Gary Johnson

[BotanyBoy]

Because there is no place to move to, immigration doesn't work that way

That's fucking bullshit, I've seen lots of people leave the US and have an exit plan myself.

and this is my home.

Fair enough.

I won't abandon it to scum.

Well at least you're honest about your feelings for those who appreciate American values and tradition.

At least the rhetorical ones.

Reality is America is filled with folks who fucking hate freedom and worship the nanny state fucking with everyone but the elites as much as possible. You and most of California are a prime example.

Are you seriously saying that Johnson saying that doesn't bother you?

Yes....it doesn't bother me because he's totally irrelevant and with few exceptions almost entirely correct.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

That's fucking bullshit, I've seen lots of people leave the US and have an exit plan myself.



Fair enough.



Well at least you're honest about your feelings for those who appreciate American values and tradition.

At least the rhetorical ones.

Reality is America is filled with folks who fucking hate freedom and worship the nanny state fucking with everyone but the elites as much as possible. You and most of California are a prime example.



Yes....it doesn't bother me because he's totally irrelevant and with few exceptions almost entirely correct.

I agree with you that he's mostly irrelevant but Johnson didn't say, "with exceptions".

 

[BotanyBoy]

I agree with you that he's mostly irrelevant but Johnson didn't say, "with exceptions".

*shrug* he's still almost completely right.

Which is a lot better than taking the almost completely wrong side of that opinion just because it offends the partisan ideology.

(R)'s can talk about all the downsides of abortion till the cows come home...I still support a womans choice.

(D)'s can tell me the nanny state is just looking out for me by forcing me to give everyone my money because they know better. I'll still give them the fingah.

 

[Que]

Are you seriously saying that Johnson saying that doesn't bother you?

Are you seriously asking that about a self-evident truth?

Name a law that increases freedom for all and restricts it for none?

Mr. Renaud (and Johnson) are 100% correct. It is a balancing act. If you had an actual, worthwhile education you would know the following quote by someone as radical as Mr. Johnson and as learned as Mr. Renaud:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security."

We elect people to enact or repeal laws as we see fit. All laws that protect my freedom, restrict someone's freedom to impinge upon my freedom.

 

[Sean Renaud]

That's fucking bullshit, I've seen lots of people leave the US and have an exit plan myself.

Reality is America is filled with folks who fucking hate freedom and worship the nanny state fucking with everyone but the elites as much as possible. You and most of California are a prime example.

What worthwhile nation is taking my non highly educated ass? I've seen the immigration rules for most countries, I could get into some third world country sure but a "better" country. Fuck no.

I find the freedom worshiping traditional Americans to be silly in the extreme. But then again those people generally seem to disagree that a speed limit takes away my freedom to drive as fast as my car can go.

 

[Wrong Element]

"Every time you pass a law, it is a little bite out of freedom." Gary Johnson

I'm terrified that someone who holds a political office would say something like that.

Eh, it's just something conservatives tell each other. None of them seem to have much trouble making laws when they're actually in power.

I won't vote for him, but Johnson is infinitely more qualified to be President than Donald Trump.

 

[BotanyBoy]

What worthwhile nation is taking my non highly educated ass?

Ahhh the qualifier. Worthwhile is what you're looking for and what you make it.

I've seen the immigration rules for most countries, I could get into some third world country sure but a "better" country. Fuck no.

I bet if you filed as a fugee the EU would take you. They wouldn't want to be racist and you would get max nanny state.

I find the freedom worshiping traditional Americans to be silly in the extreme. But then again those people generally seem to disagree that a speed limit takes away my freedom to drive as fast as my car can go.

Obviously.

See I agree, I don't think there should be speed limits. Certainly not everywhere.

 

[Que]

Eh, it's just something conservatives tell each other. None of them seem to have much trouble making laws when they're actually in power.

I won't vote for him, but Johnson is infinitely more qualified to be President than Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton.

Well said, once your blind partisanship was corrected.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Ahhh the qualifier. Worthwhile is what you're looking for and what you make it.



I bet if you filed as a fugee the EU would take you. They wouldn't want to be racist and you would get max nanny state.



Obviously.

See I agree, I don't think there should be speed limits. Certainly not everywhere.

Yes, that's a qualifer but it's a pretty big one. Akin to, why don't you buy that car? "It doesn't have an engine." QUALIFIER! I mean I could sneak into just about any African nation and I doubt they'd care. Hell if I snuck into North Korea I'd probably be a celebrity as long as I was willing to badmouth America.

I can't file as a refugee. That's not how it works. And as shitty as America can be towards minorities we aren't exactly being hunted down. Hell they barely take people from nations that ARE.

I'm sure there are stretches of nowhere that having no speedlimit is acceptable. And in practice that's the truth for much of Texas and as far as I could tell the speed limit on the Grapevine is whatever speed the two eighteen wheelers you can't go around are going.

And I do believe in speed limits, and lots of other laws great and small.

Freedom is not some absolute good that can never be sacrificed. Never was.

 

[patient1]

I would suggest lowering the polling threshold from 15% to 10%, as a start.

I quite agree.

There's no reason they can't have their counter debate themselves. I'm sure the networks would carry it. They have to get on state ballots, though. I don't know how they are doing on that front.

Last time Johnson was on ballots in 48 states. Stein was on 30 or so, mostly blue states. Both parties are making dedicated efforts this time, but just as states have been known to change voter registration requirements to make things difficult for voters they wished to suppress, ballot access requirements have gotten more difficult as well.

I believe the Greens were denied in North Carolina. Like I said, they seem to be more of a Blue state party, but they have collected 10s of thousands of signatures above the requirement in some states. In PA, the Libertarians won a court battle about the changing requirements. In NY, the Libertarians have to come up with 10K or so more signatures.

In short, I expect the Libertarians to be on all the ballots, and the Greens to be 5-15 states short, but it is bleeding them both of cash paying lawyers and extra petition carriers to meet the new requirements.

"Every time you pass a law, it is a little bite out of freedom." Gary Johnson

I'm terrified that someone who holds a political office would say something like that.

Lots of people complain about crony capitalism, but few people other than Gary Johnson point out that Crony capitalism is written into regulations by lobbyists, to make it difficult for start up competitors ( sounds like the election laws, doesn't it?) , into the "free trade deals" and the tax code. All of those things are thicker than they need to be because they include special advantages for cronies.

The Presidential oath of office is to The Constitution. ClinTrump has an a la carte approach to the Bill of Rights. That is far scarier than an elected official saying every law takes a bite out of freedom, because that's true, and they would all do well to remember that.

There is no Libertarian caucus. Gary will have to build support, in Congress and with the populace for every change he tries to make. He won't riding in like Regan with freshman legislators.

In that regard, electing a constitutionalist without a legislative block as president is the safest possible choice for four years.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Are you seriously asking that about a self-evident truth?

Name a law that increases freedom for all and restricts it for none?

Mr. Renaud (and Johnson) are 100% correct. It is a balancing act. If you had an actual, worthwhile education you would know the following quote by someone as radical as Mr. Johnson and as learned as Mr. Renaud:

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither. He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security."

We elect people to enact or repeal laws as we see fit. All laws that protect my freedom, restrict someone's freedom to impinge upon my freedom.

The 13th Amendment
19th Amendment
1964 Civil Rights Act.


That's just off the top of my head.

 

[Sean Renaud]

The 13th Amendment
19th Amendment
1964 Civil Rights Act.


That's just off the top of my head.

The right to discriminate against people is a freedom.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yes, that's a qualifer but it's a pretty big one. Akin to, why don't you buy that car? "It doesn't have an engine." QUALIFIER! I mean I could sneak into just about any African nation and I doubt they'd care. Hell if I snuck into North Korea I'd probably be a celebrity as long as I was willing to badmouth America.

There's a lot of in between there you're ignoring...I have to believe willfully to make your point which just helps me make mine.

You're not leaving because the USA is pretty fucking awesome and there really isn't anywhere better for you to go unless you got a pair of titanium nuts.

I can't file as a refugee. That's not how it works. And as shitty as America can be towards minorities we aren't exactly being hunted down. Hell they barely take people from nations that ARE.

Sure it is.....you're totally being hunted down don't you listen to the news and your fellow liberals? Evil white males, the fucking scourge of humanity kill minorities 24/7 day and night like nazis. Western civilization is HORRIBLE and the worst thing that ever happened to humanity!!

The EU would take ya.

I'm sure there are stretches of nowhere that having no speedlimit is acceptable. And in practice that's the truth for much of Texas and as far as I could tell the speed limit on the Grapevine is whatever speed the two eighteen wheelers you can't go around are going.

Pretty much. But they shouldn't be able to nail me 1800 bucks for doing it is my point.

And I do believe in speed limits, and lots of other laws great and small.

Yea, some are appropriate...but we simply don't need as many as we have, a huge majority of which are there to generate revenue for the state or to protect corporate interest (fuck poor people) and that's wrong.

Freedom is not some absolute good that can never be sacrificed. Never was.

I don't think it is. But the wholesale hatred and condemnation of it is outright anti-American, and it's all over both sides of the isle.

1964 Civil Rights Act.

That's just off the top of my head.

Yeaa....the right for people to discriminate against others is a freedom.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Yeah, as bad as things are and lets be clear as flippant as you're being about it the police in this nation ARE a problem. We do have white privilege and male privilege that needs to be worked on, but the EU isn't going to take people complaining about whites. HAve you not seen how they treat minorities?

 

[Que]

The right to discriminate against people is a freedom.

Indeed. As a country we decided to give up some of our right to free association in an effort to quell the discriminatory practices of some.

Abolitionists surely worked against the property rights of slaveholders.

Just because these are fine examples of when our better nature caused us to relinquish freedoms for the greater good, doesn't make Johnson's statement any less true.

Most laws benefit someone, some corporation, or some group whilst depriving others of freedom for far less noble reasons.

 

[Que]

Btw. For now it is completely legal to discriminate within the walls of your own home. You can advertise on your dwelling that you are seeking for example a roommate or border but no blacks, Jews, gays or women need apply.

You cannot place such an ad for publication. That is illegal.

Someday through either case law or some sort of statutory revision it could become illegal to discriminate on your private property...when that happens another freedom is gone that might be a good thing, but it is not more freedom.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Indeed. As a country we decided to give up some of our right to free association in an effort to quell the discriminatory practices of some.

Abolitionists surely worked against the property rights of slaveholders.

Just because these are fine examples of when our better nature caused us to relinquish freedoms for the greater good, doesn't make Johnson's statement any less true.

Most laws benefit someone, some corporation, or some group whilst depriving others of freedom for far less noble reasons.

My goal is not to disprove Johnson's claim. I agree with him. I simply arrive at different destination.

As I stated above Freedom and Safety are opposing forces. In every situation you have to choose which one you want and which you don't and why. I promise you there are lot of people in Florida who very much wish that the freedom to own any damn pet you want didn't included say anacondas. I use this as an example because I think most of us would agree that what you keep as a pet is really low on the list of things the government should be concerned about. A quick look into invasive species will tell you that even goldfish get out of hand incredibly quickly.

I was merely shutting down Daily's argument that these laws increased rights for everybody while restricting nobody.

As for your claim that most laws blatantly help this person or that I doubt it but that is a conversation I wish we as a nation would have. The internet makes it easy. I don't know how many laws there actually are in the US but I'd bet money that it would take less than a year for America collectively to read them all and then narrow down the ones that need to go.

Note: I don't necessarily think that favoring one group or another is bad depending on what it means, why and a lot of other details. But I'm more than willing to look at them. And in general I'm in favor of things that limit the big guys.

 

[Que]

My goal is not to disprove Johnson's claim. I agree with him. I simply arrive at different destination.

As I stated above Freedom and Safety are opposing forces. In every situation you have to choose which one you want and which you don't and why. I promise you there are lot of people in Florida who very much wish that the freedom to own any damn pet you want didn't included say anacondas. I use this as an example because I think most of us would agree that what you keep as a pet is really low on the list of things the government should be concerned about. A quick look into invasive species will tell you that even goldfish get out of hand incredibly quickly.

I was merely shutting down Daily's argument that these laws increased rights for everybody while restricting nobody.

As for your claim that most laws blatantly help this person or that I doubt it but that is a conversation I wish we as a nation would have. The internet makes it easy. I don't know how many laws there actually are in the US but I'd bet money that it would take less than a year for America collectively to read them all and then narrow down the ones that need to go.

Note: I don't necessarily think that favoring one group or another is bad depending on what it means, why and a lot of other details. But I'm more than willing to look at them. And in general I'm in favor of things that limit the big guys.

By the time you get down into the weeds with such things as bureaucratic case law and administrative law decisions and municipal building codes and all of that I don't think any human could read all of it in their entire life time.

I absolutely agree that at times it is perfectly reasonable for society to decide to limit certain person's rights in an effort to accomplish civic goals, promote safety, etc.

A lot of it can be done in ways that don't involve the government though one of the classic examples I've heard of is the Underwriters Laboratory looking for the UL symbol assures us that that particular device is going to be safe to plug into your wall, someone with qualifications has looked at it and decided it was safe. Much better than any government bureaucracy could ever do.

I think we probably have enough laws on the books right now for just about any foreseeable situation. They either need to be repealed, slightly updated, or enforced, if they're on the books and nobody's using them.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Yeah, as bad as things are and lets be clear as flippant as you're being about it the police in this nation ARE a problem. We do have white privilege and male privilege that needs to be worked on, but the EU isn't going to take people complaining about whites.

What white and male privilege needs to be worked on and how do you think we should work on it?

As a minority who gets a fuck ton more white privilege than white people I'm curious because none of the shits on TV have ever answered this question worth a fuck.

HAve you not seen how they treat minorities?

Hey hey hey....the USA is the worst ever ok. Don't be a flag waving publican' now.

 

[patient1]

The 13th Amendment
19th Amendment
1964 Civil Rights Act.


That's just off the top of my head.

Don't worry, Gary Johnson supports the Constitution in it's entirety and the 64 Civil Rights Act.

 

[BotanyBoy]

Don't worry, Gary Johnson supports the Constitution in it's entirety and the 64 Civil Rights Act.

Not possible he's not Hillary, he's racist and hates women because anyone not (D) and supporting Hillary is evil.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Just reading a piece by Frank Luntz...

Which one it is is not important, there was something in it that just caused a spark of thought (though not to tease you here is the link: http://time.com/4424053/frank-luntz-the-myth-of-the-undecided-voter/ )

If Gary does not do or say something soon that will require clarification, you know, cause the press to pay attention, did he really do/say that? (Now we've got to know, we've got to cover him.), then he's done: period.

He needs to take a page out of Trump's playbook and say something absurd like, we must open the borders to anyone who wants to come here, make them citizens upon demand and get them involved with the economic, welfare and political processes...

Something. Anything!

 

[toubab]

Just reading a piece by Frank Luntz...

Which one it is is not important, there was something in it that just caused a spark of thought (though not to tease you here is the link: http://time.com/4424053/frank-luntz-the-myth-of-the-undecided-voter/ )

If Gary does not do or say something soon that will require clarification, you know, cause the press to pay attention, did he really do/say that? (Now we've got to know, we've got to cover him.), then he's done: period.

He needs to take a page out of Trump's playbook and say something absurd like, we must open the borders to anyone who wants to come here, make them citizens upon demand and get them involved with the economic, welfare and political processes...

Something. Anything!

No, Trump seems to be one of those guys who could fall into a pile of shit and come out smelling like roses. Not everybody can do that. Most people would come out smelling like shit.

 

[Sean Renaud]

What white and male privilege needs to be worked on and how do you think we should work on it?

As a minority who gets a fuck ton more white privilege than white people I'm curious because none of the shits on TV have ever answered this question worth a fuck.



Hey hey hey....the USA is the worst ever ok. Don't be a flag waving publican' now.

The entire legal system from top to bottom.
Getting loans for housing.
General treatment by the media.

You simply don't see it because you are on the + side of things and think that this treatment is normal when it is not. And a huge step would be getting people to universally acknowledge that it does exist.

 

[patient1]

Just reading a piece by Frank Luntz...

Which one it is is not important, there was something in it that just caused a spark of thought (though not to tease you here is the link: http://time.com/4424053/frank-luntz-the-myth-of-the-undecided-voter/ )

If Gary does not do or say something soon that will require clarification, you know, cause the press to pay attention, did he really do/say that? (Now we've got to know, we've got to cover him.), then he's done: period.

He needs to take a page out of Trump's playbook and say something absurd like, we must open the borders to anyone who wants to come here, make them citizens upon demand and get them involved with the economic, welfare and political processes...

Something. Anything!

Do you think "Taxation is theft!" would do it?

I thought this part was particularly interesting. -

7) What will be done on Day One? Telling voters exactly what you will do moments after being sworn in is candid, clear and concise. It tells voters in no uncertain terms whether you sympathize and empathize with their own hopes, dreams and fears. Undecideds want their eventual presidential hopeful to deliver meaningful change, not meaningless sound bites. The first presidential priority matters even more to swing voters than principle and policy matters to partisans.

****

What would Gary Johnson do right away? I've read or listened to some of his interviews every day since he secured the nomination Memorial Day weekend.
Among the things he has mentioned doing quickly-

*Auditing The Federal Reserve. He thinks that if it is to continue it would be strictly in the role of fighting inflation.

* De-listing marijuana as a Class I narcotic, as a majority of states and the District of Columbia have legalized it for medical and/or recreational use, and probably more will by referendum this fall. Not only is it the will of the people, it's a 10th Amendment issue.

* Stop the NSA from eavesdropping and reading e-mails without warrants. No more bulk collection.

* Not on the 1st day, but in the first 100 days, he will submit a balanced budget proposal. Not some 5-year or 10 year plan that supposedly balances the budget on the next guy's watch, but on his first budget.