Death Penalty

[Weird Harold]

Weird Harold, you first say that this is just about a crime - murder and hijacking - and that everyplace has laws to deal with that. This guy was tried, convicted, and served his sentence, then released under the laws of where he was tried. You may think he should have been tried in the US, but then you're saying our justice is better than Germany's. Actually, the death penalty may be completely relevant, in that many nations won't extradite criminals to countries wiht the death penalty. I don't know if that's an issue in this case, but it's come up in the past.

Your making the same error I pointed out before -- the article refers to both brothers by their last name -- Hamadi -- but there are TWO people referred that way.

One brother hijacked asn airliner, and murder a US Sailor. That brother was sentenced to LIFE in prison and was paroled after serving 19 years as ransom for a German citizen held hostage in the middle east.

The other brother was sentenced to 13 years for a different crime, served his sentence in full and was released.

 

[Somme]

If, he returns to terrorism and if he manages a successful attack, then the people who die, are casualties of the german's stance against the death penalty.

The fact that he may kill again, is a fairly strong argument for the death penalty imho.

Colly, using this argument, Bush and the cabal should be hung. Period.

 

[Lisa Denton]

This is about the germans negotiating with terrorists, the terrorists are pigs and those who negotiate with them are piglets. I am surprised that germany decided to be a puppet to what they consider to be the worlds last remaining superpower, terrorists. I have a lot of respect for the german people but no repect for the leaders responsible for this outrageous decision.



The death penalty is an unrelated issue here, but during your heated debates have compassion, you pray the most vicious should live, and I will pray you and your loved ones never meet one.

Victims are forgotten, unimportant useless people who are merely statistics in your debates, thier death irrelevant. As you pray for the murderers, I will pray for the victims.

 

[R. Richard]

Colly, using this argument, Bush and the cabal should be hung. Period.

I fail to see the connection between Colly's argument and the size of the sexual equipment of "Bush and the cabal." Please explain. TIA.

 

[R. Richard]

The death penalty is an unrelated issue here, but during your heated debates have compassion, you pray the most vicious should live, and I will pray you and your loved ones never meet one.

Victims are forgotten, unimportant useless people who are merely statistics in your debates, thier death irrelevant. As you pray for the murderers, I will pray for the victims.

Lisa, you have identified the nasty little fact that has to be ignored if you are a passionate opponent of the death penalty. There are victims to many crimes. If people concentrate on the rights of the criminal, the rights of the victim are all too often ignored. This last is particularly easy if the victim is dead.

JMHO.

 

[rgraham666]

Oh get fucking real!

Do you think because I oppose the death penalty I 'forget' about the monsters. Shit no!

I just don't see how killing monsters, if they actually are monsters, will prevent people from meeting other monsters. There is an endless supply of them you know.

And the terrorists are a superpower Lisa? Huh? They have the power to wipe us from the face of the earth? To impose their will on us with force? Stick enough of their soldiers in our cities to have checkpoints at every intersection and check IDs? As well as random killings just to keep us in line?

May I please see the data you drew this information from?

I don't agree with the death penalty. I don't agree with negotiating with terrorists, as the Germans did in this case. I fail to see how these two facts are related.

And I really don't think we're in any great danger from terrorists. Christ, more people die in traffic accidents than terrorism.

 

[Liar]

Victims are forgotten, unimportant useless people who are merely statistics in your debates, thier death irrelevant. As you pray for the murderers, I will pray for the victims.

If people concentrate on the rights of the criminal, the rights of the victim are all too often ignored.

Are we down to these tired old cheap-ass bullshit shame-everone-into-agreeing arguments now?

*sigh*

 

[Lisa Denton]

Lisa, you have identified the nasty little fact that has to be ignored if you are a passionate opponent of the death penalty. There are victims to many crimes. If people concentrate on the rights of the criminal, the rights of the victim are all too often ignored. This last is particularly easy if the victim is dead.

JMHO.

Yes, that is what I was sayin. The victim is dead, therefore irrelevant. It is now important to make sure that the murderers rights is not violated, that he has good food and a warm, safe bed and t.v. and medical and dental care.

Whether or not the victims rights may have been slightly violated as they was raped, beaten and stabbed, is not important.

 

[Lisa Denton]

Are we down to these tired old cheap-ass bullshit shame-everone-into-agreeing arguments now?

*sigh*

Don't put a quote from me down with a reply like that.

Argue your position, don't slam me for mine.

 

[R. Richard]

Are we down to these tired old cheap-ass bullshit shame-everone-into-agreeing arguments now?

*sigh*

It would rather seem that we are down to the begging the question arguments again.

 

[bridgeburner]

Lisa, you have identified the nasty little fact that has to be ignored if you are a passionate opponent of the death penalty. There are victims to many crimes. If people concentrate on the rights of the criminal, the rights of the victim are all too often ignored. This last is particularly easy if the victim is dead.

JMHO.

I'm thinking about the innocent citizens who get locked up for decades, raped, beaten and sometimes killed. Are they not victims? Or does it not matter who dies to satisfy the need for vengeance so long as somebody does? It's a dangerous power to give the State over its citizens.

And does it help? When the killer is dead do your loved ones come magically back to life? Does it mean that no one else you know might suffer? Does it make you safe?

No and no and no again.

I think it unhealthy in the extreme that we as a society continue to tell people that they'll feel better if we just kill somebody for them. I refuse to encourage victims to put their lives on hold for 15 or 20 or 25 years to get "closure" when the appeals process is finally exhausted. I refuse to condone exploiting victims of violent crime to satisfy some sense of Old Testament righteousness.

When someone you love is taken from you by a killer there isn't enough violence or rage or pain in the world to make up for it and anyone who tells you different is full of shit. Maybe if you got to personally tear the monster limb from limb with your own hands, but in the end nothing will have changed. Your loved one is still dead. You cannot buy back a life with a death.

-B

 

[Lisa Denton]

I'm thinking about the innocent citizens who get locked up for decades, raped, beaten and sometimes killed. Are they not victims? Or does it not matter who dies to satisfy the need for vengeance so long as somebody does? It's a dangerous power to give the State over its citizens.

And does it help? When the killer is dead do your loved ones come magically back to life? Does it mean that no one else you know might suffer? Does it make you safe?

No and no and no again.

I think it unhealthy in the extreme that we as a society continue to tell people that they'll feel better if we just kill somebody for them. I refuse to encourage victims to put their lives on hold for 15 or 20 or 25 years to get "closure" when the appeals process is finally exhausted. I refuse to condone exploiting victims of violent crime to satisfy some sense of Old Testament righteousness.

When someone you love is taken from you by a killer there isn't enough violence or rage or pain in the world to make up for it and anyone who tells you different is full of shit. Maybe if you got to personally tear the monster limb from limb with your own hands, but in the end nothing will have changed. Your loved one is still dead. You cannot buy back a life with a death.

-B

I am an advocate for innocent persons wrongly accused, whether its for jay-walking or mass murder. I also think that 15 or 20 or 25 MONTHS is too long for the appeals process to take.

I am not an advocate FOR the death penalty, but I do believe there are situations and crimes where it is warranted and should be carried out swiftly.

I am an advocate for victims rights, whether the victim lives or dies. Since it wasn't reported in that news in the first post where the freed convicted murderers full name was given:

The 23 year old victims first name was Robert.

Again, this story was about Germany negotiating with terrorists, not the death penalty.

In my opinion.

 

[bridgeburner]

I am an advocate for innocent persons wrongly accused, whether its for jay-walking or mass murder. I also think that 15 or 20 or 25 MONTHS is too long for the appeals process to take.

I am not an advocate FOR the death penalty, but I do believe there are situations and crimes where it is warranted and should be carried out swiftly.

I am an advocate for victims rights, whether the victim lives or dies. Since it wasn't reported in that news in the first post where the freed convicted murderers full name was given:

The 23 year old victims first name was Robert.

Again, this story was about Germany negotiating with terrorists, not the death penalty.

In my opinion.

My post was really to R. Richard who seems to be a pretty adamant endorser of the death penalty.

I agree with you that the story is about Germany negotiating with terrorists and has nothing to do with the death penalty.

The problem with speeding up the appeals process is evident when you think of how many people have been released on DNA evidence in recent years who've been languishing on death row for decades. Had we been swifter to "justice" those men would all have been dead years ago. Innocent men. I don't think the opportunity to punish a killer like Ted Bundy is worth the lives of innocent men. Nothing can bring back the women Bundy killed, but I have a problem with the idea that it's so important to kill Bundy in turn that it doesn't matter if we sacrifice other lives in order to do it. It makes our bloodlust no less monstrous than Bundy's.



-B

 

[Liar]

Don't put a quote from me down with a reply like that.

Argue your position, don't slam me for mine.

If your posirtion is that I don't give a shit about victims because I don't think the convict should be shot, then how the hell do you expect me to react? Gracefully?

 

[R. Richard]

"I'm thinking about the innocent citizens who get locked up for decades, raped, beaten and sometimes killed. Are they not victims? Or does it not matter who dies to satisfy the need for vengeance so long as somebody does? It's a dangerous power to give the State over its citizens."
It is, in every civilized state, a matter of law, not vengeance. The state has to have some control over its citizens. One form of control is incarceration or death for serious crimes. There are innocent people [myself included] who get put in jail. On almost all cases an innocent person is put in jail because of perjured testimony by a criminal. It is not the state who is at fault, but the enforcement people including police and prosecuters. It is not a matter of vengeance, but a matter of job advancement.

"nd does it help? When the killer is dead do your loved ones come magically back to life? Does it mean that no one else you know might suffer? Does it make you safe?"
Executing a killer does not make loved ones come magically back to life. Executing a killer does make certain that no one else's loved ones need die at the hand of the executed kiler. Executing a killer makes everyone in a society a little safer.

Most of the people in Literotica have never dealt with hard core criminals in any depth. I have. I grew up in some very bad inner city areas. I dealt with killers and worse on a day by day basis. For most of the really hard core criminals, death is the only real deterrent.

JMNTHO.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly, using this argument, Bush and the cabal should be hung. Period.

Is there a reason why, the Bush administration has to come up in every debate? How the President and his administration has any pretinence to this debate is, truly, beyond me.

 

[Pure]

RR For most of the really hard core criminals, death is the only real deterrent.

and what exactly were they deterred from doing?

 

[bridgeburner]

It is, in every civilized state, a matter of law, not vengeance.

Laws are made by people and people have varied motives for enacting those laws. Would you make the claim that segregational laws were not about racism?

The state has to have some control over its citizens.

That's not in dispute. The method and its efficacy is.

There are innocent people [myself included] who get put in jail. On almost all cases an innocent person is put in jail because of perjured testimony by a criminal. It is not the state who is at fault, but the enforcement people including police and prosecuters. It is not a matter of vengeance, but a matter of job advancement.

Do you have so little knowledge of how our justice system is run? Law enforcement and District Attorneys and Public Defenders and Parole Officers are all employees of the State. They exist because of the laws of State. They are not separate from it. It is some of these very flaws you mention which make it impossible for me to condone capital punishment. In a system so flawed and so prone to error we jeopardize the lives and safety of all free people by insisting on keeping capital punishment as an option.

Most of the people in Literotica have never dealt with hard core criminals in any depth. I have. I grew up in some very bad inner city areas. I dealt with killers and worse on a day by day basis.

Appeals to specialized experience don't hold water. We all must live in this society. We don't let only people who have children vote on tax measures affecting schools. We don't let only the elderly vote on measures affecting senior citizens. We don't allow only ex-cons to determine prison policy.

For most of the really hard core criminals, death is the only real deterrent.

For most really hard core criminals death is no deterrent at all. Just as the law isn't what keeps most people from becoming potheads, so the death penalty isn't what keeps the vast majority of criminals from killing. The simple fact is that most people aren't murderers. Those who are will kill regardless of the severity of the punishment because most killers don't expect to get caught if they're thinking at all.


-B

 

[Lisa Denton]

If your posirtion is that I don't give a shit about victims because I don't think the convict should be shot, then how the hell do you expect me to react? Gracefully?

I didn't expect this from you, I expected better.

Perhaps I was wrong.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liar
If your posirtion is that I don't give a shit about victims because I don't think the convict should be shot, then how the hell do you expect me to react? Gracefully?

I didn't expect this from you, I expected better.

Perhaps I was wrong.

Liar, at the risk of alienating lots of people, and I only say this because I've had a few glasses of wine and can <maybe> claim plausible deniability in the future, :

It's useless to argue with a pretty woman.

That's not a hard and fast rule, and I'm sure there are exceptions, etc. etc. etc.

I'm just saying.

 

[Liar]

I didn't expect this from you, I expected better.

Perhaps I was wrong.

Well, I'm sorry I didn't live up to your expectations then. But what were they? Please inform me exactly what I did that was so repulsive?

You said "Victims are forgotten, unimportant useless people who are merely statistics in your debates, thier death irrelevant. As you pray for the murderers, I will pray for the victims."

Why should I take that and not speak up about it? It's like me asking a death penalty supporter "Why do you enjoy killing?" Both are cheap shots and niether is true.

If I, in some way that I can't fathom, misread what you wanted to say with that, then I apologize. Could you then please explain what else you meant??

 

[Weird Harold]

For most really hard core criminals death is no deterrent at all.

I can't think of a single criminal who was excuted that ever commited another crime.

The Death Penalty has been proven to have little effect as a deterent. However, DEATH is a 100% effective prevention of repeat offenses.

 

[Boxlicker101]

I can't think of a single criminal who was excuted that ever commited another crime.

The Death Penalty has been proven to have little effect as a deterent. However, DEATH is a 100% effective prevention of repeat offenses.

Whereas, incarceration is virtually no deterrant. The next man scheduled to be executed in California contracted three murders while in prison and many other murders have been ordered by crime bosses or actually committed by prisoners.

I have been trying to do some research. I couldn't find any instances of a person committing murder while on death row either.

 

[Weird Harold]

Whereas, incarceration is virtually no deterrant. The next man scheduled to be executed in California contracted three murders while in prison and many other murders have been ordered by crime bosses or actually committed by prisoners.

I have been trying to do some research. I couldn't find any instances of a person committing murder while on death row either.

I suppose any inmate with visitor priveleges and/or outside phone contacts could contract for or order further murders so evenif it can't be documented, commission of further crimes while on death row are certainly possible.

So, if incarceration for life without the possibility of parole is your maxium penalty, what do you do with someone who continues to act criminally while incarcerated? Complete Solitary Confinement wwoul work, but it has been ruled Cruel and Unusual Punishment -- because it IS Cruel and "Unusual" punishment that destroys the mind instead of the body.

Without the Death Penalty as the ultimate sanction there simply is no remedy for the truly incorrigible criminals save walling them up and feeding them through a loose brick and IMHO that is crueler and more inhumane than simply putting to sleep permanently.

There are some serious problems with the way the Death Penalty is applied in any jurisdiction that permits it. However, there are fewer problems than in the past, and there will likely be fewer problems in the future -- very few people are executed for stealing bread and the standards of proof are getting tougher with each appeal of a Capital Crime. But however badly or precisely the Death Penalty is applied, it seems to me that we NEED the option execution to remain available as the Ultimate Sanction -- not as a deterent, but as a remedy when all else fails to curb criminal a behavior.

 

[Somme]

Is there a reason why, the Bush administration has to come up in every debate? How the President and his administration has any pretinence to this debate is, truly, beyond me.

Yes, Colly, there is.

The US misadministration have been 'let free' by it's 'electorate'. They have continued to terrorise. Thus, using your argument, deserve to be strung up - sauce being, I believe, both for the goose AND the gander.