JenAltArmy
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playing the game isn't black and white. you play in the gray
How Socialists Built America
- Thread starter KingOrfeo
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playing the game isn't black and white. you play in the gray
badbabysitter
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you seem to think it is though...
Sean Renaud
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But you talk in black and white. I talk in grey. I believe in grey and that is what reality is. You're the one who believe and only speaks in terms of black and white.
Socialism is like a zombie, must be shot in head! Is not grey speak. It's black and white. Stop being an idiot.
JenAltArmy
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please! I AM the voice of reason here. So many of you left wing nuts have given up on life and want the government to take control of your lives.
the collective dream is dead as obama has become an epic failure.
yes we do need social type programs (military, police, schools k-12, roads..this and that), but we do not need programs like welfare as a career, free healthcare insurance... this and that given away for free)
if GM was to give away 10 new cards, I bet you in 1 year 9 our of those 10 cars will be in the junk yard or close to it. my point, give stuff away for free and it becomes garbage
I also belive 100% that welfare is slavery, as it enslaves people to government
badbabysitter
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this is classic you
"socialism is bad... but we really need it... just dont call it socialism!!!"
JenAltArmy
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no, the capitalist in me wants to pay the least amount for school (for kids), to drive on the road, this and that. just that so many of you left wing nuts jump head deep into how glamorous socialism is
classic yes & most awesome
badbabysitter
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you pay the least for the schools, you get shitty schools.. you shouldnt then have the right to bitch about schools if you didnt want to invest in them
we "praise" socialism because people like you have no fucking idea what the word means... hell the military is the epitome of socialism in action, yet I see no one on the right attacking it............. its completely taxpayer funded; the tax payer pays for training, salary, benefits, equipment, housing, pensions, medical...the whole kit and kaboodle
where's the outrage?
Sean Renaud
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Nobody here has given up on life or wants the government to take control.
You're next two points contradict each other. Nobody thinks or wants welfare as a career and other than just cus you said so there is nothing that separates free health care from police or schools. Hell a strong argument could be made that if you had to pick between them that health care is a better choice than the other two.
You're last point is garbage as well. Again you're black and white, no grey at all.
LOL. I can't believe you can type such tripe with a straight face.
JenAltArmy
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who ever said that I type with a straight face? I'm always having fun here in GBland
IrezumiKiss
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It's more about the intention and drooling expectation that it would be a game-changer in an updated, revised movie version primarily dedicated to draw in the newbie Rand-cuntsucking hipster masses. It ain't do that.
I can find better and more entertaining Randian philosophy in Tron Legacy.
Actually we bash China for using slave labor, not for being Communists or so calling themselves. It's very simple and there's no contradiction.
In my case, "progressive," by which I mean something far to the right of "socialist" and far to the left of "liberal." I can't speak for anyone else on that point, but there is a Vermont Progressive Party which has roughly the same social-democratic policies as the Working Families Party, or Canada's self-described "social democratic" New Democratic Party. You will never confuse any of those with a socialist party, unless you are an idiot.
Hey, this is where we type with a straight face. (One the other Lit forums, they type with a . . . contorted face, and with one hand.
)
Sean Renaud
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I think you could get a damn fine film out of Fountain Head.
Ermm, no, Jen, you are the voice of reflexive RW buzzwords and inarticulate screams here. You have demonstrated a marked incapacity for reason.Maybe. But the last attempt wasn't.
One problem is, not the best writer and director in Hollywood could turn Howard Roarke into a character you would want to know, as distinct from admiring. Even Toohey, Rand's Strawman Socialist and Enemy of All Excellence, is both more likeable and more interesting. (Wynand, now -- there's a dude you'd wanna know!)
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Sean Renaud
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C'mon. Adequate writers in Hollywood made Hannibal Lector into someone you wanted to know. They made dick in Jurrassic Park into John Hammond lovable old kook who never grew out of dinosaurs, granted that took the Man himself decending from upon high but I can easily buy that you could get a film together about a kid fresh out of high school/college making it in the big world and contrast him to a kid with similar goals who keeps getting shit handed to him.
Oh wait I saw that movie. Only one kid got bit by a radioactive spider and the other gradually went insane. (granted we try not to talk about the third installment)
Oh wait I saw that movie. Only one kid got bit by a radioactive spider and the other gradually went insane. (granted we try not to talk about the third installment)
The difference between Howard Roarke and Peter Keating is not that Keating gets things handed to him (he doesn't, he gets things by manipulating people, which is a form of work), but that they do not have similar goals. Keating wants to be famous -- architecture is simply a path to it at which he showed some early promise. Roarke wants to design buildings and nothing else. (In Rand's value-system, Keating is a deficient, "selfless" personality because he cares so much about how he is admired in the eyes of others, or of society at large; Roarke cares about what's real and what matters, i.e., his own creative vision.) It's much deeper -- and harder to convey to the screen entertainingly -- than the difference between Peter Parker (everyman with a gift) and Harry Osborne (likeable poor little rich kid).
There is a scene in the book where Keating, despairing of communicating with Roarke on any level Keating can comprehend, asks him, "Why can't you ever relax?!" Roarke -- who, at the moment, is slouching back in his chair with his feet on the desk -- laughs. But Keating has a point. Because Roarke is so tightly focused, because he cares only about architecture, he might be an admirable character, but not an interesting one, nor one you would want to know. There is nothing else about him but his architecture and his value-system. Keating at least you could enjoy a beer with.
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Sean Renaud
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. . .I'm not going to debate details with you, not because I think you're right. I don't. But I read the book in late early 2003 on my way to Iraq and while I enjoyed it it didn't exactly sear every detail of itself in mah brain.
I remember basically this. You had Kid A who kicked ass and eventually made friends with a guy who owned a Newspaper and named his boat "I am" and then Kid B who didn't seem as talented. Somewhere Dagny Taggart did the same think that Tifa Lockhart did in Final Fantasy 8 and 9. She changed her clothes and her name and wondered why we didn't recognize that the goal of a strong woman is to find a sufficently strong man to put her in proper place. At some point the less talented people tried to bully kid A for reasons that don't quite hold up. Sure it doesn't have Francisco's awesome speech but really Shrugged (to me) is the inferior of the two books.
But clearly you're better prepared for this conversation.
I remember basically this. You had Kid A who kicked ass and eventually made friends with a guy who owned a Newspaper and named his boat "I am" and then Kid B who didn't seem as talented. Somewhere Dagny Taggart did the same think that Tifa Lockhart did in Final Fantasy 8 and 9. She changed her clothes and her name and wondered why we didn't recognize that the goal of a strong woman is to find a sufficently strong man to put her in proper place. At some point the less talented people tried to bully kid A for reasons that don't quite hold up. Sure it doesn't have Francisco's awesome speech but really Shrugged (to me) is the inferior of the two books.
But clearly you're better prepared for this conversation.
"At some point the less talented people tried to bully kid A for reasons that don't quite hold up" is the whole point of the story, which is a political . . . well, not even a political allegory, really a political story though it involves no elections or revolutions or anything. Rand's message in The Fountainhead, true or false, is clear: Leftists or collectivists, represented by the columnist Toohey, purport to be the enemies of injustice and exploitation, but what they are really the enemies of is excellence; they are mediocre characters, without gifts like Roarke's, who want to drag all down to their level of mediocrity. Thus, Roarke, a man who represents no personal threat to Toohey but who stands for individual artistic achievement without regard to what society thinks, is Toohey's natural enemy. (Toohey has some common ground here with Wynand -- save that Wynand is a man who has real creative gifts, and maliciously abuses them to stifle gifts in others, and his reasons for doing so are more psychologically complex and more . . . noble, in an archaic sense of the word, than Toohey's.)
Toohey also patronizes a group of really eccentric artists. At one point someone mentions to Toohey that he is known for his anti-individualism, his it's-all-about-the-masses message, and yet these artists are such individualists. Toohey chuckles and says, "You really think so?" The point, which the interlocutor misses and Toohey is too intellectually dishonest to mention, is that while these artists are "individualists" in the sense of being eccentric and doing their own thing without regard to mode or fashion, their whole artistic output is crap. They're like Roarke without the talent.
It's interesting that Rand wrote an Author Tract in which the alienated genius is not an inventor or a businessman or a politician or a revolutionary, but an artist -- and, specifically, an architect. An architect practices a more public art than any other artist -- once his work is done, everyone in sight of it has to live with it. And a building necessarily encodes certain social assumptions of the society in which it is built (e.g., it's socially significant whether a big house does or does not have servants' quarters). Rand made use of that -- e.g., Roarke is hired to design a vacation resort, and does it in the form of a large number of isolated cottages where every family can enjoy nature and privacy at once; but the backers were expecting something more like a big hotel with planned group activities and stuff. (Rand's point here, which is debatable, is that the cottage is what working-class families on vacation would actually enjoy more. Or, if they don't, they should. Despite emphatically contrary rhetoric on the point, Objectivists are not much different from Communists in thinking they know what everybody really wants.)
Toohey also patronizes a group of really eccentric artists. At one point someone mentions to Toohey that he is known for his anti-individualism, his it's-all-about-the-masses message, and yet these artists are such individualists. Toohey chuckles and says, "You really think so?" The point, which the interlocutor misses and Toohey is too intellectually dishonest to mention, is that while these artists are "individualists" in the sense of being eccentric and doing their own thing without regard to mode or fashion, their whole artistic output is crap. They're like Roarke without the talent.
It's interesting that Rand wrote an Author Tract in which the alienated genius is not an inventor or a businessman or a politician or a revolutionary, but an artist -- and, specifically, an architect. An architect practices a more public art than any other artist -- once his work is done, everyone in sight of it has to live with it. And a building necessarily encodes certain social assumptions of the society in which it is built (e.g., it's socially significant whether a big house does or does not have servants' quarters). Rand made use of that -- e.g., Roarke is hired to design a vacation resort, and does it in the form of a large number of isolated cottages where every family can enjoy nature and privacy at once; but the backers were expecting something more like a big hotel with planned group activities and stuff. (Rand's point here, which is debatable, is that the cottage is what working-class families on vacation would actually enjoy more. Or, if they don't, they should.
Despite emphatically contrary rhetoric on the point, Objectivists are not much different from Communists in thinking they know what everybody really wants.)COMPARATIVE POLITICAL IDEOLOGIES 101
An Objectivist Atlas will shrug
When his girlfriend won't go past a hug
Self-reliant as Rand
Is his own nimble hand
On his Fountainhead ready to tug!
Socialists like to share their virility
But it brings social costs in fertility
For, "To each by her need!"
Is their true, solemn creed
But the sharing wears out the ability!
Libertarians swing and they play
You can use them most any which way
Straight, gay, trans, or bi
Or whatever you'll try
All while shouting, "For freedom! Hooray!"
A Republican man-about-town
Could make a smile vertical frown
For, at finish, the heel
Always made the girl kneel
And let all the wealth trickle down!
A Democrat is well-suited to diddle
In the sense that he's straight-up-the-middle
But, 'tween left and right hand
He can ne'er . . . make a stand
At the end, can just sit there and twiddle!
The proud stalwarts of the Tea Party
Have lusts that are hearty but naughty
Such as offering their sacks
As mid-morning snacks
To all and to sundry! How haughty!
A Theocon's holy and pious
But it seems that his judgment is biased
By his mind filled with floods
Of the cries of hung studs:
"Come into the closet and try us!"
A lascivious thing is a Green
Every tree, every shrub, every bean
Every beast classed "Endangered"
And life-forms far stranger
Must endure his attentions obscene!
A Minuteman was a staunch, fearless warder
Of the Brown Peril south of the border
'Til a boom-chicka chica
From south Costa Rica
Sucked him into a whole New World Order!
An Objectivist Atlas will shrug
When his girlfriend won't go past a hug
Self-reliant as Rand
Is his own nimble hand
On his Fountainhead ready to tug!
Socialists like to share their virility
But it brings social costs in fertility
For, "To each by her need!"
Is their true, solemn creed
But the sharing wears out the ability!
Libertarians swing and they play
You can use them most any which way
Straight, gay, trans, or bi
Or whatever you'll try
All while shouting, "For freedom! Hooray!"
A Republican man-about-town
Could make a smile vertical frown
For, at finish, the heel
Always made the girl kneel
And let all the wealth trickle down!
A Democrat is well-suited to diddle
In the sense that he's straight-up-the-middle
But, 'tween left and right hand
He can ne'er . . . make a stand
At the end, can just sit there and twiddle!
The proud stalwarts of the Tea Party
Have lusts that are hearty but naughty
Such as offering their sacks
As mid-morning snacks
To all and to sundry! How haughty!
A Theocon's holy and pious
But it seems that his judgment is biased
By his mind filled with floods
Of the cries of hung studs:
"Come into the closet and try us!"
A lascivious thing is a Green
Every tree, every shrub, every bean
Every beast classed "Endangered"
And life-forms far stranger
Must endure his attentions obscene!
A Minuteman was a staunch, fearless warder
Of the Brown Peril south of the border
'Til a boom-chicka chica
From south Costa Rica
Sucked him into a whole New World Order!
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M
miles
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Hey Oreo, why don't you ever start any nice tit or blowjob threads? "Anybody else having trouble with Lit chat?"would be more thought provoking than this dreck.
off2bed
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Tell me how much per pupil is spent by NYC or Washington DC schools, compare it to the amount spent per pupil in the best performing private schools, and tell me which is the shitty result.
M
miles
Guest
As I said, try posting some nekkid wimmen pics.
Luk
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