How can I make this point? Need advice on the language.

[MrHereWriting]

Oh, actually, I know what he sells: traditional male-female roles. The man is the protector, the woman is the one who must be protected! "Me man, you woman, get the fuck back in the kitchen."

AI Overview of Scott Galloway, a Moderate/Centrist who supports Democrats.

Scott Galloway does not believe in traditional gender roles but does believe in certain positive "masculine" traits like being a protector and a provider, and he argues for redefining masculinity in a way that includes emotional expression and caregiving. He has written about the crisis facing young men due to the erosion of traditional roles, but advocates for men to embrace new definitions of purpose and purpose beyond gender roles, and to engage more fully as partners and fathers.

• Critique of traditional gender roles: Galloway has stated that the definition of masculinity has to evolve away from aggression and domination towards a more positive model that includes skills like self-care, advocating for others, and providing emotional support. He criticizes the idea that masculinity is solely about being a physical provider, especially in a society where it's harder for men to fulfill that role.
• Embracing redefined masculinity: He encourages men to embrace new definitions of purpose beyond traditional roles and to become better partners and fathers. This includes showing affection, being mentors, and developing deeper emotional connections.
• • Focus on men's issues: A central theme in his work is the crisis of masculinity and the challenges young men face without positive male role models. He argues that men need to become better mentors for younger men and for each other to model positive masculinity.
  • Role of "protector": He redefines "protector" to include physical protection, but also as a default response to defend those who are being criticized or demonized, and as a way to advocate for others.
  • Balancing with feminism: While he has some "unpalatable" opinions to certain feminists, he also argues that lifting up men will help women and that men and women should see each other as allies, not enemies.

He doesn't sound like the next Andrew Tate.
If someone is uplifting men (or women) who have given up on society and can't find a way out, I see no wrong with it and you'll have to use common sense and critical thinking to know I don't mean destructive practices are okay.
How do you help specific groups of people? By addressing those specific groups of people.

 

[lovecraft68]

Gallow is promoting male victimhood which is the opposite of what it would take for anyone in any situation to improve said situation

Men are not victims.

Women have been subjugated for centuries, a few years of equal rights and they're crying like the babies they are.

Actual men don't have this problem, we're fine getting through life and being able to have relationships with women.

Gallow is another incel whisperer cashing in on the pathetic Gen Z 'males" whose fathers coddle them while also blaming women for all their mistakes.

Going back to the Garden of Eden fairy tale, men have had no accountability at all. Always the fault of women.

I'll stop now so I can go get a mop for all the male tears soon to come through.

 

[MrHereWriting]

Gallow is promoting male victimhood which is the opposite of what it would take for anyone in any situation to improve said situation

Men are not victims.

Women have been subjugated for centuries, a few years of equal rights and they're crying like the babies they are.

Actual men don't have this problem, we're fine getting through life and being able to have relationships with women.

Gallow is another incel whisperer cashing in on the pathetic Gen Z 'males" whose fathers coddle them while also blaming women for all their mistakes.

Going back to the Garden of Eden fairy tale, men have had no accountability at all. Always the fault of women.

I'll stop now so I can go get a mop for all the male tears soon to come through.

He's promoting a solution to cause and effect.

From what I can see, he's not saying "You are victims, so you are owed this."

He's saying "This is what happened and now it's up to you to fix it."

He's promoting action over demand. If anyone has read his book and wants to post excerpts that he is promoting a sense of entitled victimhood, then this conversation would be over from my end.

 

[lovecraft68]

 

[MrHereWriting]

View attachment 2577841

Not everyone, but it's convenient to claim to be a victim so that you are owed and it's convenient to accuse people of wanting to be victims in order to brush off what may be legitimate concerns.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Sorry, I'm the wrong market for his bullshit. I'm not into boys at all. And the market his statements are addressing is those who can't get a date with a woman without using money.

@MrHereWriting posted part of it already, but here is the full blurb from his website.


Kitchens not mentioned so far, but who knows what the full text might hold. I'm vaguely thinking of taking one for the team and buying, reading and reporting back on the book. On the other hand, I'd hate to be sold snake oil.

 

[MrHereWriting]

At what point does our own convictions become so important that we become egregiously dismissive, to the point of rash assumptions, of other people's troubles?

I'm out.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I'm not always a nice person, I confess, you got me on that. And you should've addressed the comment to me, not generically. I admit that I have little sympathy for grown men still living in their parents' basement, well into their 20s or even 30s.

At what point does our own convictions become so important that we become egregiously dismissive, to the point of rash assumptions, of other people's troubles?

I'm out.

 

[TheRedChamber]

And the market his statements are addressing is those who can't get a date with a woman without using money.

Bang head against wall...

Yes, thats exactly who his statements are addressing! Thats the whole point!

 

[MillieDynamite]

And they aren't going to change.

Bang head against wall...

Yes, thats exactly who his statements are addressing! Thats the whole point!

 

[TheRedChamber]

And they aren't going to change.

You certainly seem invested in making sure they dont.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I've known too many of them in real life to see any hope that they have the capacity for change.

You certainly seem invested in making sure they dont.

 

[TheRedChamber]

I've known too many of them in real life to see any hope that they have the capacity for change.

You've never known any one who has struggled with dating who has subsequently gone onto find a long term partner?

 

[iwatchus]

I have known several young males who I would put in the incel category (I teach in a male dominated field, so I have seen a few). They have no concept pf women being humans. They are just fancy sex dolls. If I were female, I would have no interest in dealing with them until that attitude changes. From what I have seen here, Galoway is just feeding their delusion that women exist purely to satisfy their needs.

 

[MillieDynamite]

A few, sure, but that's different than those with a total lack of social skills. That's different from 35-year-olds who've never dated and live with their parents. The ones like that are also different than A-sexual's who have no drive for sex but still seek contact with other humans.

You've never known any one who has struggled with dating who has subsequently gone onto find a long term partner?

 

[iwatchus]

You've never known any one who has struggled with dating who has subsequently gone onto find a long term partner?

There is a difference between men who struggle to find a date and the true incels.

You and I have gone toe to toe on this issue before and I have no interest in rehashing that ground. I will say that I have also known many young men who struggled with women. My wife (who teaches with me) and I have both been asked dating advice by some of them (we are considered the cool teachers they can talk to). Every one of them has had some issues they could work on. Not a single one would I chalk up to "all women hate me because I am too (ugly, poor, nerdy, nice, etc, take your pick)" although many of them assume that.

I will let you respond so you have last word, but I will not be dragged back into this argument.

 

[TheRedChamber]

There is a difference between men who struggle to find a date and the true incels.

You and I have gone toe to toe on this issue before and I have no interest in rehashing that ground. I will say that I have also known many young men who struggled with women. My wife (who teaches with me) and I have both been asked dating advice by some of them (we are considered the cool teachers they can talk to). Every one of them has had some issues they could work on. Not a single one would I chalk up to "all women hate me because I am too (ugly, poor, nerdy, nice, etc, take your pick)" although many of them assume that.

I will let you respond so you have last word, but I will not be dragged back into this argument.

That last word will simply be that I'm baffled that you seem to think that young men who come to you with dating advice couldn't benefit from a dating advice book. (Again, making no claims for Galloway's being a good book)

Actual men don't have this problem, we're fine getting through life and being able to have relationships with women.

Since it is basically the topic at hand, perhaps you'd like to expand on what you think an 'actual man' is.

A few, sure, but that's different than those with a total lack of social skills. That's different from 35-year-olds who've never dated and live with their parents.

'Total' is a little strong but I think the claim is that a lot of guys are starting with 'weak' social skills and these are atrophying further because they are not going out and getting better - the funny thing is that socializing often isn't much fun when you have 'weak' social skills especially with strangers. Yes, they should 'man up' and get out there, which is what Galloway seems to be telling them to do.

For what it's worth, there was a moment in my mid-twenties, I looked across the cube farm to the undateable guy in his mid-forties, saw a lot of the worst aspects of myself there and decided that my job looking at a screen for eight (or sometimes twelve) hours a day had to go in favour of one which actually needed social skills and interactions. I'm still recovering for the financial hit of that decision twenty years later, but I did meet my wife within twelve months.

 

[AG31]

From what I have seen here, Galoway is just feeding their delusion that women exist purely to satisfy their needs.

Could you cite a couple of quotes from this thread that illustrate that?

 

[iwatchus]

It's mostly reading between the lines, but the dog whistles are absolutely present. If I get a chance I will go back to see if I can find what triggered that thought in me.

 

[AG31]

It's mostly reading between the lines, but the dog whistles are absolutely present. If I get a chance I will go back to see if I can find what triggered that thought in me.

Yes, please do. I typically resonate with your comments in AH, but the ease with which people label things "dog whistles," instead of taking them at face value until proven otherwise, is a problem for me.

 

[iwatchus]

It's why the dog whistles happen. Most readers say, oh that doesn't seem so unreasonable, but their target audience understands what is being sold.. I will try. No promises. I 'm already spending too much time here instead of editing and writing (and doing all the damned grading for my students).

 

[alohadave]

No response will be necessary as I will not return to this thread, but.
I have not read this person but everything quoted here sounds very much like coded incel speech to me. It's dangerous, and to dismiss her thoughts and feelings on it is not justified. Coded or not, incel speak should be, and needs to be dismissed out of hand, period. They blame women, they blame women's rights. They think all women should just submit, not just to a man, but all men. It's dangerous. In the US we are not treating or respecting women as people, let alone equals or partners. Anyone can claim that the statements made here are rational, the argument is rational, but incel speak is not rational, it is dangerous and it is taking away the rights of half the population, and would reduce women to mere chattel, as it used to be. It must be spoken against, dismissed, rejected.

A handbook for 'nice guys'.