Death By Liberation for 100,000 Iraqi Civilians

[Edward Teach]

Let's just hope none of the survivors come home from Iraq and start mouthing off to Congress about how badly the war is being run - or worse yet, making up stories about atrocities against civilians. As much as we respect our men and women in uniform, we don't tolerate that kind of behavior in America.

Oh my God, Sher, I hadn't thought about that. It's going to happen and God help us all when it does.

As divided as this country is right now, it can't take another Viet Nam. It will blow apart this time like it almost did before.

Shit.

 

[shereads]

Oh my God, Sher, I hadn't thought about that. It's going to happen and God help us all when it does.

As divided as this country is right now, it can't take another Viet Nam. It will blow apart this time like it almost did before.

Shit.

I thought that was happening now.

On the bright side, in 20 years we can look forward to the unveiling of the Iraq War Memorial. Let's hope there aren't as many names on the wall.

In 30 years, we can watch a Republican candidate (someone who's currently supporting the war in every way except by volunteering) smear his opponent's war record by finding other veterans to call him a liar.

 

[shereads]

Faces of the Fallen.

When I last posted this link, there were 700 faces. Today there are 1006. While were here bickering over whether it was more disrespectful of the dead to show their faces than to ignore them, 300 of these people were still alive. Click on an image and you'll see a life smiling back at you. It's their smiles that break my heart.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

 

[LadyJeanne]

Since the Pentagon ordered to extend the tours of duty of 6500 troops this past week, and there are replacements currently on their way to Iraq, it doesn't look likely anyone will be coming home to tell their stories any time soon.

 

[cantdog]

There are the wounded, though. Some are, as Sher says, already telling their stories.

 

[shereads]

There are the wounded, though. Some are, as Sher says, already telling their stories.

Several of them did in Fareinheit 911. Let's hope none of them had hoped to run for president. Our patriotic gratitude only extends so far.

 

[TheEarl]

Let me see....here


Global warming I think is a reality, but I have heard many opinions on what is is actually doing and what scientists think it means for us in the future.

I just think it is insane when The Kerry camp things they can turn the situation around in their administration. Seems arrogant to me is all.

The Kyoto Accord. All America needs to do is put its signature to the treaty and abide by the regulations and global warming would be slowed dramatically. How is it insane to think that Kerry can turn the situation around? He just needs to sign a bit of paper and stop America being so bloody selfish!

America has the toughest zones that is why there is the most problems. But let us thank the British for the modern Middle East. We wouldn't have half the problems we do if not for the how the British Empire left things post WWII.

May want to quite down about things.

Yes, you can thank the British Empire for a lot of the problems in the Middle East. Lawrence of Arabia and the condominiums fucked up the area nicely. But I think the US over-support of Israel and interference in Middle-Eastern policies (Suez anyone? You managed to screw up the Middle East and fuck over one of your allies at the same time) and the cock-up made at the end of the First Gulf War where power was handed back to Hussein didn't help matters much. At least we're making reparations for our mistakes rather than compounding them.

As for the toughest zone - Baghdad and Basra were considered of equal difficulty when the coalition invaded. Moqtada Al-Sadr actually comes from the South. Yet the North is where the trouble is. Haven't you noticed something of a pattern - they blow you up, you blow them up in retribution, they blow you up in retribution, ad nauseam. Violence begets violence, although I doubt you'll see the wisdom of that credo.

Judging someone by their avatar. I have never done that because frankly I don't care how stupid your's looks.

Ooh and he comes out swinging. I'm hurt. Really

I read the words.

You read my posts and came to the conclusion that I regarded all soldiers as 'baby-killers' despite the fact that I've been lauding the British Army throughout the last week.

Most of the time I just read it and look who wrote it afterwards. My contact with those in the military is a source of information that is anecdotal. All I am saying is it always seems to be postive. My experience is I have never met a liberal that respected someone for their military service.

Jagged - My name's The Earl. I have a good handful of friends in the military and more in the Officer Training Corps. Although I'm not sure I count as a liberal according to your politics. I don't drink coffee (especially not Starbucks), I'm not on a mission to wreck the economy and I have pride in my country.

I just believe in freedom for all, equal opportunity not dependent on race or sexuality, no discrimination or prejudice. That's what an Englishman means when he says 'liberal.' Say, aren't those the ideals that the USA's supposed to hold dear?

The Earl

 

[shereads]

Yet don't you love it when GWB loyalists offer, as a reason for giving him a second chance, the belief that no other president will be able to reverse the damage he's done?

"These are Bush's screw-ups. He alone must administer the antidote!"

They're right about one thing. The president that follows GWB s is doomed to failure. Maybe the next two or three presidents. We're in a pit so deep that even volunteering to grab a shovel is an act of heroism.

 

[rgraham666]

I thought that was happening now.

On the bright side, in 20 years we can look forward to the unveiling of the Iraq War Memorial. Let's hope there aren't as many names on the wall.

In 30 years, we can watch a Republican candidate (someone who's currently supporting the war in every way except by volunteering) smear his opponent's war record by finding other veterans to call him a liar.

I don't think the U.S. will be around in thirty years.

Canada either for that matter. We're to closely intertwined economically.

As one of my favourite SF authours put it, "we had it good, you and I, but I weep for our children."

 

[Somme]

As one of my favourite SF authours put it, "we had it good, you and I, but I weep for our children."

...and theirs too, eh?

 

[Edward Teach]

I don't think the U.S. will be around in thirty years.

Canada either for that matter. We're to closely intertwined economically.

As one of my favourite SF authours put it, "we had it good, you and I, but I weep for our children."

You know, RG, many people don't believe that it can happen and ironically, that is what may cause it to happen.

This administration took over this country in the best shape it has ever been in. The economy was good, our economic future had been set on the right course and merely needed tending, the arms race with the USSR was over, China was falling in line and we were the only super power.

All they had to do was be good stewards and the whole world would be with us. But they became "stupid rich," arrogant and greedy. They immediately set about to spend like druken sailors, giving money and tax cuts to all their fat cat supporters. They even started the big military spending crap all over again, calling for the development of an anti-missle defense system, then rushed into a poorly planned war in Iraq. They spent so much that a $5 trillion dollar surplus became a $3 trillion dollar deficit, an $8 trillion dollar spending spree, $27,500 for every man, woman and child in the US.

Now everyone on the planet is afraid of our imperialistic actions, considers us dangerous and also knows that we cannot afford another cold war. Russia has started another arms build up
and China will likely follow soon. They know that another arms race might bankrupt us.

China has so much invested in the US that our economy might well collapse if they pull out.

Our dollar had shrunk by 20% on the world market while the Euro holds steady and the effects of the huge deficts have not kicked in yet. We could easily become a second rate power within the next four years. If the oil producing nations decide they want to be paid in Euros instead of dollars, our economy goes down the toilet. It could happen almost overnight.

It is good to pull for a team. I pull for the UNC Tarheels, right or wrong, good or bad, but I know that they are playing a game.

The fate of this nation is no game and voting for "your team," right or wrong, good or bad, is stupid. And dangerous.



Edward Teach

 

[Weird Harold]

We're not just divided by ideology in this country anymore. We're from different planets. That became clear when conservatives decreed that it's no longer a sign of respect for the dead when you publish their names and pictures. I don't know about you, but if I took a bullet thousands of miles from home, I'd want the world to remember my face, not hide it. Your side shows its respect for their sacrifice by pretending it hasn't happened.

As someone who has been on the wrong end of the political perversion of "Home Town News Releases" and in a position that could easily have resulted in my flag-draped coffin being used as a political weapon against a cause I supported, I completely agree with the policy of not publishing names and photos -- or any other peronal details -- about casualties.

Simply allowing my graduation from Technical School and assignment to Vietnam to be published in my "home town newspaper" -- atually the paper of the nearest big city to my hometown -- resulted in a deluge of hate-mail to me and my parents.

That was just from an inocuous reassignment notice in a paper that reaches about 1/4 of the State of Oregon. I shudder to think of the result if it were published nationally or worse yet, the resuls for my family if it were my obituary and flag draped coffin that were published.

I never signed another home town news release form for the remaining 20 years of my career.

The political climate isn't quite as rabidly against the troops now as it was then, but it's very close to becoming so. The people who decided to ban news coverage of flag-draped coffins without the permission of next-of-kin know just how vicious the response to unwanted publicity can be -- my experience was NOT unusul during Vietnam -- and IMHO, wisely acted to limit the possibility of generating hate-mail on a national scale for the next-of-kin.

 

[Edward Teach]

As someone who has been on the wrong end of the political perversion of "Home Town News Releases" and in a position that could easily have resulted in my flag-draped coffin being used as a political weapon against a cause I supported, I completely agree with the policy of not publishing names and photos -- or any other peronal details -- about casualties.

Simply allowing my graduation from Technical School and assignment to Vietnam to be published in my "home town newspaper" -- atually the paper of the nearest big city to my hometown -- resulted in a deluge of hate-mail to me and my parents.

That was just from an inocuous reassignment notice in a paper that reaches about 1/4 of the State of Oregon. I shudder to think of the result if it were published nationally or worse yet, the resuls for my family if it were my obituary and flag draped coffin that were published.

I never signed another home town news release form for the remaining 20 years of my career.

The political climate isn't quite as rabidly against the troops now as it was then, but it's very close to becoming so. The people who decided to ban news coverage of flag-draped coffins without the permission of next-of-kin know just how vicious the response to unwanted publicity can be -- my experience was NOT unusul during Vietnam -- and IMHO, wisely acted to limit the possibility of generating hate-mail on a national scale for the next-of-kin.

This country went insane towards the end of Viet Nam, WH and I'm sorry you had to endure such treatment. It is shameful.

I hope it doesn't happen again, but I'm afraid it is going to.

Ed

 

[BigAndTall]

The Kyoto Accord. All America needs to do is put its signature to the treaty and abide by the regulations and global warming would be slowed dramatically. How is it insane to think that Kerry can turn the situation around? He just needs to sign a bit of paper and stop America being so bloody selfish!



The Earl

Thats not true. It would have to pass a Senate that rejected this treaty already.

 

[Weird Harold]

This country went insane towards the end of Viet Nam, WH and I'm sorry you had to endure such treatment. It is shameful.

Sadly, my experience was NOT at the "end" of Vietnam, but near the middle -- The first couple of months in-country, June and July 1969, were the worst part of it.

 

[KarenAM]

As someone who has been on the wrong end of the political perversion of "Home Town News Releases" and in a position that could easily have resulted in my flag-draped coffin being used as a political weapon against a cause I supported, I completely agree with the policy of not publishing names and photos -- or any other peronal details -- about casualties.

Simply allowing my graduation from Technical School and assignment to Vietnam to be published in my "home town newspaper" -- atually the paper of the nearest big city to my hometown -- resulted in a deluge of hate-mail to me and my parents.

That was just from an inocuous reassignment notice in a paper that reaches about 1/4 of the State of Oregon. I shudder to think of the result if it were published nationally or worse yet, the resuls for my family if it were my obituary and flag draped coffin that were published.

I never signed another home town news release form for the remaining 20 years of my career.

The political climate isn't quite as rabidly against the troops now as it was then, but it's very close to becoming so. The people who decided to ban news coverage of flag-draped coffins without the permission of next-of-kin know just how vicious the response to unwanted publicity can be -- my experience was NOT unusul during Vietnam -- and IMHO, wisely acted to limit the possibility of generating hate-mail on a national scale for the next-of-kin.

Weird Harold -- Thank you. I hadn't considered that side of it, and you've given me a completely new perspective on the issue of media coverage of our war dead.

And thank you as well for your service. I can't even begin to imagine what your experience in war was like, but I am grateful to you.

I wish our nation had had the wisdom to appreciate you.

 

[cantdog]

As far as the hundred thousand is concerned: I've checked into the sampling method. It's just fine as regards death rates. I am willing to go ahead and believe 100,000 dead (and more in Fallujah, as the study makes clear) from all causes since the unprovoked invasion. The difference between that figure and the figure which would have been, without the war, can be estimated by the change in the death rate. The difference also seems to correspond, almost, with the increases in death by violence. The rest of the increase would be indirect stuff.

But it is entirely statistical. Collecting "that's one, that's two" kind of data is difficult. Not every body passes through a morgue, by any means. The counts once done have been stopped by the governmental authority and the count by the Coalition is held secret.

They don't even have a non-secret count of the number of American casualties which were not deaths.

cantdog