Glaswegian's Suffer Terrorist Attack!

[starrkers]

I've been slack and am half stung, or I wouldn't make quite such an arse of myself, posting without research.
Having said that, is there any main reason for this outbreak of nastiness in GB, or is it just a welcome to the world gift to the new PM?

 

[amicus]

Your guess is as good as anyone's.

amicus...

 

[Boxlicker101]

Or something of the history of Christianity?

Christianity was adopted as the official religion of the Roman Empire in early 4th C. When Constantine converted to christianity in 381AD the Roman Empire set in train for 'Christian just war' which, by virtue of being fought by the Faithful, could be regarded as Holy.

The Prophet Mohammed died at Mecca in 632AD and Calif Umar (successor to the Prophet as Commander of the Faithful) entered Jerusalem in February 638, part of the long Arab war to conquer the Fertile Crescent that began in Syria and Palestine (635-41), Persia (637-42 and Egypt (640-42). In accordance with the terms of the surrender, the shrines, churches and synagogues of the Christians and the Jews were left untouched. Indeed the Monastery Church of St Catherine on Mount Sinai was started in 527 and construction continued extending the building well into the period of Arab domination. The Roman Empire was pretty much in disarray by that time, and over the following century Muslim leaders conquered much of the Middle East, the Byzantine provinces of North Africa in 698 and Visigothic Spain (711-13).

The question of the extent of Arabization and Islamicization of conquered lands is obscure. Religious tolerance was guaranteed by early Islamic texts. Sura 109 of the Koran declared: 'Unbelievers, I do not serve what you worship, nor do you serve what I worship. I shall never serve what you worship nor will you ever serve what I worship. You have your religion, and I have mine.'

Meanwhile, while all this was going on in land far removed from the Middle East, Christianity was making its slow haul to envelope Europe aided by St Jerome's Latin translation of the Scriptures (circa 405AD) - the Vulgate - which became the standard text of the Bible for the medieval West. By the 8th Century, the ruling aristocracies of Italy, Gaul, Spain and the eastern British Isles had all but adopted orthodox Roman Christianity, not without a deal of resistance, itself not confined to Christian v's Pagan but also Christian v's Christian. Charlemagne took the mantle of medieval Christian warrier renewing the Roman empire as a Christian imperium in 800AD when crowned Emporer by the Pope in Rome. This was about the time Viking marauders swept down upon Europe from the north, it was another two hundred and fifty years before they were subdued and converted to Christianity. Attentions turned to the Middle East, the first Crusade taking place in 1096 after thirty years of argument over who would lead the onslaught and how it would be financed.

Sources: 'Gods War' - Christopher Tyerman; 'Europe - a history' - Norman Davies.

You might have mentioned the conquest of Sicily by the the Arab/Muslims and how they crossed the Pyrenees to invade the Frankish Kingdom, until defeated by Charles Martel at the Battle of Tours.

The Muslims did pay lip service to tolerating some of the Jews and Christians in some of the lands they conquered but they treated them as subhuman and taxed them heavily and pretty much treated them at least as badly as the Spanish later treated the Native Americans in North America.

Islam, the "Religion of Peace" spent the first 400 years of its existence in almost constant wars of conquest against their neighbors. The only things that stopped them were military defeats.

 

[neonlyte]

The Muslims did pay lip service to tolerating some of the Jews and Christians in some of the lands they conquered but they treated them as subhuman and taxed them heavily and pretty much treated them at least as badly as the Spanish later treated the Native Americans in North America.

How can you possibly know this? How can you state it as a fact?

Islam, the "Religion of Peace" spent the first 400 years of its existence in almost constant wars of conquest against their neighbors. The only things that stopped them were military defeats.

First 400 years of its existence, 630 to 1030, is that the period you are talking about? Arab conquests of their neigbours began in 630, at that time Christianity was still in its infancy. The crumbling of the Roman Empire left a political gap filled by Arabs who only became Muslims later in the 7th Century following the life and death of the Prophet Mohammad. Christianity only became a 'force' in the 9th Century. Sure there were Christians in Arab lands but historical records do not show any particularly harsh treatment or persecution by Arabs. Conversely, Christians were harshly treated by western and central Europeans (largely pagan until 800). Virtually all of the early Christian Martyrs were killed by their European kin and not by Arabs.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
The Muslims did pay lip service to tolerating some of the Jews and Christians in some of the lands they conquered but they treated them as subhuman and taxed them heavily and pretty much treated them at least as badly as the Spanish later treated the Native Americans in North America.

How can you possibly know this? How can you state it as a fact?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Islam, the "Religion of Peace" spent the first 400 years of its existence in almost constant wars of conquest against their neighbors. The only things that stopped them were military defeats.

First 400 years of its existence, 630 to 1030, is that the period you are talking about? Arab conquests of their neigbours began in 630, at that time Christianity was still in its infancy. The crumbling of the Roman Empire left a political gap filled by Arabs who only became Muslims later in the 7th Century following the life and death of the Prophet Mohammad. Christianity only became a 'force' in the 9th Century. Sure there were Christians in Arab lands but historical records do not show any particularly harsh treatment or persecution by Arabs. Conversely, Christians were harshly treated by western and central Europeans (largely pagan until 800). Virtually all of the early Christian Martyrs were killed by their European kin and not by Arabs.

First, how can we know anything? Certaily none of us were there, but there are some highly respected histories of the period, and we can know by reading them.

The first Muslim conquest would have begun in 624 and it was Medina attacking and conquering Mecca. If you need to know more, you can do as I did and google "Muslim Conquests". I said 400 years but it was actually over 1,000 years, and included outright genocide in Afghasnistan and parts of the Indian subcontinent.

"Religion of Peace" my ass. "Religion of Death and Enslavement" is more like it, although I will concede that Mohammed did preach peace among believers, while he called for death to heretics.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
The Muslims did pay lip service to tolerating some of the Jews and Christians in some of the lands they conquered but they treated them as subhuman and taxed them heavily and pretty much treated them at least as badly as the Spanish later treated the Native Americans in North America.

How can you possibly know this? How can you state it as a fact?
Quote:

Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Islam, the "Religion of Peace" spent the first 400 years of its existence in almost constant wars of conquest against their neighbors. The only things that stopped them were military defeats.

First 400 years of its existence, 630 to 1030, is that the period you are talking about? Arab conquests of their neigbours began in 630, at that time Christianity was still in its infancy. The crumbling of the Roman Empire left a political gap filled by Arabs who only became Muslims later in the 7th Century following the life and death of the Prophet Mohammad. Christianity only became a 'force' in the 9th Century. Sure there were Christians in Arab lands but historical records do not show any particularly harsh treatment or persecution by Arabs. Conversely, Christians were harshly treated by western and central Europeans (largely pagan until 800). Virtually all of the early Christian Martyrs were killed by their European kin and not by Arabs.

First, how can we know anything? Certaily none of us were there, but there are some highly respected histories of the period, and we can know by reading them.

The first Muslim conquest would have begun in 624 and it was Medina attacking and conquering Mecca. If you need to know more, you can do as I did and google "Muslim Conquests". I said 400 years but it was actually over 1,000 years, and included outright genocide in Afghanistan and parts of the Indian subcontinent.

"Religion of Peace" my ass. "Religion of Death and Enslavement" is more like it, although I will concede that Mohammed did preach peace among believers, while he called for death or enslavement of others.

As for the treatment of Christians, I am primarily referring to the treatment of Copts in Egypt.

 

[Eluard]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
The Muslims did pay lip service to tolerating some of the Jews and Christians in some of the lands they conquered but they treated them as subhuman and taxed them heavily and pretty much treated them at least as badly as the Spanish later treated the Native Americans in North America.



First, how can we know anything? Certaily none of us were there, but there are some highly respected histories of the period, and we can know by reading them.

The first Muslim conquest would have begun in 624 and it was Medina attacking and conquering Mecca. If you need to know more, you can do as I did and google "Muslim Conquests". I said 400 years but it was actually over 1,000 years, and included outright genocide in Afghanistan and parts of the Indian subcontinent.

"Religion of Peace" my ass. "Religion of Death and Enslavement" is more like it, although I will concede that Mohammed did preach peace among believers, while he called for death or enslavement of others.

As for the treatment of Christians, I am primarily referring to the treatment of Copts in Egypt.

Finally, someone who has read something other than the awful Muslim apologetics that now litter the academic landscape! Since its inception Islam has been engaged in a continual war of conquest and subjugation against the West, with only token resistance from Western nations. Political correctness now assists this war of subjugation by continually pretending that the Western nations were the real aggressors. They are not and never have been.

Neonlyte, your idea that there were almost no Christians until 800 AD is woefully misinformed.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101
The Muslims did pay lip service to tolerating some of the Jews and Christians in some of the lands they conquered but they treated them as subhuman and taxed them heavily and pretty much treated them at least as badly as the Spanish later treated the Native Americans in North America.



First, how can we know anything? Certaily none of us were there, but there are some highly respected histories of the period, and we can know by reading them.

The first Muslim conquest would have begun in 624 and it was Medina attacking and conquering Mecca. If you need to know more, you can do as I did and google "Muslim Conquests". I said 400 years but it was actually over 1,000 years, and included outright genocide in Afghanistan and parts of the Indian subcontinent.

"Religion of Peace" my ass. "Religion of Death and Enslavement" is more like it, although I will concede that Mohammed did preach peace among believers, while he called for death or enslavement of others.

As for the treatment of Christians, I am primarily referring to the treatment of Copts in Egypt.

Finally, someone who has read something other than the awful Muslim apologetics that now litter the academic landscape! Since its inception Islam has been engaged in a continual war of conquest and subjugation against the West, with only token resistance from Western nations. Political correctness now assists this war of subjugation by continually pretending that the Western nations were the real aggressors. They are not and never have been.

Neonlyte, your idea that there were almost no Christians until 800 AD is woefully misinformed.

Christianity was very well established long before 800. That date marks the coronation of Charlemagne as the Holy Roman emperor, which included Italy and most of Central and Western Europe. Most of the Middle East was Christian until the Muslim invasions, and the murder and enslavement of millions. You can google "History of Christianity" to get more details.

The Muslims treated Hindus even worse than they treated Christians or Jews. Afghanistan used to be a Hindu nation, or area, until they were all murdered or driven out by the Muslim invaders.

I'm not defending Christianity, which later became almost as bad as Islam, but the early spread of thre religion was done by missionaries, not conquerors. After 1492, that pretty much changed, and there were a good many wars fought in Europe with religion as a pretense, although they were mostly about conquests. But Islam has never been anything but a religion of blood and death and conquest, from its inception to the present. Basically, they believe "Love your neighbor if he is of your faith. If he isn't, kill him and enslave his children." All in the name of Allah, of course.

 

[neonlyte]

Neonlyte, your idea that there were almost no Christians until 800 AD is woefully misinformed.

Don't put words in my mouth. Read the fucking post instead of spouting off the top of your head. The first line says the Romans Empire adopted Christianity in the 4th Century!

 

[Eluard]

You really should read you own post — not only do you not know what you are talking about you don't even know what you've said! Here is some of your ignorant nonsense.

Christianity only became a 'force' in the 9th Century. Sure there were Christians in Arab lands but historical records do not show any particularly harsh treatment or persecution by Arabs. Conversely, Christians were harshly treated by western and central Europeans (largely pagan until 800). Virtually all of the early Christian Martyrs were killed by their European kin and not by Arabs.

Western and central Europeans were not 'largely pagan' until 800. Christianity did not become a 'force' in the 9th Century — it was a force in the 4th Century.

Try reading something on the Byzantine empire: you might be surprised.

 

[Pure]

Since its inception Islam has been engaged in a continual war of conquest and subjugation against the West, with only token resistance from Western nations.

So many errors here, it would take a book to catalog. For example, iirc, it took at least a couple centuries for the Muslims to get control of most of Spain, and much longer--and more lethal-- for the Xtian reconquest.

Further, I doubt anyone tops the W European Xtian nations in "subjugation and conquest" and enforcement of religion... against large parts of the whole fucking world (e.g., Africa). also, unlike similar empire such as Genghiz Khans, much of this "empire", in slightly transmuted form, still exists.

Incidentally, friend, what does this have to do with the Scottish bombing?

Ami, I understand: Like George Bush, Ami requires an Islamic enemy to justify his weird and repressive measures.

===

PS, Eluard, i very much liked the first poem you posted, Mar 30. very fresh in its metaphors. did not see it until today!

 

[Boxlicker101]

Since its inception Islam has been engaged in a continual war of conquest and subjugation against the West, with only token resistance from Western nations.

So many errors here, it would take a book to catalog. For example, iirc, it took at least a couple centuries for the Muslims to get control of most of Spain, and much longer--and more lethal-- for the Xtian reconquest.

Further, I doubt anyone tops the W European Xtian nations in "subjugation and conquest" and enforcement of religion... against large parts of the whole fucking world (e.g., Africa). also, unlike similar empire such as Genghiz Khans, much of this "empire", in slightly transmuted form, still exists.

Incidentally, friend, what does this have to do with the Scottish bombing?

Ami, I understand: Like George Bush, Ami requires an Islamic enemy to justify his weird and repressive measures.

===

PS, Eluard, i very much liked the first poem you posted, Mar 30. very fresh in its metaphors. did not see it until today!

I would be hesitant to call the resistance "token". The Battle of Tours and The Battle of Vienna were certainly not token resistance. Iberia didn't put up much of a fight, but the rest of the West did. Except for that and Sicily, the Muslims did not have much military success in their attacks against Western Europe.

Here is a time-table for the early Islamic conquests. As you can see, most of the Iberian Peninsula took about seven years. The reconquest took much longer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests#Conquest_of_Hispania:_711-718

I am inclined to agree with what you say about the subjugation of much of the world by western nations, especially Spain, after they overthrew the Muslim conquerors. Except for that, though, Europeans did not impose religion change on the lands they conquered. I am a little puzzled as to why you singled out Africa. South America would have been a better example.

Furthermore, I doubt if any individual European conqueror ever controlled as much area as Genghis Khan or Tamerlane, both Asians.

ETA: This has nothing to do with the attempted bombings in London and Glasgow, except to point out how Islam has almost always been at war with the West.

 

[R. Richard]

I am inclined to agree with what you say about the subjugation of much of the world by western nations, especially Spain, after they overthrew the Muslim conquerors. Except for that, though, Europeans did not impose religion change on the lands they conquered. I am a little puzzled as to why you singled out Africa. South America would have been a better example.

The Europeans did impose religion change upon the 'savages' they conquered. Especially Spain gave the conquered a simple choice, 'Become Catholic or die.' [To this day, there are 'underground' religions that have Catholic trappings, but a radically different faith underneath. The voodoo religions are a prime example.] The Protestants also converted 'the heathens.' In most cases the Protestants did not offer the convert of die choice, instead they bribed 'the heathens.'

 

[sethp]

all terrorists are dumbasses. and all muslims are....

 

[Pure]

pretty much the same as Xtians.

 

[sethp]

yeah but xtians don't kill each other anymore. I mean I understand the war in Iraq but..that's not the same as terrorism. but muslims don't even target soldiers anymore..other than in Iraq and you could say they are fighting to free their country maybe..

but terrorist target women and children? all terrorists are muslims..hmmm

 

[Eluard]

PS, Eluard, i very much liked the first poem you posted, Mar 30. very fresh in its metaphors. did not see it until today!

Thanks Pure — I almost forgot that this was a Lit site.

You can find some more submitted "unofficially" on this terrific thread:

https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=521799&page=3

 

[ishtat]

!

Finally, someone who has read something other than the awful Muslim apologetics that now litter the academic landscape! Since its inception Islam has been engaged in a continual war of conquest and subjugation against the West, with only token resistance from Western nations. Political correctness now assists this war of subjugation by continually pretending that the Western nations were the real aggressors. They are not and never have been.

Neonlyte, your idea that there were almost no Christians until 800 AD is woefully misinformed.

No, it is you that needs to read more carefully . Neo referred to Christian "force" and particularly in Central Europe. He was correct. Lithuania for example did not become Christian until the 13th and 14th centuries . Mediterranean Europe was officially Christian after Constantine but unofficially and especially in rural areas Christianity proceeded much slower.

 

[Eluard]

No, it is you that needs to read more carefully . Neo referred to Christian "force" and particularly in Central Europe. He was correct. Lithuania for example did not become Christian until the 13th and 14th centuries . Mediterranean Europe was officially Christian after Constantine but unofficially and especially in rural areas Christianity proceeded much slower.

'Force' is a rather vague term, and we could argue all day about whether this claim is true without reaching an agreement. I still hold that the claim is false, as it was stated, but I'm happy to let the matter go.

Peace.