Critique Dan Brown

[drlust]

The teacher-wizard

Speaking as a college professor who spends a lot of time reviewing the teaching of his peers, I can say with confidence that the teacher-wizard is largely a myth perpetrated by Hollywood and various writers (many of whom probably think or themselves as teacher-wizards or who wish they were and so create characters to fulfill their own dreams). And, the professors who really are masters of their crafts are not hackneyed stereotypes like this one created by Dan Brown. They are real people who are passionate about their discipline, passionate about their craft and who take the time to learn how their students learn. Too many people teaching today believe that the epitome of good teaching is the Hollywood/Dan Brown version, when in reality it has almost nothing to do with this classroom style.

Whew! Sorry. Teaching is something I care a lot about and the perpetuation of this sort ot stereotype frosts me. (Note that as worked up as I got I used only one exclamation point...)

That said, I think RF's original point is a good one. Brown's writing, like Anne Rice's, John Grisham's and Elmore Leonard's and (shudder) Tom Clancy's are worth studying because they sell. I remember reading a review of a Grisham novel years ago in the New Yorker. The reviewer went on and on about how much he wanted to trash the book for being simplistic, silly, and formulaic, but couldn't bring himself to do so because he had such a hard time not turning the next page. He concluded that there was something in Grisham's writing that he, the reviewer, couldn't identify that made you want to keep reading and that until he could identify that thing, he didn't feel justified in trashing the book.

Finally, yes Penelope, eating in class is a no-no here in the US as well. Plus, it's bad manners.

Allan

 

[Penelope Street]

Finally, yes Penelope, eating in class is a no-no here in the US as well. Plus, it's bad manners.

I think Tulip pointed that one out. If it is bad manners, then I've been a cheetos smuggling cretin on an occasion or two.

That said, I think RF's original point is a good one. Brown's writing, like Anne Rice's, John Grisham's and Elmore Leonard's and (shudder) Tom Clancy's are worth studying because they sell.

Is this true if one does not aspire to sell their words? I want to create, not sell, thus I don't particularly care about learning the secret code to cranking out a bestseller- if there is such a secret.

I'm thankful for both R/L teacher's personal insights regarding the academic world. One of the things that turned me off about Langdon was his apparent contempt for his students. I've encountered a few teachers that seemed to get their little jollies by showing how much smarter they were than their students. Do you suppose Dan Brown fancies himself a teaching wizard?

 

[rosco rathbone]

I read the sample and felt like shooting the author with a tazer.

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

I read the sample and felt like shooting the author with a tazer.

Roscoe, don't even think about doing that, not unless it's just AFTER he's made a big withdrawl from the bank.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[drlust]

Is this true if one does not aspire to sell their words? I want to create, not sell, thus I don't particularly care about learning the secret code to cranking out a bestseller- if there is such a secret.

I think it's true even if one doesn't aspire to sell. Why? I think that books like Brown's that sell manage to elicit a visceral response from readers that (a) makes them keep reading and (b) recommend the book to their friends. I think we can learn from those who manage this trick.

I'm thankful for both R/L teacher's personal insights regarding the academic world. One of the things that turned me off about Langdon was his apparent contempt for his students. I've encountered a few teachers that seemed to get their little jollies by showing how much smarter they were than their students. Do you suppose Dan Brown fancies himself a teaching wizard?

There are certainly plenty of my colleagues who love teaching precisely because they can demonstrate to their students (they think) how much smarter they are. My experience is that most students see through this act and just think their assholes.

Allan

 

[Black Tulip]

...
There are certainly plenty of my colleagues who love teaching precisely because they can demonstrate to their students (they think) how much smarter they are. My experience is that most students see through this act and just think their assholes.
...
Allan

Seems a universal thing. LOL The same here.

 

[sophia jane]

IMHO, not only yes, but, hell yes. Amy's in the vast majority when it comes to enjoying Brown's work. What I'd like to figure out is if there's anything about his writing that added to his success or was it just catching the public's fancy with a strong, controversial story line?

So fire away, Amy, if you feel so inclined.

Rumple Forskin

Jumping in for my first ever post on the SDC (hope you don't mind). I read Code, and I enjoyed it, not because he's a brillaint writer (he's not IMHO), but because it made me think about things in a different way and it was a decent enough story. I didn't like it enough to read his other books, nor did I admire his style. In fact, quite the opposite; I found several things about his style very annoying, and I think the scene posted here is fairly representative of that style.
Basically I get the feeling from reading his writing that he's looking down on me, much like Langdon looks down on his students. That kind of condescension isn't appealing to me at all.

I'm a bit rusty on my mythology, but I think his intention here, and in Code as well, is to simplify very complicated issues and assume that this simplification is the truth for the sake of fiction. It makes for a decent story, at least in Code, but it also misleads the reader. The biggest problem with this is that the average reader isn't going to know that he is not totally accurate in his mythologies and symbols and will take his fiction as fact. That's part of why Code was so controversial and why it sold so many copies.
For me (and I'm probably getting off topic here a bit) this is sad- the issues he deals with are very interesting. I would love to read historically accurate writing about the roots of Christianity. Why can't someone write about that without fictionalizing it to the point where the "truth" is so blurred.

SJ

 

[rosco rathbone]

Roscoe, don't even think about doing that, not unless it's just AFTER he's made a big withdrawl from the bank.

Rumple Foreskin

belay that. withdrawal>pistol-whip with the tazer>take money>taze him while he's down.

 

[Penelope Street]

... I think RF's original point is a good one. Brown's writing, like Anne Rice's, John Grisham's and Elmore Leonard's and (shudder) Tom Clancy's are worth studying because they sell.

Is this true if one does not aspire to sell their words? I want to create, not sell, thus I don't particularly care about learning the secret code to cranking out a bestseller- if there is such a secret.

I think it's true even if one doesn't aspire to sell. Why? I think that books like Brown's that sell manage to elicit a visceral response from readers that (a) makes them keep reading and (b) recommend the book to their friends. I think we can learn from those who manage this trick.

Allan,

I appreciate your position and I concede the idea has merit, but after researching Dan Brown a bit I've decided my intuition was correct- I've nothing to learn from him that will assist me in becoming the writer I want to be. Somewhere in his sensation there may be a lesson in understanding a broad target audience, but I believe the bulk of his success stems from marketing to the masses rather than quality storytelling. Please notice I didn't say your reasoning was wrong per se; it's just not right for me.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[sweetnpetite]

Finally, yes Penelope, eating in class is a no-no here in the US as well. Plus, it's bad manners.

Allan

Well, usually the teacher sets the rules for his/her class where I'm from. And of course, since the teacher is in charge, they usually can do what they like.

I had an art teacher who let us make tea. And an english teacher who let me eat in her class sometimes. My son was also allowed to finish his school breakfast in class. It just depends.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I would love to read historically accurate writing about the roots of Christianity. Why can't someone write about that without fictionalizing it to the point where the "truth" is so blurred.

SJ

The difficulty of that is that "the truth" is just as controversial as anything else. Brown's novel is not about the truth, it's about a particular conspiracy theory and the 'what if' of it being the truth. However, there are lots of things written about the roots of christianity and the church (mostly non-fic) but there are of course many points of contention, not only of what happened, but what it means and how it's interpreted.

"Jesus was made God by the council of Nicea" (or however it was stated in the book) to me is an interpretation of what happened. An oppinion, not a True or False statement.

Every story has more than one side, and history is no different. There is always the 'accepted' history and then there are others with there theories- some more or less controversial than others. I think the way we were taught history leads us to think that it's *set in stone* that there is an *absolute truth* of history and that perspective, power, myth and legend have nothing to do with it. It's taught to us all in black and white with good guys and bad guys- Attilla the Hun, Bad; Christopher Collumbus, Good. But the truth has many shades.

I think I went way off topic. Sorry.

Sweet.

 

[Black Tulip]

Well, usually the teacher sets the rules for his/her class where I'm from. And of course, since the teacher is in charge, they usually can do what they like.

* BUZZZ *

Sorry Sweet, but I think that's dead wrong. Only because you are the teacher does not mean you don't have to behave.

Eating in front of a classroom is showing disrespect. You can but they can't???

I used to take water or coffee with me, because I had to talk a lot in some classes. You know, when my refugees were starting to learn the language, they could not yet talk back so it had to come from me all the time.
Other than that, no food or drink in the classroom. Unless you have something to celebrate, want to have some fun. But than you do it all together.
Now that I'm teaching problem kids/teenagers, I wouldn't dream of consuming anything. Hell, I'm glad I can convince them to stop chewing, smoking or sniffing for an hour.

 

[sweetnpetite]

Allan,

but I believe the bulk of his success stems from marketing to the masses rather than quality storytelling.


Take Care,
Penny

This may be true- to some extent.

I first became interested in the book after seeing programs about it. It was not the first time i had heard about the theory (abt. Mary Magdeline) but I became interested in the novel.

I got the book for christmas and started reading. It hooked me from the begining. Maybe it's not a particular passage- maybe it's not his lead character. It may well be his pacing (the book really sweeps you away) and his research. Despite the nits and pics on "what he got wrong" no one feels complelled to point out there he actually did (and does for all his books) quite a lot of research, and there's plenty within that he 'got right' and there's plenty that he just 'got' that people will argue because of their beliefs, rather than because of factual inacuracy.

Although you are free to write him off if you want, I would suggest that rather than researching about him, you pick up a copy at the library and read it for yourself. Perhaps like me, you'll be hooked. Perhaps you won't.

I am not usualy a reader of suspence novels, but I enjoyed this one. There are many different aspects to enjoy- the art, the mytholgy, the mystery/suspense, the history, even interesting stuff about *math*- believe it or not.

I just feel kind of sad when I think of all the poeple who don't want to read it because they've heard of all the things that he 'got wrong'-- most historical fiction does take liberties, poetic licsence. And contains errors. Even our own history books that we regard as sacred contain errors, repeated and passed down as truth.

I just want to say, if you don't like it that's fine. But give it a try. Judge it on it's own merrits. That's all.

 

[sweetnpetite]

* BUZZZ *

Sorry Sweet, but I think that's dead wrong. Only because you are the teacher does not mean you don't have to behave.

Eating in front of a classroom is showing disrespect. You can but they can't???

Write or wrong, some people don't follow the 'accepted way' of doing things.

As to "you can but they can't" I hate to say it but 'that's life' with age, position, ect comes certain rewards and benefits. When you're the teacher (especially at the college level) you get to set the rules for your classroom.

When I go to the store with my kids, I can, if I chose, buy myself something and not buy something for them. It might be mean, and I'm sure it will seem unfair to them, but it's my money and it's my choice. On the scale of world injustices, I think it hardly rates.

On the other hand, I probably have more respect for a teacher who 'set's the standard' rather than going on a 'do as I say, not as I do' basis. But not every teacher is the paragon of virtue. (to my personal disalusionment)

 

[sweetnpetite]

to consider:

HOW MUCH OF THIS NOVEL IS TRUE?
The Da Vinci Code is a novel and therefore a work of fiction. While the book's characters and their actions are obviously not real, the artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals depicted in this novel all exist (for example, Leonardo Da Vinci's paintings, the Gnostic Gospels, Hieros Gamos, etc.). These real elements are interpreted and debated by fictional characters. While it is my belief that some of the theories discussed by these characters may have merit, each individual reader must explore these characters' viewpoints and come to his or her own interpretations. My hope in writing this novel was that the story would serve as a catalyst and a springboard for people to discuss the important topics of faith, religion, and history.

BUT DOESN'T THE NOVEL'S "FACT" PAGE CLAIM THAT EVERY SINGLE WORD IN THIS NOVEL IS HISTORICAL FACT?
If you read the "FACT" page, you will see it clearly states that the documents, rituals, organization, artwork, and architecture in the novel all exist. The "FACT" page makes no statement whatsoever about any of the ancient theories discussed by fictional characters. Interpreting those ideas is left to the reader.

http://www.danbrown.com/novels/davinci_code/faqs.html

I realize that this has little to do with the topic of his prose or writing style, but it always comes up in any discussion of Brown and is always one of the major critisims against him.

 

[sweetnpetite]

SOME OF THE HISTORY IN THIS NOVEL CONTRADICTS WHAT I LEARNED IN SCHOOL. WHAT SHOULD I BELIEVE?
Since the beginning of recorded time, history has been written by the "winners" (those societies and belief systems that conquered and survived). Despite an obvious bias in this accounting method, we still measure the "historical accuracy" of a given concept by examining how well it concurs with our existing historical record. Many historians now believe (as do I) that in gauging the historical accuracy of a given concept, we should first ask ourselves a far deeper question: How historically accurate is history itself?

ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN?
Yes. Interestingly, if you ask three people what it means to be Christian, you will get three different answers. Some feel being baptized is sufficient. Others feel you must accept the Bible as absolute historical fact. Still others require a belief that all those who do not accept Christ as their personal savior are doomed to hell. Faith is a continuum, and we each fall on that line where we may. By attempting to rigidly classify ethereal concepts like faith, we end up debating semantics to the point where we entirely miss the obvious--that is, that we are all trying to decipher life's big mysteries, and we're each following our own paths of enlightenment. I consider myself a student of many religions. The more I learn, the more questions I have. For me, the spiritual quest will be a life-long work in progress.

 

[sweetnpetite]

IS THIS BOOK ANTI-CHRISTIAN?
No. This book is not anti-anything. It's a novel. I wrote this story in an effort to explore certain aspects of Christian history that interest me. The vast majority of devout Christians understand this fact and consider The Da Vinci Code an entertaining story that promotes spiritual discussion and debate. Even so, a small but vocal group of individuals has proclaimed the story dangerous, heretical, and anti-Christian. While I regret having offended those individuals, I should mention that priests, nuns, and clergy contact me all the time to thank me for writing the novel. Many church officials are celebrating The Da Vinci Code because it has sparked renewed interest in important topics of faith and Christian history. It is important to remember that a reader does not have to agree with every word in the novel to use the book as a positive catalyst for introspection and exploration of our faith.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF CLERICAL SCHOLARS ATTEMPTING TO "DISPROVE" THE DA VINCI CODE?
The dialogue is wonderful. These authors and I obviously disagree, but the debate that is being generated is a positive powerful force. The more vigorously we debate these topics, the better our understanding of our own spirituality. Controversy and dialogue are healthy for religion as a whole. Religion has only one true enemy--apathy--and passionate debate is a superb antidote.

 

[sweetnpetite]

THE TOPIC OF THIS NOVEL MIGHT BE CONSIDERED CONTROVERSIAL. DO YOU FEAR REPERCUSSIONS?
I can't imagine why. The ideas in this novel have been around for centuries; they are not my own. Admittedly, this may be the first time these ideas have been written about within the context of a popular thriller, but the information is anything but new. My hope for The Da Vinci Code was, in addition to entertaining people, that it might serve as an open door for readers to begin their own explorations and rekindle their interest in topics of faith.

HAS ANYONE IN ORGANIZED RELIGION COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF YOUR NOVEL?
Yes, many people in organized religion have come out in support of this novel, and, of course, many have come out in opposition as well. The opposition generally comes from the strictest Christian thinkers who feel the idea of a "married Jesus" serves to undermine His divinity. While I don't agree with this interpretation, this is immaterial because the dialogue itself is a deeply empowering and positive force for everyone involved. Suddenly, enormous numbers of people are passionately debating important philosophical topics, and regardless of the personal conclusions that each of us draws, the debate can only help to strengthen our understanding of our own faith.

 

[Black Tulip]

Write or wrong, some people don't follow the 'accepted way' of doing things.

As to "you can but they can't" I hate to say it but 'that's life' with age, position, ect comes certain rewards and benefits. When you're the teacher (especially at the college level) you get to set the rules for your classroom.

When I go to the store with my kids, I can, if I chose, buy myself something and not buy something for them. It might be mean, and I'm sure it will seem unfair to them, but it's my money and it's my choice. On the scale of world injustices, I think it hardly rates.

On the other hand, I probably have more respect for a teacher who 'set's the standard' rather than going on a 'do as I say, not as I do' basis. But not every teacher is the paragon of virtue. (to my personal disalusionment)

Sweet, perhaps you missed it but I have been a teacher of teenagers and adults for almost 25 years. I know what I'm talking about. I also know there are loads of colleagues who act like arrogant pricks, but that does not make it right.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi SJ,

I don't find your post or the others related to historical accuracy to be off-topic at all, especially since a recurring criticism of the classroom scene has been content inaccuracies. It’s an interesting topic indeed; how accurate must a story be for a reader to enjoy it? Of course it depends on the reader.

I don't think of myself as a history nut, but how our ancestors lived does interest me. I'm most curious about how a normal person lived an ordinary day as opposed to how a queen lived or why a particular battle was won.

I expect an author writing about the history of anything to either (a) get the major facts as right as can be, or (b)inform me up front that liberties were taken with the facts in order to create the desired setting for the tale.

By 'major facts', I mean those touching plot or character. I don't mind so much the little things being wrong. For instance, I was watching a movie with my bf and he leaned over and said something like, "That's wrong. That plane wasn't painted those colors until the next war." I'm certain I rolled my eyes. Sure, I'd prefer the smallest detail be correct and sometimes I notice when they aren't, but getting all the little things perfect is a staggering task. If it's not part of the story or a character, I can let a minor glitch go.

When an author either ignores or modifies history for the purposes of plot advancement, that turns me off, even if the intent is merely to entertain. When the purpose of the deceit is beyond entertainment, well, that's much worse.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Penelope Street]

I just want to say, if you don't like it that's fine. But give it a try. Judge it on it's own merits. That's all.

Given an infinite amount of time, I would certainly read this and most books. But I have to work, go home, and fix dinner, help my daughter with her homework, etc. Maybe if I'm lucky enough to get old, I'll have plenty of time to lie about and read, but I don't have that luxury today; I have to be choosy. So far, Dan Brown in no way interests me, not even in a Hmmm, wonder what that's about? way. But, I could be mistaken about the merits of his work. That's one of the reasons I was hoping to see a section selected by one of the author's fans.

 

[drlust]

I appreciate your position and I concede the idea has merit, but after researching Dan Brown a bit I've decided my intuition was correct- I've nothing to learn from him that will assist me in becoming the writer I want to be. Somewhere in his sensation there may be a lesson in understanding a broad target audience, but I believe the bulk of his success stems from marketing to the masses rather than quality storytelling. Please notice I didn't say your reasoning was wrong per se; it's just not right for me.

Well said Penny! You are, of course, correct in that each of us has to find his/her own voice. That's why I keep reading so many different authors. It's the diversity of voices that keeps me interested. If I had to read only the authors I cited earlier, I'd start watching television again.

Allan

 

[sweetnpetite]

Given an infinite amount of time, I would certainly read this and most books. But I have to work, go home, and fix dinner, help my daughter with her homework, etc. Maybe if I'm lucky enough to get old, I'll have plenty of time to lie about and read, but I don't have that luxury today; I have to be choosy. So far, Dan Brown in no way interests me, not even in a Hmmm, wonder what that's about? way. But, I could be mistaken about the merits of his work. That's one of the reasons I was hoping to see a section selected by one of the author's fans.

It's been over a year since i read it, but I can look and see if maybe there is a specific passage I like. Reading it critically, I don't know if anything will stand out. All I really know is that when I read it for enjoyment, it measured up and more.

 

[psdym]

If their definition were standard, how could readers know if an ellipsis was being used to indicate a pause or that something is missing?

The two methods I see are making sure the ellipsis don't trail from a word (less common) or that they're surrounded by brackets (more common).

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth ... the proposition that all men are created equal."

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth [...] the proposition that all men are created equal."

 

[Penelope Street]

My love and I went to a wedding last weekend and stayed overnight with an old classmate. Naturally, the three of us chatted about many things old and new. Come midnight, they'd both turned to pumpkins and I was left to peruse our hostess's paperback collection. Or course, you know what I found, right?

Angels and Demons, of course!

For lack of anything better to do, I searched for the passage originally the subject of this thread. Finding the piece took about ten minutes- it's in the center of the story as Rumple pointed out, not the beginning as I had originally guessed. Having read it in context, I have to wonder if Rumple chose Dan's worst scene ever. Turns out the passage in question is a flashback and has nothing to do with character development, except perhaps a futile attempt to portray Langdon as suave. For me, the flashback served only to disrupt the surrounding scene.

On a positive note, reading several pages from Angels and Demons plus the first handful from Di Vinci Code took care of my original dilemma quite nicely.

Take Care,
Penny

P.S.
Anyone interested in reading the scene in context may find it on page 61 here:
http://www.fictionbook.ru/author/br...ons/brown_robert_langdon_1_angels_demons.html