Does anyone else have a problem with this?

[ishtat]

1. Killed rather more than vice versa? do you have figures?

2. Radical Islam was the reason why muslims were there in India in the first place. Go back a little more than 60 years to about 1600 years.

3. But for some strange reason, hindus are not frisked more than others on airports all over the world, they don't undergo racial profiling. And don't get me started on how many places of worship of any religion has "radical Islam" seen go down.

(I promised myself I wouldn't take part in political discussions, but this was just blatant!)

Re 1 The usually accepted figure killed by most authorities is 1.2 million plus or minus 100000 with about 60 % of the dead being moslems.

Re 2 No it wasn't, the moslem conquerors of your forefathers were main stream moslems not fundamentalist radicals, but still conquerors.

Suggest you read your own country's history rather than magasine mythology.

 

[Intrepid_Arjuna]

Re 1 The usually accepted figure killed by most authorities is 1.2 million plus or minus 100000 with about 60 % of the dead being moslems.

Re 2 No it wasn't, the moslem conquerors of your forefathers were main stream moslems not fundamentalist radicals, but still conquerors.

Suggest you read your own country's history rather than magasine mythology.

My Uncle died in a terror attack on the Indian parliament on December 13, 2001. My friend's dad was severely injured in pakistan's last attempt at invasion of northern India at "Kargil". It would be hard for me to have an unbiased discussion on this, but I will attempt to be factual:

1. Hindu genocide:

Information provided by Dept. of Planning of Government of Bangla Desh, Encyclopedia Britannica, Senator Edward Kennedy's report to the U.S.Senate Judiciary Committee, Newsweek, New York Times,etc. This information and elementary math are used to show that indeed millions of Hindus were killed in East Pakistan in 1971. This article deals with slaughter of about 2.5 million Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971.

The Partition (India - Pakistan) pogroms killed hardly 0.3% of the Hindus (Living in pakistan), and though it annihilated the Hindu presence in all the provinces of Pakistan except for parts of Sindh and East Bengal, it did so mostly by putting the Hindus to flight (at least seven million) rather than by killing them (probably half a million). Likewise, the ethnic cleansing of a quarter million Hindus from Kashmir in 1990 followed the strategy of "killing one to expel a hundred", which is not the same thing as killing them all; in practice, about 1,500 were killed. Partition featured some local massacres of genocidal type, with the Sikhs as the most wanted victims, but in relative as well as absolute figures, this does not match the Holocaust.


2. Medieval Moslem Conquerers:

The invading sultans (in the Medieval Indian subcontinent) like Qutb ud-din Aibak and Ala-ud-din Khilji often offered clemency to the enemy after their defeat if they converted to Islam.

Qutb-ud-din Aybak initiated the construction of Delhi's earliest Muslim monuments, the Quwwat-ul-Islam mosque and the Qutub Minar. Historical records compiled by Muslim historian Maulana Hakim Saiyid Abdul Hai attest to the iconoclasm of Qutb-ud-din Aybak. The first mosque built in Delhi, the "Qubbat al-Islam" was built after demolishing the Hindu temple built previously by Prithvi Raj.

Aurangzeb (Another Medieval Moslem Ruler) is remembered for his Sunni fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. Strict adherence to Islam and Sharia (Islamic law)—as he interpreted them—were the foundations of his reign. He attempted to institute Sharia law throughout the empire, abandoning the religious openness of his predecessorsIt is said of his reign that many Hindu temples were defiled, destroyed, and replaced by mosques, a practice which had been largely discontinued since Babur's time. Many non-Muslims were supposedly converted to Islam. The hated Jizya, a tax imposed on non-Muslims, was reinstated during his rule. Forcible conversion of non-Muslims to Islam was a policy objective under Aurangzeb's rule.Aurangzeb's ultimate aim was conversion of non-Muslims to Islam. Whenever possible the emperor gave out robes of honor, cash gifts, and promotions to converts. It quickly became known that conversion was a sure way to the emperor's favor. During his reign, many hundreds -- perhaps many thousands -- of temples were desecrated: facades and interiors were defaced and their murtis (idols) looted. In many cases, temples were destroyed entirely; in numerous instances mosques were built on their foundations, sometimes using the same stones.His edicts show that he authorized and encouraged these acts. The history of the Mughal reign under Aurangzeb was chronicled as the Maāsir-i-ʻālamgiri, which states that:
1. Aurangzeb issued a general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and rename it as Islamabad[13][14]
2. In Khandela (Rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
3. In Multan and Thatta in Sind, Aurangzeb ordered the governors to "demolish the schools and temples of the infidels and with utmost urgency put down the teachings and practices of these religious misbelievers [Hindus]"[13][14]
4. In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.[14]
5. 66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
6. In Pandhpur, Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.[14]

 

[elbiscayne]

I am not well-versed in 'The Law'. A lot of what has been posted here is just the 'bandying of words' with no solutions sought or offered.

My problem:
A man burns down my house killing my family. His only reason being that his god is better than mine.

My Solution, My Law, My Right (not as an American) as a Man:
The man will be shot on sight and left to rot where he falls. His family will be killed. Any known or suspected accomplises, acquaintances, and others of a like belief will be hunted down and killed. Their families will be killed. Anyone who taught this man will be killed. The teacher's family will be killed. All students of the teacher and their families will be killed.

Then and only then will I submit to 'The Law' that you all bandy about.

I'm willing to bet that a jury of my peers would acquit me.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I am not well-versed in 'The Law'. A lot of what has been posted here is just the 'bandying of words' with no solutions sought or offered.

My problem:
A man burns down my house killing my family. His only reason being that his god is better than mine.

My Solution, My Law, My Right (not as an American) as a Man:
The man will be shot on sight and left to rot where he falls. His family will be killed. Any known or suspected accomplises, acquaintances, and others of a like belief will be hunted down and killed. Their families will be killed. Anyone who taught this man will be killed. The teacher's family will be killed. All students of the teacher and their families will be killed.

Then and only then will I submit to 'The Law' that you all bandy about.

I'm willing to bet that a jury of my peers would acquit me.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

Maybe on the guy that burned down your house and killed your family...

But as far as the others go they will find you guilty and probably sentence you to death.

 

[rgraham666]

Sigh. This thread keeps making me recall Matthewson's 23rd Edict.

To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid.

 

[elbiscayne]

Sigh. This thread keeps making me recall Matthewson's 23rd Edict.

To be angered by evil is to partake of it, stupid.

Angered by evil? Far from it.

If you are confronted by an animal whose only purpose is to take your life, you can not placate it, you can not reason with it; but you can show it what being an animal is really all about.

Granting such an animal any 'rights', when it has no intention of even considering your 'rights' is a good way to end up on the wrong end of the 'eat or be eaten' question.

You can quote from any source, from any age and you will never convince me that humankind will ever be anything other than animals.

I prefer the world be inhabited by animals like those of you who believe in laws and rights and higher ideals because believe it or not I believe in them also. But not at the expense of having one of the other animals at my throat.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

 

[rgraham666]

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.

 

[cloudy]

I am not well-versed in 'The Law'. A lot of what has been posted here is just the 'bandying of words' with no solutions sought or offered.

My problem:
A man burns down my house killing my family. His only reason being that his god is better than mine.

My Solution, My Law, My Right (not as an American) as a Man:
The man will be shot on sight and left to rot where he falls. His family will be killed. Any known or suspected accomplises, acquaintances, and others of a like belief will be hunted down and killed. Their families will be killed. Anyone who taught this man will be killed. The teacher's family will be killed. All students of the teacher and their families will be killed.

Then and only then will I submit to 'The Law' that you all bandy about.

I'm willing to bet that a jury of my peers would acquit me.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

how lovely.

Bet you think your god is better than theirs.

At the very least, you're an unashamed bigot.

 

[sr71plt]

Angered by evil? Far from it.

If you are confronted by an animal whose only purpose is to take your life, you can not placate it, you can not reason with it; but you can show it what being an animal is really all about.

Granting such an animal any 'rights', when it has no intention of even considering your 'rights' is a good way to end up on the wrong end of the 'eat or be eaten' question.

You can quote from any source, from any age and you will never convince me that humankind will ever be anything other than animals.

I prefer the world be inhabited by animals like those of you who believe in laws and rights and higher ideals because believe it or not I believe in them also. But not at the expense of having one of the other animals at my throat.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

Through the "six degrees of separation" concept, guess you'll wind up committing suicide.

 

[elbiscayne]

how lovely.

Bet you think your god is better than theirs.

At the very least, you're an unashamed bigot.

You'd lose cloudy. I'm a confirmed 'don't give a fuck' in that department. I'm really unbiased. I don't care who or what a person's god is until that god tells that person me and mine need to be dead. For some reason that makes me put them on the top of my list.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

 

[cloudy]

You'd lose cloudy. I'm a confirmed 'don't give a fuck' in that department. I'm really unbiased. I don't care who or what a person's god is until that god tells that person me and mine need to be dead. For some reason that makes me put them on the top of my list.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

you may tell yourself you're unbiased, but I can see the hate rolling off of you from here.

Thank goodness people like you are a minority.

 

[Pure]

cloudy, don't forget that the internet is an unparalleled forum for tough talkers. yes, a very few are dylans and klebolds, but the rest are often either mouthy 14 year old males with skills on the keyboard and no likelihood of budging from there, or 60 year old dissaffected males like amicus, with macho minds like the real 14 year olds.

 

[elbiscayne]

So far I'm the only one to offer a solution....unfavorable, but a solution all the same.

None of you can offer a different solution can you? If you could you would be in the Mid East showing people how to make smiley faces instead of bombs.

Come on! Put all that intellectual bullshit you've gathered over the years to work so that it doesn't end up being my solution.

I'd hate to think that you couldn't because way down deep in a place you don't want others to see, you know I'm right.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

 

[cloudy]

cloudy, don't forget that the internet is an unparalleled forum for tough talkers. yes, a very few are dylans and klebolds, but the rest are often either mouthy 14 year old males with skills on the keyboard and no likelihood of budging from there, or 60 year old dissaffected males like amicus, with macho minds like the real 14 year olds.

Indeed.

So far I'm the only one to offer a solution....unfavorable, but a solution all the same.

None of you can offer a different solution can you? If you could you would be in the Mid East showing people how to make smiley faces instead of bombs.

Come on! Put all that intellectual bullshit you've gathered over the years to work so that it doesn't end up being my solution.

I'd hate to think that you couldn't because way down deep in a place you don't want others to see, you know I'm right.

Tough talking 14-year-old, definitely.

You don't have to play quien es mas macho here...we don't care.

But, since you're so into killing and blowing things up and stuff, why the hell aren't you over there, putting your money where your mouth is, hmmmm?

Underage, for sure.

 

[sr71plt]

So far I'm the only one to offer a solution....unfavorable, but a solution all the same.

None of you can offer a different solution can you? If you could you would be in the Mid East showing people how to make smiley faces instead of bombs.

Come on! Put all that intellectual bullshit you've gathered over the years to work so that it doesn't end up being my solution.

I'd hate to think that you couldn't because way down deep in a place you don't want others to see, you know I'm right.

on the road to perdition
elbiscayne

What you've offered, of course, isn't a solution. And solutions for something of this magnitude are complex, and most are--and can only be--Band-Aids of various lengths of time. Nothing stays static. And as noted by Pure here, those who have "the" simple solution to anything like this are either very young or not very bright (or both)--they certainly aren't anyone who has ever had to deal with the reality of such situations.

 

[elbiscayne]

Indeed.



Tough talking 14-year-old, definitely.

You don't have to play quien es mas macho here...we don't care.

But, since you're so into killing and blowing things up and stuff, why the hell aren't you over there, putting your money where your mouth is, hmmmm?

Underage, for sure.

So judging by this and your other posts, your idea is that we insult them until they go away?

BRRRRRRR...WRONG AGAIN

 

[cloudy]

So judging by this and your other posts, your idea is that we insult them until they go away?

BRRRRRRR...WRONG AGAIN

yeah, your solution: "Let's kill 'em all!" is much better.



another ijit for my ignore list.

 

[elbiscayne]

What you've offered, of course, isn't a solution. And solutions for something of this magnitude are complex, and most are--and can only be--Band-Aids of various lengths of time. Nothing stays static. And as noted by Pure here, those who have "the" simple solution to anything like this are either very young or not very bright (or both)--they certainly aren't anyone who has ever had to deal with the reality of such situations.

It doesn't matter how many words you use. Calling someone stupid in a nice way is still calling them stupid.

The rest of your post boils down to "I have no idea".

 

[elbiscayne]

yeah, your solution: "Let's kill 'em all!" is much better.



another ijit for my ignore list.

BRRRRRRR WRONG AGAIN

Sticking your head in the sand won't make anything go away.

 

[rgraham666]

Hmm. For some reason this quotation floated to the surface of my mind.

"The surest way to become a pacifist is to join the infantry" - Bill Mauldin

I also recall a paragraph in the book Panzer Commander by Hans Von Luck. He noted that it was always the tough talking, gung ho types that cracked first. The quiet ones who just went about getting the job done kept getting the job done no matter what the pressure.

 

[sr71plt]

It doesn't matter how many words you use. Calling someone stupid in a nice way is still calling them stupid.

The rest of your post boils down to "I have no idea".

Well, OK, I thought your idea of a "solution" was really, really, really stupid. Ya caught me.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

My Solution, My Law, My Right (not as an American) as a Man:
The man will be shot on sight and left to rot where he falls. His family will be killed. Any known or suspected accomplises, acquaintances, and others of a like belief will be hunted down and killed. Their families will be killed. Anyone who taught this man will be killed. The teacher's family will be killed. All students of the teacher and their families will be killed.

A whole lotta killin' goin' on there . . .

Through the "six degrees of separation" concept, guess you'll wind up committing suicide.

LOL! Good point.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

My Uncle died in a terror attack on the Indian parliament on December 13, 2001. My friend's dad was severely injured in pakistan's last attempt at invasion of northern India at "Kargil". It would be hard for me to have an unbiased discussion on this, but I will attempt to be factual:

1. Hindu genocide:

Information provided by Dept. of Planning of Government of Bangla Desh, Encyclopedia Britannica, Senator Edward Kennedy's report to the U.S.Senate Judiciary Committee, Newsweek, New York Times,etc. This information and elementary math are used to show that indeed millions of Hindus were killed in East Pakistan in 1971. This article deals with slaughter of about 2.5 million Hindus in East Pakistan in 1971.

The Partition (India - Pakistan) pogroms killed hardly 0.3% of the Hindus (Living in pakistan), and though it annihilated the Hindu presence in all the provinces of Pakistan except for parts of Sindh and East Bengal, it did so mostly by putting the Hindus to flight (at least seven million) rather than by killing them (probably half a million). Likewise, the ethnic cleansing of a quarter million Hindus from Kashmir in 1990 followed the strategy of "killing one to expel a hundred", which is not the same thing as killing them all; in practice, about 1,500 were killed. Partition featured some local massacres of genocidal type, with the Sikhs as the most wanted victims, but in relative as well as absolute figures, this does not match the Holocaust.


2. Medieval Moslem Conquerers:

The invading sultans (in the Medieval Indian subcontinent) like Qutb ud-din Aibak and Ala-ud-din Khilji often offered clemency to the enemy after their defeat if they converted to Islam.

Qutb-ud-din Aybak initiated the construction of Delhi's earliest Muslim monuments, the Quwwat-ul-Islam mosque and the Qutub Minar. Historical records compiled by Muslim historian Maulana Hakim Saiyid Abdul Hai attest to the iconoclasm of Qutb-ud-din Aybak. The first mosque built in Delhi, the "Qubbat al-Islam" was built after demolishing the Hindu temple built previously by Prithvi Raj.

Aurangzeb (Another Medieval Moslem Ruler) is remembered for his Sunni fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. Strict adherence to Islam and Sharia (Islamic law)—as he interpreted them—were the foundations of his reign. He attempted to institute Sharia law throughout the empire, abandoning the religious openness of his predecessorsIt is said of his reign that many Hindu temples were defiled, destroyed, and replaced by mosques, a practice which had been largely discontinued since Babur's time. Many non-Muslims were supposedly converted to Islam. The hated Jizya, a tax imposed on non-Muslims, was reinstated during his rule. Forcible conversion of non-Muslims to Islam was a policy objective under Aurangzeb's rule.Aurangzeb's ultimate aim was conversion of non-Muslims to Islam. Whenever possible the emperor gave out robes of honor, cash gifts, and promotions to converts. It quickly became known that conversion was a sure way to the emperor's favor. During his reign, many hundreds -- perhaps many thousands -- of temples were desecrated: facades and interiors were defaced and their murtis (idols) looted. In many cases, temples were destroyed entirely; in numerous instances mosques were built on their foundations, sometimes using the same stones.His edicts show that he authorized and encouraged these acts. The history of the Mughal reign under Aurangzeb was chronicled as the Maāsir-i-ʻālamgiri, which states that:
1. Aurangzeb issued a general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and rename it as Islamabad[13][14]
2. In Khandela (Rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
3. In Multan and Thatta in Sind, Aurangzeb ordered the governors to "demolish the schools and temples of the infidels and with utmost urgency put down the teachings and practices of these religious misbelievers [Hindus]"[13][14]
4. In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.[14]
5. 66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
6. In Pandhpur, Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.[14]

I.A. - I wanted to acknowledge your post, although I'm not exactly sure what point you were making related to this thread. But your post deserves visibility just on its own terms. And the thread got kind of sidetracked by a subseguent one with far less substance.

 

[sr71plt]

I.A. - I wanted to acknowledge your post, although I'm not exactly sure what point you were making related to this thread. But your post deserves visibility just on its own terms. And the thread got kind of sidetracked by a subseguent one with far less substance.

Unfortunately the India-Pakistani issue is one of those "no one is lily white" problems that just moves between simmer and fester. Doonsbury had a zinger of a cartoon about several such situations (India-Pakistan, Greek Cypriot-Turkish Cypriot, Sunni-Shite; African tribals) last Sunday. A U.S. soldier and an Iraqi soldier on their way to raid a terrorist safehouse and the Iraqi saying he couldn't wait to shoot the place up for what "those people" did to his relatives. "When was this?" the American asks. Answer: 1367.

 

[rgraham666]

I'm remembering a newspaper column I read many years ago.

The writer posited that the human race could be divided into two groups; the 'rememberers' and the 'forgetters'.

The rememberers of one group will go, "We must hurt you because of what you did to us last week."

"Oh yeah?" say the rememberers on the other side. "Well we hurt you because of what you did last month!"

"That was in revenge for what you did last year!" shout the first group of rememberers.

And on and on it goes.

The forgetters forget about all that shit and just get on with their lives.