Here are some gun control fallacies...

[richard_daily]

"Guns cause suicides"

Nope.

The US doesn't break top the top 25. So guns do NOT cause more suicides than other countries.


"Guns cause gang violence"

The United States ranks 92nd for murder rates. I guess all of those "gun free countries" still have greater problem with murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


"Guns cause mass murders"

Again, nope.

Australians have had a half dozen mass murders via arson in the last 10 years. This is the shining example that anti-gun folks hold up to the world as a symbol of "what works".

Bai Ningyang stabbed and burned 17 people.

Asnain Anwar Warekar stabbed 14 people.

Sayfullo Habibullaevic Saipov killed 8 with a vehicle and injured 11 more.

Santosh Maruti Mane killed 9 and injured 37

But the worst, Andreas Günter Lubitz, used his own plane to kill 149 people. There were no survivors. Post-industrial times, there has never been a mass shooting in history that had more fatalities.




There are no situations where a gun caused or causes any of these incidents.

Take guns completely out of the equation, and mass murders still happen, suicides still happen, and gang violence still happens.

Trying to lump these three separate issues together, and claiming that guns are the problem, and calling it "gun violence" is dishonest, and a false narrative.

 

[KimGordon67]

"Guns cause suicides"

Nope.

The US doesn't break top the top 25. So guns do NOT cause more suicides than other countries.


"Guns cause gang violence"

The United States ranks 92nd for murder rates. I guess all of those "gun free countries" still have greater problem with murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


"Guns cause mass murders"

Again, nope.

Australians have had a half dozen mass murders via arson in the last 10 years. This is the shining example that anti-gun folks hold up to the world as a symbol of "what works".

Bai Ningyang stabbed and burned 17 people.

Asnain Anwar Warekar stabbed 14 people.

Sayfullo Habibullaevic Saipov killed 8 with a vehicle and injured 11 more.

Santosh Maruti Mane killed 9 and injured 37

But the worst, Andreas Günter Lubitz, used his own plane to kill 149 people. There were no survivors. Post-industrial times, there has never been a mass shooting in history that had more fatalities.




There are no situations where a gun caused or causes any of these incidents.

Take guns completely out of the equation, and mass murders still happen, suicides still happen, and gang violence still happens.

Trying to lump these three separate issues together, and claiming that guns are the problem, and calling it "gun violence" is dishonest, and a false narrative.

Ha - the vast majority of countries 1-91 on that chart could hardly be described as 'gun-free'. If you really wanted to make that point, you'd need to cross-tab 'intentional homicide rates' with 'rates of gun ownership' somehow. You also need to cull out the very low population countries which clearly had a blip whichever year the data were collected - e.g. Tuvalu. That could have been someone who shot his wife and her lover that year in a freak occurrence that's never happened before or since.

And re: the mass murder one - I think it would be pretty easy to argue that guns result in more mass murders. No single implement 'causes' mass murders. Mass murderers do. But some things make it easier for them.

 

[phrodeau]

How many bad guys with guns have been stopped by a good guy with an AR-15?

 

[OldJourno]

How many bad guys with guns have been stopped by a good guy with an AR-15?

1.4 million results on Google

 

[richard_daily]

Ha - the vast majority of countries 1-91 on that chart could hardly be described as 'gun-free'. If you really wanted to make that point, you'd need to cross-tab 'intentional homicide rates' with 'rates of gun ownership' somehow. You also need to cull out the very low population countries which clearly had a blip whichever year the data were collected - e.g. Tuvalu. That could have been someone who shot his wife and her lover that year in a freak occurrence that's never happened before or since.

And re: the mass murder one - I think it would be pretty easy to argue that guns result in more mass murders. No single implement 'causes' mass murders. Mass murderers do. But some things make it easier for them.

I keep getting told that the US is the ONLY country with this problem, because we're the only country with gun rights written into our constitution. If that's the case, how come we aren't #1 in regards to these three separate problems?

That's clearly not the case.

 

[richard_daily]

How many bad guys with guns have been stopped by a good guy with an AR-15?

How many good guys have been saved by unconstitutional "assault weapon" bans?

You know, the ban that we already tired, and that had no effect on crime.

But it makes you feel good, right?

 

[Hypoxia]

I keep getting told that the US is the ONLY country with this problem, because we're the only country with gun rights written into our constitution.

You can google for that. The answer is, only USA and Guatemala have open constitutional declarations, and Guatemala specifies "personal use", which likely excludes robbery and murder. We saw armed guards everywhere there. Locals are uncomfortable visiting stateside because USA hasn't enough guys with shotguns standing around. Is that what we want here?

IIRC Mexico and Jamaica also have constitutional provisions but requiring annual licenses. As with most non-first-world countries, all firearms laws are widely ignored. To enter a shopping mall in Honduras, we passed the rent-a-cop 'checking' (confiscating) handguns of shoppers. Cheaters could justifiably be shot. Do we want private handgun 'control' here?

 

[warrior queen]

I'm going to say it again - keep your guns.

But for goodness sake, put something in place to a) stop nutjobs from such easy access, and b) to protect those who are most vulnerable from becoming mass casualties.

Fuck - I own a couple of rifles myself. But I had to jump through a gazillion hoops to prove that I wasn't trying to get them to go and shoot 17 schoolkids and teachers!

 

[Captainnumnuts]

Here's what I take away from this: The 1 singular common denominator we all posses is self-preservation. All things living want to preserve themselves.

The only problem with self-preservation in it's human form is each person preserves themselves from harm in different ways based upon what they know. In a civilized society, we tend to go with what we know based upon the immediate environment we interact with as we nurture it. Thus, we act upon it in ways confusing to others that don't share that same immediate environment. Some see guns as a threat simply because guns are deadly by virtue of their existence. True. But also true is those of us see guns as a tool to defend ourselves against forces that threaten our existence. All of it is a combination of primitive instincts and what we know.

If some humans are completely primitive in an environment where only the strong and most brutal survive, then they attack the weaker ones w/out remorse to gain control. Those type humans don't care about rules and don't care about statistics or anything remotely civilized with any type of governing body. Rules, regulations, gun control, legal possession, etc... Do not apply to them. To deal with those type, you have to strip yourself of anything logical or reasoning. You must meet them w/brute force and either kill or render them defenseless in order to gain their respect before they will consider any type of reasoning as it pertains to a governed, civilized society.

 

[richard_daily]

You can google for that. The answer is, only USA and Guatemala have open constitutional declarations, and Guatemala specifies "personal use", which likely excludes robbery and murder. We saw armed guards everywhere there. Locals are uncomfortable visiting stateside because USA hasn't enough guys with shotguns standing around. Is that what we want here?

IIRC Mexico and Jamaica also have constitutional provisions but requiring annual licenses. As with most non-first-world countries, all firearms laws are widely ignored. To enter a shopping mall in Honduras, we passed the rent-a-cop 'checking' (confiscating) handguns of shoppers. Cheaters could justifiably be shot. Do we want private handgun 'control' here?

And yet, all of these issues happen around the world, and happen in greater numbers in many other places.

So the logical conclusion, is that guns are not the problem.

 

[richard_daily]

Here's what I take away from this: The 1 singular common denominator we all posses is self-preservation. All things living want to preserve themselves.

The only problem with self-preservation in it's human form is each person preserves themselves from harm in different ways based upon what they know. In a civilized society, we tend to go with what we know based upon the immediate environment we interact with as we nurture it. Thus, we act upon it in ways confusing to others that don't share that same immediate environment. Some see guns as a threat simply because guns are deadly by virtue of their existence. True. But also true is those of us see guns as a tool to defend ourselves against forces that threaten our existence. All of it is a combination of primitive instincts and what we know.

If some humans are completely primitive in an environment where only the strong and most brutal survive, then they attack the weaker ones w/out remorse to gain control. Those type humans don't care about rules and don't care about statistics or anything remotely civilized with any type of governing body. Rules, regulations, gun control, legal possession, etc... Do not apply to them. To deal with those type, you have to strip yourself of anything logical or reasoning. You must meet them w/brute force and either kill or render them defenseless in order to gain their respect before they will consider any type of reasoning as it pertains to a governed, civilized society.

While I agree with some of your points, I believe it to be a gross over-simplification in many ways.

I have volunteered with hardened criminals. Not a single one of them was all that different from you or me. The common thread, is that they grew up in different circumstance, with less opportunities than you or I have been afforded.

The solution isn't to vilify people. The solution is to give people access to the tools that they need to have a better life. Namely, access to mental health care. Access to a quality fulfilling job, and the ability to make something for themselves.

If you believe that everyone in this country has equal access to those things already, you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Captainnumnuts]

While I agree with some of your points, I believe it to be a gross over-simplification in many ways.

If you believe that everyone in this country has equal access to those things already, you're sadly mistaken.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm fine w/that and accept it for what it is.

Everyone everywhere has access to those things already are living in it now - they simply don't see it because they don't want to.

Anyone can try to explain away things all day as they try to simplify it in ways they think all persons w/different POVs will see it. Fact is, if people don't want to see things for what they are, then they won't agree w/anything that doesn't fit their narrative.

 

[Ann_Tagonist]

Gun phallusies.

 

[richard_daily]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I'm fine w/that and accept it for what it is.

Everyone everywhere has access to those things already are living in it now - they simply don't see it because they don't want to.

Anyone can try to explain away things all day as they try to simplify it in ways they think all persons w/different POVs will see it. Fact is, if people don't want to see things for what they are, then they won't agree w/anything that doesn't fit their narrative.

So do you believe that you have had the exact same opportunities as donald trump got, being born into a family of billionaires? If so, why haven;t you achieved the same "success"?

 

[Captainnumnuts]

So do you believe that you have had the exact same opportunities as donald trump got, being born into a family of billionaires? If so, why haven;t you achieved the same "success"?

That's like comparing apples to oranges. Trump nor any other business person turned politician has anything to do with what I was born into. I've had some opportunities and fucked them up. Live and learn.

I've enjoyed our exchange. It's rare for me to relay such deep thoughts in a comprehensive manner. Thanks. Maybe we can do this again and have fun with it.

 

[Saint Peter]

So do you believe that you have had the exact same opportunities as donald trump got, being born into a family of billionaires? If so, why haven;t you achieved the same "success"?

I never laundered Russian money.
I never grabbed a pussy that was not interested in being grabbed.
My hair does not look like Ronald McDonald's hair.



Life sucks.

 

[richard_daily]

That's like comparing apples to oranges. Trump nor any other business person turned politician has anything to do with what I was born into. I've had some opportunities and fucked them up. Live and learn.

I've enjoyed our exchange. It's rare for me to relay such deep thoughts in a comprehensive manner. Thanks. Maybe we can do this again and have fun with it.

Uhhh... ok.

 

[richard_daily]

I never laundered Russian money.
I never grabbed a pussy that was not interested in being grabbed.
My hair does not look like Ronald McDonald's hair.



Life sucks.

St. Peter. Sad.

 

[phrodeau]

"Guns cause suicides"

Nope.

The US doesn't break top the top 25. So guns do NOT cause more suicides than other countries.


"Guns cause gang violence"

The United States ranks 92nd for murder rates. I guess all of those "gun free countries" still have greater problem with murder.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate


"Guns cause mass murders"

Again, nope.

Australians have had a half dozen mass murders via arson in the last 10 years. This is the shining example that anti-gun folks hold up to the world as a symbol of "what works".

Bai Ningyang stabbed and burned 17 people.

Asnain Anwar Warekar stabbed 14 people.

Sayfullo Habibullaevic Saipov killed 8 with a vehicle and injured 11 more.

Santosh Maruti Mane killed 9 and injured 37

But the worst, Andreas Günter Lubitz, used his own plane to kill 149 people. There were no survivors. Post-industrial times, there has never been a mass shooting in history that had more fatalities.




There are no situations where a gun caused or causes any of these incidents.

Take guns completely out of the equation, and mass murders still happen, suicides still happen, and gang violence still happens.

Trying to lump these three separate issues together, and claiming that guns are the problem, and calling it "gun violence" is dishonest, and a false narrative.

This argument is so old, it deserves to be called a straw teenager. You know, the kind that's easily mowed down by your logic bullets.

 

[richard_daily]

This argument is so old, it deserves to be called a straw teenager. You know, the kind that's easily mowed down by your logic bullets.

Oh?

Go for it then, if it's so old and easy.

 

[Saint Peter]

St. Peter. Sad.

Yeah. I do have a safe full of guns that enable me splatter your brains all over the pavement.

Life is good!

 

[richard_daily]

Yeah. I do have a safe full of guns that enable me splatter your brains all over the pavement.

Life is good!

Do the guns force you to do that? If so, I'd be scared. However, I know you to be a good, stand up guy, so your having a safe full of guns wouldn't scare me in the least.

Let's go shooting sometime?

 

[phrodeau]

Oh?

Go for it then, if it's so old and easy.

Here you go.

 

[richard_daily]

Here you go.

So, you don't actually have a rebuttal for the facts that I gave you, but instead are just going to falsely claim it's a straw man.

Your false notion of "gun violence" is nothing but an amalgamation of non-related deaths, the sum or which are not greater in the US than in other countries. As such, you're false claims that "gun violence" is a problem unique to the US is a fallacy.

 

[Saint Peter]

Do the guns force you to do that? If so, I'd be scared. However, I know you to be a good, stand up guy, so your having a safe full of guns wouldn't scare me in the least.

Let's go shooting sometime?

Guns do not force me to do evil deeds. Mostly they just pluck off a clay pigeon now and then.