Gun Controll question.

[R. Richard]

R. Richard,

Is it the Police who are at fault here, or is it the judges and the Court System that is at fault here?

It is not the Police, or Scumbags as you call them, that are letting these guys Plea Bargain or walk free. It is rather the Jdges and the Courts and the Lawyers. It is the people who vote for them and vote for the laws.

One of the comments posted today made mention of people being let free early because of the over crowding of our jails and prisons. Why are they overcrowded? It is not the Police who are voting in the people who make the laws that cause the overcrowding. It is all of us.

I can't tell you the number of times I have heard friends of mne who are Police complain about the stupidity of the laws they have to enforce. I can't tell you the number of times I have listened to them complain bitterly about some scum sucker they have finally caught only to see them on the street later that day.

You can't blame the police for the problems, they are only doing their jobs. Instead blame the courts, the legislature and finally ourselves.

Cat

Cat:
I see the whole 'justice' system as scumbags. The police are merely the front people for the system.

That said, I have had a lot of contact with the police scumbags. I continually hear the complaints that the scumbags you know claim. In most cases I find that the complaints are not valid. The scumbags opften take shortcuts in the legal process and then see their 'righteous arrest' go into the toilet. Then the scumbags blame the rest of the system.

However, only the police scumbags have the solution to the problem. If there is a judge or prosecutor who is misusing the system, all the scumbags have to do is publically deny service to the person causing the problem. The scumbags are not responsible for providing enforcement [under the law,] what they do is voluntary. [Check it out, the law is quite clear in the matter,]

 

[SeaCat]

Cat:
I see the whole 'justice' system as scumbags. The police are merely the front people for the system.

That said, I have had a lot of contact with the police scumbags. I continually hear the complaints that the scumbags you know claim. In most cases I find that the complaints are not valid. The scumbags opften take shortcuts in the legal process and then see their 'righteous arrest' go into the toilet. Then the scumbags blame the rest of the system.

However, only the police scumbags have the solution to the problem. If there is a judge or prosecutor who is misusing the system, all the scumbags have to do is publically deny service to the person causing the problem. The scumbags are not responsible for providing enforcement [under the law,] what they do is voluntary. [Check it out, the law is quite clear in the matter,]

Yes . Richard, just as my choice to take care of people with all sorts of ailments is voluntary. I don't have to take are of people with Cancer or Aids or any number if diseases. Yet if I chose not to take care of these people I am out of a job, just as a Police Officer who refuses to enforce the laws he is charged to enforce is without a job. A police officer doesn't chose the judges, nor does he or she chose the judge his case is going to be seen in front of. (A lot of cops wish they could chose the judges their cases were seen in front of. They make no bones about it.)

The cure is not the Police, it is the normal man on the street with the vote. It is the normal man on the street who chooses who is in power.

Cat

 

[R. Richard]

Yes . Richard, just as my choice to take care of people with all sorts of ailments is voluntary. I don't have to take are of people with Cancer or Aids or any number if diseases. Yet if I chose not to take care of these people I am out of a job, just as a Police Officer who refuses to enforce the laws he is charged to enforce is without a job. A police officer doesn't chose the judges, nor does he or she chose the judge his case is going to be seen in front of. (A lot of cops wish they could chose the judges their cases were seen in front of. They make no bones about it.)

The cure is not the Police, it is the normal man on the street with the vote. It is the normal man on the street who chooses who is in power.

Cat

Never mind federal law. Here is 'The Law' as determined solely by the LAPD.

LAPD Manual:
As set forth in the Manual, Special Order 40 provides that “undocumented alien status in itself is not a matter for police action. It is, therefore, incumbent upon all employees of this Department to make a personal commitment to equal enforcement of the law and service to the public, regardless of alien status.” Special Order 40 precludes LAPD officers from initiating “police action with the objective of discovering the alien status of a person,” and from arresting or booking a person for “illegal entry” into the United States.

 

[SeaCat]

Never mind federal law. Here is 'The Law' as determined solely by the LAPD.

LAPD Manual:
As set forth in the Manual, Special Order 40 provides that “undocumented alien status in itself is not a matter for police action. It is, therefore, incumbent upon all employees of this Department to make a personal commitment to equal enforcement of the law and service to the public, regardless of alien status.” Special Order 40 precludes LAPD officers from initiating “police action with the objective of discovering the alien status of a person,” and from arresting or booking a person for “illegal entry” into the United States.

And how does this pertain to Gun Control?

As I read the special order it is stating that officers are not allowed to stop and check people for their residential status. They are also not allowed to disregard crimes against those who are here illegally.

In other words they have to enforce the laws for and against all who are unde thir control or protection regardless of their residential status. (In other words they can't disregard a mugging of a person just because they can't show proper residential papers.)

Cat

 

[R. Richard]

And how does this pertain to Gun Control?

As I read the special order it is stating that officers are not allowed to stop and check people for their residential status. They are also not allowed to disregard crimes against those who are here illegally.

In other words they have to enforce the laws for and against all who are unde thir control or protection regardless of their residential status. (In other words they can't disregard a mugging of a person just because they can't show proper residential papers.)

Cat

It is an official scumbag policy to disregard at least one federal law. It is in reference to your statement that disregarding their job would cause the scumbags to lose said job. Not only do the Los Angeles scumbags disregard federal law, they make such disregard an official scumbag policy [conspiracy on the face of it.]

 

[Weird Harold]

Why not just license guns that can do just those things?

Guns are essentially designed to kill or destroy -- the dreaded Barret .50 Cal sniper rifle is primarily an anti-material weapon, used for stopping trucks and penetrating "cover" and light armor. The .50 BMG round the Barret fires was used primarily against Planes, Trains and automobiles during WWII and Korea. That doesn't mean that the Barret isn't also an ideal weapon for very big game like Kodiak or Grizzly Bears, Elephant, or Cape Buffalo.

Cloudy's snake-killing .410 shotgun can be loaded with a solid bullet that is functionally equivalent to Dirty Harry's infamous .44 Magnum in stopping power.

In other words, there isn't really any "gun that can do just certain things." Some guns are better than others for some tasks -- my hunting rifles can kill snakes, but they're hardly the ideal gun for the job.

A Fumigator fumigates. Presumably pseudophedrine HCL is good at clearing allergies. What is the purpose of a non-Olympic pistol other than to kill?

The point of those examples is that they are banned because they are being or could be used for purposes other than which they are sold.

Pseudophedrine HCL is the active ingredient in the original Sudafed which can be used to make Crystal Meth. Apparently inconveniencing allergy sufferers is easier than finding and shutting down illegal Meth labs.

The original Raid Fumigator was pulled from the market after 9/11 because it generated a very effective neurotoxin that would work as well as a terrorist weapon as it did as an insecticide. It was eventually replaced with a different formulation that would still make a fairly effective terrorist weapon, but does fuck-all about killing roaches.

What is the purpose of a non-Olympic pistol other than to kill? Why does an ordinary, law-abiding citizen need a gun if they're not killing snakes or Olympic shooting?

The purpose of the Remington .22 semi-auto rifle I own is primarily target practice at low cost. It's not very effective at killing anything larger than a squirrel unless the user is extremely accurate -- it's very similar to the rifles used in carnival shooting galleries and not much more powerful than an air-rifle (and not as powerful as some air rifles.)

Why does a responsible, law-abiding citizen need to give anyone a reason for owning something that does NOT present an inherent danger to public health and safety?

Is Cloudy's desire to display her grandfather's shotgun because of it's sentimental value and artistic decorations any less valid a reason to own a gun than her need for a weapon to kill snakes?

There are as many reasons for someone to own a gun as there are gun owners. Only a very small fraction of those reasons present even the slightest threat to public health and safety.

 

[Pure]

rr //Never mind federal law. Here is 'The Law' as determined solely by the LAPD.

LAPD Manual:
As set forth in the Manual, Special Order 40 provides that “undocumented alien status in itself is not a matter for police action. It is, therefore, incumbent upon all employees of this Department to make a personal commitment to equal enforcement of the law and service to the public, regardless of alien status.” Special Order 40 precludes LAPD officers from initiating “police action with the objective of discovering the alien status of a person,” and from arresting or booking a person for “illegal entry” into the United States. //

The order is consistent with Federal law, and found in many city jurisdictions. Police go after criminals; a basic concept. Being in LA (or Houston or New York City) without papers is a breach of federal Immigration law, not criminal law (federal,state, or local). The former can get you deported, but not jailed as punishment for being here in breach of immigration law.

Given the millions of illegals around LA, rousting a person because a cop thinks he might be undocumented, is bad policy. Ineffective too, since even if the cop were correct and the person were illegal, their chances of having broken a criminal law--i.e. being a criminal-- are no greater than anyone else's. It makes as much sense as rousting Polish Americans, or Pakistanis.

 

[Liar]

Well, I suppose you could use a frying pan that way, but not with a pencil grip.

Dude, you haven't seen my hands.

If you go into your local gun shop and buy a gun, you're buying a weapon. No matter how you try to horse that around. And no matter how you then choose to use it.

Oh really? You might try to Google up Morini Free Pistol or Hammerli Free Pistol. The Free Pistol is an Olympic shooting event. The basic Morini Free Pistol costs around $2,000. In order to have a usable Free Pistol, a shooter would have to have at least another $1,000 [and up] in accessories. There is only one real use for a Free Pistol and it is Olympic style shooting. No one sane willingly carries a Free Pistol into a gun fight.

Do you buy those in your local gun shop? And even if they are for sale there, do you buy them? No, you buy a weapon. Stop horsing around.

 

[R. Richard]

rr //Never mind federal law. Here is 'The Law' as determined solely by the LAPD.

LAPD Manual:
As set forth in the Manual, Special Order 40 provides that “undocumented alien status in itself is not a matter for police action. It is, therefore, incumbent upon all employees of this Department to make a personal commitment to equal enforcement of the law and service to the public, regardless of alien status.” Special Order 40 precludes LAPD officers from initiating “police action with the objective of discovering the alien status of a person,” and from arresting or booking a person for “illegal entry” into the United States. //

The order is consistent with Federal law, and found in many city jurisdictions. Police go after criminals; a basic concept. Being in LA (or Houston or New York City) without papers is a breach of federal Immigration law, not criminal law (federal,state, or local). The former can get you deported, but not jailed as punishment for being here in breach of immigration law.

Given the millions of illegals around LA, rousting a person because a cop thinks he might be undocumented, is bad policy. Ineffective too, since even if the cop were correct and the person were illegal, their chances of having broken a criminal law--i.e. being a criminal-- are no greater than anyone else's. It makes as much sense as rousting Polish Americans, or Pakistanis.

We are getting way off topic but let me explain what the problem is. First, immigration law is criminal law. The scumbags catch an illegal immigrant drug dealer, say a Mexican drug dealer. Said drug dealer has money and gets a big time attorney. He manages to get off with one to five years because it is the first time he got caught. As part of a plea bargain, he gets to serve his time in a Mexican jail. He can fix himself up a luxury suite in a Mexican jail [legal] and then pay enough mordita to get out in a month or two [not legal but common.] Our drug dealer now comes back to the US and sets up his operation. The scumbags know he is illegal. However they are not allowed to arrest him for violation of immigration law. Thus, drug dealer continues to operate in the US and continues to pump junk into the bodies of US citizens because the scumbags let him.

 

[R. Richard]

Dude, you haven't seen my hands.
Do you buy those in your local gun shop? And even if they are for sale there, do you buy them? No, you buy a weapon. Stop horsing around.

Yes, gun shops in my area do carry Free Pistols. No, I don't buy them, but if you want to win shooting ribbons at the County Fair around here, you do buy them. The Free Pistol is not a weapon, is is sprting equipment intended only for target shooting. [I now only compete in the rapid fire pistol category because I don't need to spend $3,000 for a gun I have no use for other than to compete at the County Fair. I also use my .475 Wildey with the same super-mangum loads I use in my business, because I don't like to train with other than what I use.]

 

[Pure]

wow!

i pointed out that undocumented persons are rightfully NOT of interest, AS SUCH, to city police.


RR is response.
We are getting way off topic but let me explain what the problem is. First, immigration law is criminal law. The scumbags catch an illegal immigrant drug dealer, say a Mexican drug dealer. Said drug dealer has money and gets a big time attorney. He manages to get off with one to five years because it is the first time he got caught. As part of a plea bargain, he gets to serve his time in a Mexican jail. He can fix himself up a luxury suite in a Mexican jail [legal] and then pay enough mordita to get out in a month or two [not legal but common.] Our drug dealer now comes back to the US and sets up his operation. The scumbags know he is illegal. However they are not allowed to arrest him for violation of immigration law. Thus, drug dealer continues to operate in the US and continues to pump junk into the bodies of US citizens because the scumbags let him.

pretty incoherent rr. kick back and have a beer; on the house.

the evidence the immigration law is NOT criminal law is that you get deported, not jailed; you, as undocumented, do not, FOR THAT REASON, deal with the 'criminal justice system", but with Immigration tribunals and other bodies. seems simple enough, unless you're in the mood for a rant against cops.

 

[R. Richard]

i pointed out that undocumented persons are rightfully NOT of interest, AS SUCH, to city police.


RR is response.
We are getting way off topic but let me explain what the problem is. First, immigration law is criminal law. The scumbags catch an illegal immigrant drug dealer, say a Mexican drug dealer. Said drug dealer has money and gets a big time attorney. He manages to get off with one to five years because it is the first time he got caught. As part of a plea bargain, he gets to serve his time in a Mexican jail. He can fix himself up a luxury suite in a Mexican jail [legal] and then pay enough mordita to get out in a month or two [not legal but common.] Our drug dealer now comes back to the US and sets up his operation. The scumbags know he is illegal. However they are not allowed to arrest him for violation of immigration law. Thus, drug dealer continues to operate in the US and continues to pump junk into the bodies of US citizens because the scumbags let him.

pretty incoherent rr. kick back and have a beer; on the house.

the evidence the immigration law is NOT criminal law is that you get deported, not jailed; you, as undocumented, do not, FOR THAT REASON, deal with the 'criminal justice system", but with Immigration tribunals and other bodies. seems simple enough, unless you're in the mood for a rant against cops.

The normal process is to throw 'undocumented aliens' into jail. They are then given a hearing and most likely deported. They used to release said 'undocumented aliens' on their own recognizance prior to a formal hearing. For some reason, said undocumented aliens rarely appeared for their hearings.

Normally, an illegal alien must produce at least a Social Security Number in order to get work [work being the reason why most illegal aliens are in the US.] Anyone who knowingly or negligently hires an illegal alien may be fined or imprisoned for up to five years. Thus, almost all illegal aliens are guilty of fraud at the outset. An employer who aids or abets the preparation of false tax returns by failing to pay income or Social Security taxes for illegal alien employees, or who knowingly makes payments using false names or Social Security numbers, is subject to IRS criminal and civil sanctions. Thus, almost all illegal aliens are in violation of criminal and civil laws other than just being an illegal alien. Thus, the scumbags who fail to apprehend known illegal aliens are guilty of criminal conspiracy.

 

[SeaCat]

Well now. Shall we get away from the problem of Illegal Immigration? That wasn't the question although I do understand how this thread has moved to it. (The idea of laws not being enforced, which is a part of the problem of gun control.)

We have established that part of the problem is the soiety we live in. One in whch violence is glamourised while it's results are glossed over.

I have also been informed by PM that the Cat is an Asshole for my views on Gun Controll. (Mandatory training indeed. Not to mention the idea of stopping some people, ie. felons, from owning a firearm.) So I'm an Asshole. I've been called worse.

So lets get back to the original subject.

Cat

 

[rgraham666]

Well now. Shall we get away from the problem of Illegal Immigration? That wasn't the question although I do understand how this thread has moved to it. (The idea of laws not being enforced, which is a part of the problem of gun control.)

We have established that part of the problem is the soiety we live in. One in whch violence is glamourised while it's results are glossed over.

I have also been informed by PM that the Cat is an Asshole for my views on Gun Controll. (Mandatory training indeed. Not to mention the idea of stopping some people, ie. felons, from owning a firearm.) So I'm an Asshole. I've been called worse.

So lets get back to the original subject.

Cat

You got called an asshole? How do you rate?

I said much the same thing ages ago and nobody verbally abused me!

I feel neglected. Somebody's going to be sued!

 

[SeaCat]

You got called an asshole? How do you rate?

I said much the same thing ages ago and nobody verbally abused me!

I feel neglected. Somebody's going to be sued!

Yep, I was called an Asshole because I want mandatory training as well as a true background check. (No not by the person you would expect it from either. I was somewhat surprised.)

Okay so tell me why is mandating standardised training for everyone who wishes to own or carry such a bad thing?

Cat

 

[rgraham666]

Yep, I was called an Asshole because I want mandatory training as well as a true background check. (No not by the person you would expect it from either. I was somewhat surprised.)

Okay so tell me why is mandating standardised training for everyone who wishes to own or carry such a bad thing?

Cat

Probably because the person is rightly distrustful of their ability to pass such tests. I'll bet the background check would be less than stellar as well.

 

[cloudy]

Cat, I can't pass a background check.

Just sayin'.

 

[rgraham666]

Cat, I can't pass a background check.

Just sayin'.

Neither could I for that matter. There's that decade of mental illness sitting on it.

 

[Liar]

Cat, I can't pass a background check.

Just sayin'.

Neither could I for that matter. There's that decade of mental illness sitting on it.

Then mebbe the criteria for said background check is wrong, and not the general idea of having one. Just a thought.

(In the best of worlds, of course. I don't assume an authority ever getting something like that right.)

 

[cloudy]

Then mebbe the criteria for said background check is wrong, and not the general idea of having one. Just a thought.

(In the best of worlds, of course. I don't assume an authority ever getting something like that right.)

Probably so. I had to petition to get my voting and gun rights back, and got 'em restored, no problem. However, most background checks just check for a felony on your record, and have no concern for what the actual conviction was for.

Unlike Canada, there's no way here to get a pardon clearing your record after so many years. That felony will always, always be there.

 

[FatDino]

Probably so. I had to petition to get my voting and gun rights back, and got 'em restored, no problem. However, most background checks just check for a felony on your record, and have no concern for what the actual conviction was for.

Unlike Canada, there's no way here to get a pardon clearing your record after so many years. That felony will always, always be there.

Yay, go Canada!

 

[SeaCat]

Cloudy I agree with you and Liar. The background checks we have are cursory checks. They don't look into what the conviction was for or the reasons behind it.

My best friend outside of my wife is a convicted Felon. Why? Because she stuck a steak knife in her husbands belly. It didn't matter to the courts that her husband was a convicted Abuser, she stuck the knife in and admitted to it. (We won't get into the training and practice she got from me.)

Some of the laws and regulations do need to be changed. Hell we all admit to that. (Don't get me started n the laws dealing with Liability.)

Cat

 

[Weird Harold]

Okay so tell me why is mandating standardised training for everyone who wishes to own or carry such a bad thing?

One big problem with standardized training/qualification is that it is a one-size-fits-all solution.

The training that a gun collector needs is diffeerent from the training a target shooter needs is different from the raining a big game hunter needs is different from the training a bird hunter needs, is different from the training a self-defense concealed carrier needs.

Even if you set-up multiple classes of qualification you only create a bureaucratic nightmare instead of a one-size-fits-nobody situation.

All of that of course ignores the "who decides" argument.

Existing laws against negligence and/or public endangerment are IMHO sufficient to deter, or at least deal with, irresponsible and/or incompetent gun owners.

 

[R. Richard]

Probably so. I had to petition to get my voting and gun rights back, and got 'em restored, no problem. However, most background checks just check for a felony on your record, and have no concern for what the actual conviction was for.

Unlike Canada, there's no way here to get a pardon clearing your record after so many years. That felony will always, always be there.

There is a way. You need to write a letter to your Congressperson to get a pardon for whatever you did. You Congressperson can introduce what is called a private bill that handles that sort of thing. Once you have a pardon, you cna have the felony removed from your record. [Your Confress persons staff can fill in the details.]

 

[sister76]

I don't like gun control. 'Nuff said.