Columbus Day

[Jagged]

Balls I always have....and I help many other people that aren't of my culture because it is the right thing. I am just pointing out things aren't as simple as you tried to paint them....

 

[cloudy]

Balls I always have....and I help many other people that aren't of my culture because it is the right thing. I am just pointing out things aren't as simple as you tried to paint them....

Do yourself a favor...don't assume you know anything about me.

You weren't "pointing out" anything, you were namecalling, pure and simple. S'okay, if that's all you got, I feel for you.

 

[rcfstl]

Do yourself a favor...don't assume you know anything about me.

Arent you making the assumptions?

Lumping every European as the enemy, using words like "you" and all Native Americans as good guys with words like "we".

A for all you know I could a Salish Tribal Elder.

 

[cloudy]

Arent you making the assumptions?

Lumping every European as the enemy, using words like "you" and all Native Americans as good guys with words like "we".

A for all you know I could a Salish Tribal Elder.

I haven't called anyone "the enemy." Please, go back and see where I called anyone an enemy.

Salish, huh? Okay, I'll play: what clan? who are your people?

awfully far from home, aren't you?

edited to add: look, I'm really trying hard not to be rude. I don't know you, and at this point I don't think I want to, to be honest.

I posted an article, that said very eloquently what I think about Columbus Day, but did not add any of my own comments until a couple of people felt compelled to come here and attack me and mine. You, in particular, I've never even seen on the boards until now. Are you having fun yet?

 

[Jagged]

No......I tried to clear something up and make a point. You didn't like it and took the offensive. I never claimed to know it all......you don't get to claim the truth though.

 

[cloudy]

No......I tried to clear something up and make a point. You didn't like it and took the offensive. I never claimed to know it all......you don't get to claim the truth though.

What part of the article I posted is untrue, Jagged? Please tell me.

Namecalling: I'm "just" a complainer. Said with no knowledge of me whatsoever.

 

[yui]

Richard, I've always liked you, but I would just like to say I admire the grace with which you've comported yourself on this thread. You've the sort of class that others would do well to emulate.

Cloudy, you are a warrior of the finest caliber. It is not as if, in America, that the "white men" suffered the decimation of their culture; there can be no human justification for what happened, no matter how many words they throw at you.

Luck,

Yui

 

[cloudy]

Richard, I've always liked you, but I would just like to say I admire the grace with which you've comported yourself on this thread. You've the sort of class that others would do well to emulate.

Cloudy, you are a warrior of the finest caliber. It is not as if, in America, that the "white men" suffered the decimation of their culture; there can be no human justification for what happened, no matter how many words they throw at you.

Luck,

Yui

Thanks, babe.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Crusade in Albi was 1200's the Thirty Year Wars was early to mid 1600's. Both are examples of Europeans fighting without any rules, sacking towns and killing everyone, Christians all.

Do you have a contiguous example of eurpopeans wiping out other europeans at the time or prior, where you can't sight religious intoleration as the source? Roughtly early 1500's? I don't mean to belittle your points, but considering the way warfare and tactics advance comparrisons to warfare 100 years prior or afterwards don't hold much relevance.

The franco prussian war of 1870-71 bears little resemblance to the vietnam conflict in 1970-71.

About the only time period where you can compare tactics across time spans is the roman empire, since it was the same army in basic form that was doing the fighting at Cannae in 216 and with Ceasar when he bested vercongetorix (sp) in about 60-50bce?

 

[rcfstl]

I haven't called anyone "the enemy." Please, go back and see where I called anyone an enemy.

Salish, huh? Okay, I'll play: what clan? who are your people?

It would take me five minutes to pull some clan name off the internet. And you assume that every Native American knows his history. Hell I am from Elmo Montana and my dads was the President of the Flathead Salish Community College in Polson Montana.

Got your name on the BIA Class Action Suit yet? Gonna make us a mint off those White Fuckers.

I could say that and I know enough to most likely convince you.

Anyone one can do the dance. Yes it was a horrible thing but I have not killed an Native Americans and I have respect for the culture. You make it seem like every tribe was all hugs and kisses and the white man brought all evil here and that is straight up bullshit

 

[R. Richard]

Richard, I've always liked you, but I would just like to say I admire the grace with which you've comported yourself on this thread. You've the sort of class that others would do well to emulate.

Cloudy, you are a warrior of the finest caliber. It is not as if, in America, that the "white men" suffered the decimation of their culture; there can be no human justification for what happened, no matter how many words they throw at you.

Luck,

Yui

Yui, if I impressed a lady of your caliber, I have dome well indeed!

 

[rcfstl]

Do you have a contiguous example of eurpopeans wiping out other europeans at the time or prior, where you can't sight religious intoleration as the source? Roughtly early 1500's? I don't mean to belittle your points, but considering the way warfare and tactics advance comparrisons to warfare 100 years prior or afterwards don't hold much relevance.

The franco prussian war of 1870-71 bears little resemblance to the vietnam conflict in 1970-71.

About the only time period where you can compare tactics across time spans is the roman empire, since it was the same army in basic form that was doing the fighting at Cannae in 216 and with Ceasar when he bested vercongetorix (sp) in about 60-50bce?

it is not about tactics it is about motivation and attitude.

and I disagree about Cannae and Caesar, Cannae was a battle, Caeser used fortifications with a mobile field force to defeat the Germans

 

[cloudy]

It would take me five minutes to pull some clan name off the internet. And you assume that every Native American knows his history. Hell I am from Elmo Montana and my dads was the President of the Flathead Salish Community College in Polson Montana.

Got your name on the BIA Class Action Suit yet? Gonna make us a mint off those White Fuckers.

Nope, and not gonna. I have no interest in any money. I want justice, and for the rest of us to be treated as humans, finally, that's all.

I could say that and I know enough to most likely convince you.

Anyone one can do the dance. Yes it was a horrible thing but I have not killed an Native Americans and I have respect for the culture. You make it seem like every tribe was all hugs and kisses and the white man brought all evil here and that is straight up bullshit

I never said it was all hugs and kisses. My folks weren't all that warlike, to be honest. But there were tribes that were....I realize that.

What you don't realize is that I honestly think the past is the past - that said, it DOES affect the future. Racism still exists, as you and Jagged have so eloquently shown me tonight.

 

[cantdog]

Yes it was a horrible thing but I have not killed an Native Americans and I have respect for the culture. You make it seem like every tribe was all hugs and kisses and the white man brought all evil here and that is straight up bullshit

Yar. Well. Does that make the contribution of Columbus worth celebrating?

 

[TxRad]

a funny thing about history..... it's always written by the winner.....

 

[Colleen Thomas]

it is not about tactics it is about motivation and attitude.

and I disagree about Cannae and Caesar, Cannae was a battle, Caeser used fortifications with a mobile field force to defeat the Germans

Yes it seems I have lowered myself to your level...Europeans made war like they did at home. No different.....like I said. Should have killed the first white men that came to your shores. Fought out how to make better weapons and be vigilant. And please don't try to say that Native Americans (a general term I frankly don't like) are nonviolent living in peace.

this is the ost I responded to. If you are claiming they made war in the same way they did at home, excatly how can you substantiate such a claim and then calim tactics are irrelevant? Exactly how does one wage war without tactical application?

Cannae was a battle. The final defeat of Vercongetorix involved field fortifications, but the battles leading up to it were fought on occasion in the open. And even within their fortifications, the romas used basically the same weapons. Teh gladius changed little, the sheild as well. Not able to go off the top of my head on when the philum came into general use, but roman tactics were the same. Close order, shield to shield, come to grips with the enemy and use the gladius at close quarters to disembowl the enmey.

 

[rcfstl]

Nope, and not gonna. I have no interest in any money. I want justice, and for the rest of us to be treated as humans, finally, that's all.



I never said it was all hugs and kisses. My folks weren't all that warlike, to be honest. But there were tribes that were....I realize that.

What you don't realize is that I honestly think the past is the past - that said, it DOES affect the future. Racism still exists, as you and Jagged have so eloquently shown me tonight.

I really take offense at the term racist. But you can call me what ever you want to.

I know racism against Native Americans exist, I have seen it.

The way the Native Americans have been treated and continue to be treated is shameful and makes me actually sorry to be an American many times.

I have been on and worked many reservations and worked with and for Native Americans.

I have relatives by marriage and by adoption who are Native Americans (Blackfeet, Northern Cheyenne, Atsina and Salish if you must now the tribes)

But my point is and obviously I failed to make it. Columbus did not come here with the intent to ravage and destroy, he and the men who followed him did that yes. Was it a tragedy yes, but it can not be the basis of the hate that seems to come from many Native Americans towards whites.

e

 

[rcfstl]

Yar. Well. Does that make the contribution of Columbus worth celebrating?

Basically no. He was just a sailor who wanted money

 

[cloudy]

I really take offense at the term racist. But you can call me what ever you want to.

I know racism against Native Americans exist, I have seen it.

The way the Native Americans have been treated and continue to be treated is shameful and makes me actually sorry to be an American many times.

I have been on and worked many reservations and worked with and for Native Americans.

I have relatives by marriage and by adoption who are Native Americans (Blackfeet, Northern Cheyenne, Atsina and Salish if you must now the tribes)

But my point is and obviously I failed to make it. Columbus did not come here with the intent to ravage and destroy, he and the men who followed him did that yes. Was it a tragedy yes, but it can not be the basis of the hate that seems to come from many Native Americans towards whites.

e

again, I don't hate whites! I can't hate my own father - I loved him with all my heart.

My whole point is that Columbus shouldn't be celebrated, that's all!

 

[rcfstl]

Yes it seems I have lowered myself to your level...Europeans made war like they did at home. No different.....like I said. Should have killed the first white men that came to your shores. Fought out how to make better weapons and be vigilant. And please don't try to say that Native Americans (a general term I frankly don't like) are nonviolent living in peace.

this is the ost I responded to. If you are claiming they made war in the same way they did at home, excatly how can you substantiate such a claim and then calim tactics are irrelevant? Exactly how does one wage war without tactical application?

Cannae was a battle. The final defeat of Vercongetorix involved field fortifications, but the battles leading up to it were fought on occasion in the open. And even within their fortifications, the romas used basically the same weapons. Teh gladius changed little, the sheild as well. Not able to go off the top of my head on when the philum came into general use, but roman tactics were the same. Close order, shield to shield, come to grips with the enemy and use the gladius at close quarters to disembowl the enmey.

Maybe I am too tired to make any clear point.

And i dont know if I am answering this correctly.

The Europeans fought to win, the killed who ever got in their way and did it with superior weapons and armor.


It was not about religion was the point I was trying to make. It was about greed they came to take what they could from a weaker enemy.

And they had been waging war and every culture has for that reason among others among themselves for centuries.

And Roman tactics were a lot more flexible than just stand together pull out your sword and hack.

 

[rcfstl]

again, I don't hate whites! I can't hate my own father - I loved him with all my heart.

My whole point is that Columbus shouldn't be celebrated, that's all!

Well you can call me your bitch then. I am sorry I agree with your point. He was a piss poor leader and a bad sailor and he should not be celebrated. What came after was ... well I was going to say .... horrible but that does not describe it.

I over reacted to the "We" and "you" and I apologize.

and I do think Leonard Pellitier got railroaded

 

[cloudy]

Well you can call me your bitch then. I am sorry I agree with your point. He was a piss poor leader and a bad sailor and he should not be celebrated. What came after was ... well I was going to say .... horrible but that does not describe it.

I over reacted to the "We" and "you" and I apologize.

and I do think Leonard Pellitier got railroaded

Accepted.

Glad I saw this before I went to bed....I feel better now, thank you.

 

[yui]

Well you can call me your bitch then. I am sorry I agree with your point. He was a piss poor leader and a bad sailor and he should not be celebrated. What came after was ... well I was going to say .... horrible but that does not describe it.

I over reacted to the "We" and "you" and I apologize.

and I do think Leonard Pellitier got railroaded

Well done, rcfst.

 

[rcfstl]

Accepted.

Glad I saw this before I went to bed....I feel better now, thank you.

And I need to stay out of the authors hang out unless I write something.

I will make myself scarce.

Sorry to intrude

 

[cloudy]

And I need to stay out of the authors hang out unless I write something.

I will make myself scarce.

Sorry to intrude

No reason for that....you're here now.

and with that, I'm going to bed. This has worn me out.