that overcomes the initial skepticism or step back reaction. Does that make sense?
 
I will post my answer even though I hardly self-identify as a brainiac. :) (Nerd? Yep! Synonymous? Maybe...)

This seems like another incident of generalizing that all women like the same traits in men. I swoon for the articulate, intelligent men (especially those who look like Dr. Kildare). If a man has poor grammar or speaks neanderthal, I would not even give him a second's consideration regardless of his appearance.

But the poor grammar is also a generalization.

Content of speech does not always give a clear indication of the mind behind it.

Back in school I tested very high and have an above average IQ. Although I do not have a lot of formal education I am well read and have been a member of "Toastmasters" a public speaking club.

However, I grew up in a poor neighborhood and have never tried to lose my oh. so eloquent diction.

Bottom line just because a guy might say "I don't got nothin'" does not mean he is an idiot.
 
But the poor grammar is also a generalization.

Content of speech does not always give a clear indication of the mind behind it.

Back in school I tested very high and have an above average IQ. Although I do not have a lot of formal education I am well read and have been a member of "Toastmasters" a public speaking club.

However, I grew up in a poor neighborhood and have never tried to lose my oh. so eloquent diction.

Bottom line just because a guy might say "I don't got nothin'" does not mean he is an idiot.

I am sorry but I have to disagree. People who read and who are intelligent, such as yourself, will have good grammar. Not everyone's grammar is perfect. It never will be.

Colloquial speech patterns is one thing, but they do not hide intelligence. Poor, careless grammar is another. By reading, a semi-intelligent individual will pick up good grammar, logical sentence structure and coherent speaking dynamic. There's a reason why, when asked how to write a good essay or how to have good grammar (whether its through verbal or written communication) the first suggestion is "read read read".

Education is a formality- some of the most intelligent human beings I've had the pleasure of meeting had the equivalent of associate degrees, and like you, we're very well-read. They may not have been formally polished, but they spoke grammatically correctly, with an infusion of their local patois and speech patterns.

But, that's just in my experience. YOur kilometrage may vary. :)
 
I will admit that I thought about this for a while, just to make sure that was I was thinking wasn't a knee jerk reaction to your statement. But I don't know that I prefer male characters in books and on TV to talk like Richard Chamberlain (although I do know have images of Father de Bricassart running through my head so thank you for that. [laughs]) But it is because I understand the smoke and mirrors of TV and movies. I know that men don't talk like that. That those are scripts.

That being said, are there some men who speak like that? A few, I suppose. Do I run from them? Yep. I don't think they are genuine. I am skeptical and I see it as a ploy.

It's just like I can read all day about unicorns. I can even sigh and wish I had one. But if a one shows up in my front yard, my first thought is that it is a horse with a horn glued on its head.

Now I will say that Lit, kind of fucks with this. I think that there are men here who are indeed able to express their thoughts and emotions in a "Richard Chamberlain" type fashion. Probably more so here than anywhere else. but I just don't know if that overcomes the initial skepticism or step back reaction. Does that make sense?

Makes good sense. I associate with all kinds of men, and none talk like the guys on soap operas or the guys in romance novels. Plus women dont marry men who talk like soap opera heroes, cuz real guys dont talk that way. I'm not dissing articulate men, I'm wondering why women like men who talk prissy.
 
I am sorry but I have to disagree. People who read and who are intelligent, such as yourself, will have good grammar. Not everyone's grammar is perfect. It never will be.

Colloquial speech patterns is one thing, but they do not hide intelligence. Poor, careless grammar is another. By reading, a semi-intelligent individual will pick up good grammar, logical sentence structure and coherent speaking dynamic. There's a reason why, when asked how to write a good essay or how to have good grammar (whether its through verbal or written communication) the first suggestion is "read read read".

Education is a formality- some of the most intelligent human beings I've had the pleasure of meeting had the equivalent of associate degrees, and like you, we're very well-read. They may not have been formally polished, but they spoke grammatically correctly, with an infusion of their local patois and speech patterns.

But, that's just in my experience. YOur kilometrage may vary. :)

What it boils down to is an "air" in work when I'm in the office, I speak just fine. Same if I'm giving a presentation or dealing with a customer.

But when I am out and I am relaxing I will default to what is "comfortable" as far as my speech pattern goes.

I will use expression like "Not for nothin" and my wife has told me I have turned "What are you" into the word "Whaddaya?"

End of the day that's me. You can put down to the old "You can take the kid out of the street, but..."

But I don't pretend to be anything I'm not. Trust me when my wife drags me to gatherings for her business I am quite eloquent. But I refuse to act like that 24/7.

If someone passes on me for my "language" oh well.

What really kills me is in the romances even the "bad boys" speak well.

Got news for you the bad boys don't speak like Chamberlain and know what? The ladies don't mind in the least.
 
Are you asking why women flee from men who talk like Richard, or are you asking why women flee from you, and you happen to talk like Richard, because there's a big difference, and it makes the answer much easier.
 
But the poor grammar is also a generalization.

Content of speech does not always give a clear indication of the mind behind it.

Back in school I tested very high and have an above average IQ. Although I do not have a lot of formal education I am well read and have been a member of "Toastmasters" a public speaking club.

However, I grew up in a poor neighborhood and have never tried to lose my oh. so eloquent diction.

Bottom line just because a guy might say "I don't got nothin'" does not mean he is an idiot.

Relax. Youre pretty smart. And IQ doesnt mean much. Think about how screwed up America is, and think about who runs the country...Harvard Brainiacs. I truky believe that a high IQ measures a special form of retardation NOT intelligence, becuz I've never met anyone with a really high IQ who wasnt fucked up like Rainman. Even an average IQ takes people far and should never be dissed. So chill.
 
I'm attracted to men who can hold their own. I naturally gravitate to humour and a quick wit, and with that usually comes intelligence.

So, that 'splains the Shine/Pmman sizzle goin' on. ;);)

Was Richard Chamberlain Captain Von Trapp in The Sound of Music, or am I mixing my men?

You're mixing your men. Von Trapp was portrayed by Christopher Plummer. Although, Plummer also came out in the Thornbirds. He was an archbishop or something like that.
 
Are you asking why women flee from men who talk like Richard, or are you asking why women flee from you, and you happen to talk like Richard, because there's a big difference, and it makes the answer much easier.

If youre speaking to me, women who know me IRL dont flee, mostly cuz I have a bedroom voice, and I dont talk much in person. Mostly I listen to women, encourage them where they need encouraging, and dont diss or discount them. And I'm flirty IRL, and funny. Here I think out loud and piss everyone off. IRL you cant hear me think.
 
Was Richard Chamberlain Captain Von Trapp in The Sound of Music, or am I mixing my men?

Christopher Plummer was Captain Von Trapp. He has a great voice, though my favorite role of his was the Klingon General in "Star Trek VI", quoting Shakespeare.
 
You should really start a thread to tell us all about ourselves. :D

I found a TIME article from 1935 I wanted to discuss. Back then some perfessers interviewed 1000s of American women and determined that 50% of them felt alone, and 25% felt isolated. So I'm curious to learn if women still feel disconnected from human intimacy. Intimacy isnt fucking, its bonding with others so you feel cherished and wanted etc.
 
But when I am out and I am relaxing I will default to what is "comfortable" as far as my speech pattern goes.

Interesting. My "Southern", as I call it, usually only comes out when I'm tired or I'm pissed off.

Sometimes, I'll use a deliberately use a colloquialism to emphasis a point, but I'm more likely to use them when writing and I want to convey a certain tone or mood.
 
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I found a TIME article from 1935 I wanted to discuss. Back then some perfessers interviewed 1000s of American women and determined that 50% of them felt alone, and 25% felt isolated. So I'm curious to learn if women still feel disconnected from human intimacy. Intimacy isnt fucking, its bonding with others so you feel cherished and wanted etc.

With their spouses? Or with other people, in general?

I can't say I relate to the original study. I grew up in a very tight knit family. As a kid, I remember other kids bitching about having to go and visit their grandparents. I never understood because I LOVED visiting my grandparents. I still do. I'm blessed to still have three of them.

As for my relationship with my husband? I have to say I feel pretty loved, as well. We've had our tough times, but I think that's to be expected. No one's perfect.
 
Christopher Plummer was Captain Von Trapp. He has a great voice, though my favorite role of his was the Klingon General in "Star Trek VI", quoting Shakespeare.

*nods*

Plummer could make the phone book sound sexy!
 
Makes good sense. I associate with all kinds of men, and none talk like the guys on soap operas or the guys in romance novels. Plus women dont marry men who talk like soap opera heroes, cuz real guys dont talk that way. I'm not dissing articulate men, I'm wondering why women like men who talk prissy.

HA!

I don't think it's that they like men who talk "prissy" but in romance novels and soap operas and such, men are verbose and able to articulate what they are feeling. In a generalized statement about men (note the use of the word generalized) most men tend to keep their emotions to themselves.

For example, I always know when hubby is upset not because he comes and tells me, but because he will go out and start fixing something. And I have had to explain this to my family who at first were a little taken aback that when we have family drama he excuses himself and starts messing with the cars or the yard. But that is his way of dealing with emotion and showing how he cares.

Would I like for him to come and say "I am upset because ..."? God,YES! Sometimes it would make it soooo much easier. But that is not his way and again I am saying in a generalized and completely stereotypical fashion, I think that is the way of most men.

So when there is a man that we don't have to "interpret", who will openly discuss what he is feeling. Well it is a welcome relief. Does that make sense?

On a side note, there is (or at least there was at one point) an erotica line being started that was written from the male perspective and one of the defining attributes was the the male character needed to speak and act like a "real man" not the way women "wanted men to talk and act". I had to laugh at that.
 
What it boils down to is an "air" in work when I'm in the office, I speak just fine. Same if I'm giving a presentation or dealing with a customer.

But when I am out and I am relaxing I will default to what is "comfortable" as far as my speech pattern goes.

I will use expression like "Not for nothin" and my wife has told me I have turned "What are you" into the word "Whaddaya?"

End of the day that's me. You can put down to the old "You can take the kid out of the street, but..."

But I don't pretend to be anything I'm not. Trust me when my wife drags me to gatherings for her business I am quite eloquent. But I refuse to act like that 24/7.

If someone passes on me for my "language" oh well.

What really kills me is in the romances even the "bad boys" speak well.

Got news for you the bad boys don't speak like Chamberlain and know what? The ladies don't mind in the least.

I hope you know that I meant absolutely no disrespect :rose:. It's merely an observation that a)intelligence has nothing to do with education and b) that people who are very well-read tend to have good grammar. The examples that you have brought up is more linguistic patterns than grammar. It's almost a separate dialect.

However, I don't think I've emphasised this enough, this is in my observation, and I should note that my observations is limited to three (albeit very separate) geographical locations.

Ah shit! I think I better shut up before I choke on my foot even further :rose:

(and for what it's worth, when I'm pissed or exhausted, then my accent and terrible English comes out. Apparently, it's cute:rolleyes:)


Christopher Plummer was Captain Von Trapp. He has a great voice, though my favorite role of his was the Klingon General in "Star Trek VI", quoting Shakespeare.

True story about Christopher Plummer. I was working at a theatre that he was perform/do something (I wasn't involved in the show) and all personnel had to sign a waiver that we were NOT to bring up the Sound of Music (or Sound of Mucus as he called it) or anything remotely related or get docked.

I never ever wanted to hum "Edelweiss" more than when I was working backstage and he was in the dressing room :D.
 
Problem with asking women here is Litizen women are an atypical self-selecting population.

For women here to protest though that they have NO IDEA that more women fit your generalization than not is disingenuous.

Of course none of our fair litizens women have had a one night stand with a monosylabic conversationalist, but surly they have observed their sisters, cousins, and co-workers rewarding the illitetate in bar parking lots.

I once heard an interesting take on why women have evolved a drive to fuck philandering assholes...men (in theory) can spread their genes as far as their audacity allows...women get only as many chances as they can bear choldren.

By fucking assholes they increase the odds they will have sons that are sucessfull ar bedding lots of women thereby spreading moms genes.
 
I hope you know that I meant absolutely no disrespect :rose:. It's merely an observation that a)intelligence has nothing to do with education and b) that people who are very well-read tend to have good grammar. The examples that you have brought up is more linguistic patterns than grammar. It's almost a separate dialect.

However, I don't think I've emphasised this enough, this is in my observation, and I should note that my observations is limited to three (albeit very separate) geographical locations.

Ah shit! I think I better shut up before I choke on my foot even further :rose:

(and for what it's worth, when I'm pissed or exhausted, then my accent and terrible English comes out. Apparently, it's cute:rolleyes:)




True story about Christopher Plummer. I was working at a theatre that he was perform/do something (I wasn't involved in the show) and all personnel had to sign a waiver that we were NOT to bring up the Sound of Music (or Sound of Mucus as he called it) or anything remotely related or get docked.

I never ever wanted to hum "Edelweiss" more than when I was working backstage and he was in the dressing room :D.

Kurt Vonnegut said something to the effect that the formally educated show disdain for the rest of us because we obtained our ignorance so cheaply.


Theres a book out recently pointing out several high acheiving geniuses...alll of whom had little education bur all were voracious readers.

Reading has more to do with vocabulary than any other input.
 
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