I don't understand the politics....

[MissTaken]

but, I do wish the soldiers were home.

I have moved to an area where many families are the families of deployed soldiers.

It is a difficult life, marrying military.

Just my Wednesday morning random thought.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think the problem is as in many/most things, the politics are driven by the capitalist dollar and the need to maintain that powerful position over all, add to the coffers of power and supposedly western supremacy, and enforce a way of life on another culture the powers that be see as inferior and in need of controlling to the best advantage of the west. I would love to believe it is all in the name of humanity and benevolent concern, but I am afraid I view that as highly unlikely.

How times have changed over the last few decades...is difficult to discern who the real enemy is anymore, and to believe anything is as we are lead to believe it is. Ever wonder why we are so strongly encouraged to embrace team spirit and frowned upon if we question anything our leaders decide is best, or want to be individual and still think? Ever notice in the last couple of years how the leaders of USA, UK, and Australia feel safe and/or comfortable to stand on inter/national television and declare they are going to go against the wishes of their citizens and justify their right to do so? Isn't that what once was considered by the free west to be dictator behaviour? ANd how many of us accept we have to tolerate it?

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

Like you, Miss T, I wish they were home, too.

I won't get into the politics of this because that is fruitless. No one at Lit will change my politics or opinions, and I have no desire to try and change anyone else's point of view.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Actually I like a few of the Dalai Lama's thoughts on such things, in particular his idea our leaders stand in the front line leading the forces as in days gone by and see just how ready they then are to send our men and women in as fodder for the war machine.
Is easy to make such decisions from behind an expensive desk in the lap of luxury, protected by an army of bodyguards and security, thousands of miles away from the blood and gore. How brave and honourable they are.

Catalina

 

[esclave_PP]

That is not only profound, but words to live by catalina -- for each and every one of us to take personal responsibility for our actions. Each of us are 100% responsible for our own actions. If we choose to do something we should be ready to deal with consequences and other aspects. Great thread!

 

[MissTaken]

Well, I admit that I got lost and confused in the politics of war early on. I am, in my naive way, disheartened to think that world leaders appear to be using real live citizens as pauns in a chess game.

However, I could be wrong.

I know a gal with an 18 month old child. Her husband is overseas and has been for nine months. He will be able to visit in Feb. I looked at the little guy today and thought that his dad is really going to be sad for missing such crucial years of his child's development.

Now, I realize that a soldier does his duty.
I just wish I were certain that this little guy's dad was missing out on his first years for a good reason.

I would support any soldier to the nth degree. I am just not sure that I can support the reasons for the actions.

However, can we really expect politicians to come clean with the reasons behind war? It appears that war has become more driven by money than injustice.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Wasn't it once said money was the root of all evil?

C

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Ay yi yi

Soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines ... all of them are human. Most of them would appreciate your first wish Miss T. They miss the families they were born into, married into, adopted, pick whatever flavor you can envision. i missed an anniversary, birthday, Thanksgiving, Xmas, New Year's, Valentine's Day, and all the little private events amongst those holidays a little over a decade ago. But i hold dear memories of most of those particular holidays because of the effort of loved ones and strangers to try to make them special.

Now i understand this may sound a little bizarre to some, but you'd have to live it to know it. Those in uniform have another family, and most would be loathe to leave before every last member of that family in uniform went home as well. Those that serve do so for a myriad of reasons. Sooner or later, a little magic called unit cohesion, or esprit de corps occurs. All of those myriad reasons coalesce into a singular purpose to complete the mission. i won't blow fairy dust up your posterior and say some wouldn't be on the first thing smoking west given the chance, but the number that wouldn't might shock you.

As for why on the current conflict, don't kid yourself. God forgive this generalization, but every shedding of soldiers' blood boils down to money or religion. i think we got a little bit of both on this one.

That said, i'll set the politics aside for a moment and simply share this. From the country currently occupied, i've seen opposing force soldiers up close, armed, and personal. In one moment, i would have taken a man's life. In the next, i had to hide tears of pity after he and dozens of his comrades surrendered. His leadership had failed him utterly, put him in a position to be a speed bump, and left him with little support much less food/water to live. That leadership continued to prosper more than ten years after the fact while the rest of the country's population suffered.

Most of us took solace that we had completed the stated mission ... return Kuwait's sovereignty to the citizens of the country. Unfortunately, the world got used to the idea that a successful war could be prosecuted in 100 hours with little loss of American/Coalition forces lives. Every one of us with a brain in uniform knew we'd be back. And i've always wondered what happened to that soldier and his buddies after the Saudis repatriated them.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I think many who weren't in uniform also knew it would happen again. Unfortunately world leaders do not give the 'plebs ' the credit for having brains and knowing how to use them and expect us all to believe their propoganda and covered up realitiy.

C

 

[WriterDom]

I think the problem is as in many/most things, the politics are driven by the capitalist dollar and the need to maintain that powerful position over all, add to the coffers of power and supposedly western supremacy, and enforce a way of life on another culture the powers that be see as inferior

The mass graves emerging in Iraq are so numerous and, in many cases, so extensive, they are no longer being excavated every day due to simple exhaustion.

So far, some 100 mass graves have been found throughout Iraq. It will take months, if not years, to exhume the people buried there.

That, to me, is inferior.

 

[catalina_francisco]

The mass graves emerging in Iraq are so numerous and, in many cases, so extensive, they are no longer being excavated every day due to simple exhaustion.

So far, some 100 mass graves have been found throughout Iraq. It will take months, if not years, to exhume the people buried there.

That, to me, is inferior.

Though sad, and a fact of life, I do not think it is a sign a people or culture is inferior, just they were victims of a meglomaniac. It would be nice to believe the western power mongers really cared apart from the political points they can score with the information, not to mention sell their storyline. Unfortunately, despite us supposedly living in more enlightened times. there is still that tendency for the developed world to apply their concepts and understandings to others and judge them as wanting and backward. Difference is still not respected by the majority. How boring a world we will become if all nations are expected to conform to the capitalist ideal and duplicate the culture in every detail worldwide.

Catalina

 

[AngelicAssassin]

kittycat, you and i agree/disagree on this topic in ways too Gordian to explain.

i so hate generalizations, but i'm going to let a few rip just to get them off my chest.

i'll agree a number of people out there on both sides of the ocean might actually have enough brain cells to rub together and understand a reason to go to war if told the stone cold truth. Hell, i'll go so far to say the balance tips to your side of the ocean when it comes to folks that bother to delve into the subject, form a coherent opinion based on facts rather than shoot from the hip, and make a judgement as to what's appropriate in their moral skein. i'll even go out on that scary limb and say a significant portion of the population on both sides might have the attention span to continue following a course of action to completion, adjust their opinion based on facts midstream, and have the intelligence to wave the BS flag when an original reason for doing something proves false.

Now let's slip back into the world of reality and whom those leaders have to please if they plan on continuing to be leaders of their respective countries in addition to having those countries still exist. Cut them a little slack if they have to dumb something down, appeal to a possibility as a fact rather than a definite, and on occasion explain a calculated gamble as a guaranteed thing. We, the world as a whole, spent 10 years dicking around with a "megalomaniac" i believe you named him, trying to make sure his wounded pride wouldn't go off the deep end by use of WMD. i could give a shit if after this is all over they found not a single remaining device. As for a differing philosophy or culture, i don't remember the Kurds getting much a chance by the ruling minority in their own country, and they sure as hell didn't eat bad mushrooms. If i'm not mistaken, the religious majority in the country had it pretty bad as well. Should we have waited for him to get his shit together and try something a little more grandiose?

This world hasn't had a Black&White threat for quite a while. But to wait for a potential threat to become one that everyone can rally around the flagpole to oppose ain't much of an option today. Any idea why they designated the last sandbox war under two different names and two different phases ... Shield and Storm? Better to have named them "Oh shit, we're a speedbump," and "we are going to give you the ass waxing of all time." It took 6 months of machinations to get enough combat power on the ground, the world community on the same sheet of music, and a promise to stop when the military force reached a very defined objective.

i no more love the Bubba opinion "nuke them 'til they glow" than Suzy Dairy Queen's "can't we all just get along?" One of the last things a military person wants to do is put training to actual practice. Odd thing, most in the military practice healthy pragmatism. If i have to appear the ugly American, so be it. If i have to kick someone in the balls to make sure i don't get stabbed in the back so be it. Better that than play isolationist in a world too small to do so anymore. We may be stupid, but we do learn from history.

Edited: for stupid spellchecker. Bitch slaps it across the room and yells "Next!"

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree with most of what you say AA, and have enough military background and experience in my own family to understand where the thoughts and feelings of the serveicemen and women generally rest...but they don't make the decisions and often are not bargaining on being in the position they are placed in by leaders who are safe. I also do not see it as a simplistic solution as you do not either. I do not approve of the way things are/have been done in many countries but still stand with my original statement that most if not all comes down to money and power all aided by corruption...and that their way does not have to meet with my understanding based on my own reality.

While we in the West may get a morality boost to feel we have done our little bit to right a wrong, perhaps it could have been prevented altogether and handled by the people involved if they had the resources and means. Much of the reason they don't is the capitalist elite countries keep the less developed in that state through a series of legal, political, and economic decisions which ensure it near impossible for them to have the means to help themselves. That does not then justify imposing one culture on another. The recent statement that Iraq would have a constitution introduced by the US based on the US model is a clear example. That may be the way the West likes to live, but it is not necessarily suited to a culture based on a completely different set of ideals and principles, and is insulting in that it takes their autonomous power away to develop and implement a system which is suited to them and of their making. That is the arrogance of the developed world's way of thinking and assuming their way is the right and only way and needs to be impressed upon those less able to fight it. It is not an either/or situation and respecting difference would go a long way.

Catalina

 

[DVS]

[No message]

 

[James G 5]

Wasn't it once said money was the root of all evil?

C

One of the most misquoted bits of the Bible
it actually says "For the LOVE of money is the root of all evil"

 

[catalina_francisco]

One of the most misquoted bits of the Bible
it actually says "For the LOVE of money is the root of all evil"

Don't read the bible so can't theoretically misquote it but to me the said quote still equates to what I said, there and in posts....money, or the love of it to clearer define, is the root of all evil in that it becomes the God in peoples lives to the extent they will sell their soul to the devil if they think it will get them one up on the neighbour and the social ladder. Leaders of contries are no better as they kill ands claw their way up that same ladder personally and patriotically. For instance, look at the continued speeches we hear about how there is no money to feed, clothe, and house our starving and homeless, no money to provide adequate health care, no money for educating our own children, no money to improve infrastructure of the nation, but they can expend ten times over the amounts needed to kill and impress their beliefs of how things should be done on other cultures. Didn't we send our troops to another country to fight a war in the 60's, expose them to Agent Orange and force them and their children/families to live with the long term effects,(and of course the powers that be denied that for a long time), then when they returned, ignore and deny them like lepers....and still as I'm sure Richard will verify, those remaining servicemen and women still are fighting just to have their needs met and their issues recognised and respected? Are we now again going to pretend it it did not happen, can't happen again, and that we are the white knights and all others the evil infidels?

I am not saying these cultures are perfect but perhaps we should look reality in the face instead of hiding behind the fallacy we have all the answers. Clearly everyday the evidence shows our own countries are in a mess and our leaders are as ready to kill it's citizens by proxy and neglect more so than the blatent examples seen in Iraq....but in the end death is death and the outcome is still the same if the dead body at the morgue is your family, friend, or neighbour, and to my way of thinking a lot less honest. Denial is a good friend for those who want to label others with the sins they themselves commit in disguised manner to draw away attention from what really happens in the cold hard light of day. Helping is one thing, taking over is another.....you can save someone elses life without imposing yourself on them for the rest of their life. Empowerment is much more friendly than oppression.

Some refuse to discuss the issue citing examples of atrocities committed. Those atrocities are real, but so are our own. Honesty at least can enable a more balanced approach and less self righteous preaching to the converted as if our way is the only way. If it is right for our governments to force a way of life on another culture because we like it, turn the tables for a moment and think if things had been slightly different how we would feel in the same circumstances. Can anyone honestly say they would welcome with open arms a regime moving in and telling us no more BDSM, coverage for women from head to toe, no freedom of religion, no voting, no more McDonalds, no more Hollywood, no more holidays on the Barrier Reef, no right to object? I doubt it and yet by expecting them to adopt our own style is doing the exact same to them. Difference is one thing, assuming one is better than another simply because we don't want to understand it is another. Isn't that supposedly why we have fought to maintain so called democracy and freedom for so long...to have the right to live how we feel comfortable...and can't we afford othres that same right? And as for personal examples, Master himself is the result of political mayhem and was a political refugee as a child when his family were forced to flee oppression, imprisonment, and enforcement of injustice and brutality on the people.

Catalina

 

[WriterDom]

We have spent $5.4 trillion (in constant dollars) on federal means-tested poverty programs since 1960.Yet the poverty rate is higher today than it was in 1965, when the War on Poverty was started. Throwing money at the poor isn't the answer. The answer in this country is people taking responsibility for themselves. Look within the black community where 85% of black teens are having children out of wedlock. When babies have babies with no father, or no family structure to speak of, that leads to problems that money just can't solve. White teens aren't much better at 60%. The Government isn't your fucking Daddy. You want to fix poverty you need to get people to cowboy up and take responsibility for their own lives.

 

[Kajira Callista]

We have spent $5.4 trillion (in constant dollars) on federal means-tested poverty programs since 1960.Yet the poverty rate is higher today than it was in 1965, when the War on Poverty was started. Throwing money at the poor isn't the answer. The answer in this country is people taking responsibility for themselves. Look within the black community where 85% of black teens are having children out of wedlock. When babies have babies with no father, or no family structure to speak of, that leads to problems that money just can't solve. White teens aren't much better at 60%. The Government isn't your fucking Daddy. You want to fix poverty you need to get people to cowboy up and take responsibility for their own lives.

Here is my two cents on that one. It is now going to be a never ending cycle...why because if you take a look at that 85% and 60% of kids having kids. Im betting its because the parents are struggling with two jobs and probably both parents working one paycheck to the gov for the poor the other to the bills. Makes for very little quality time spent educating your children on real life issues such as pregnancy or single parenting. I am in no way saying it is bad to go to work when you have children, we have to do what we have to do to survive. But maybe if the gov wants to stop the cycle, they should take a look at the reality of what is happening to families and own up to being the cause of some if not most of the problem.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Here is my two cents on that one. It is now going to be a never ending cycle...why because if you take a look at that 85% and 60% of kids having kids. Im betting its because the parents are struggling with two jobs and probably both parents working one paycheck to the gov for the poor the other to the bills. Makes for very little quality time spent educating your children on real life issues such as pregnancy or single parenting. I am in no way saying it is bad to go to work when you have children, we have to do what we have to do to survive. But maybe if the gov wants to stop the cycle, they should take a look at the reality of what is happening to families and own up to being the cause of some if not most of the problem.

Have to agree mostly KC, though there is a lot more involved. While I do not like victim behaviour as WD hints at, I think it goes both ways when you listen to the leaders tell us how they can't do anymore, but all of a sudden they can afford to kill people. Responsibility as you say is important and after living the reality first hand, and professionally dealing with the fallout also, I can tell you more average citizens take more responsibility everyday than our governments do. Problem is most politicians have lost touch with reality and don't know where to begin or care.

Fat wallets tend to corrupt faster than anything. Their decisions and policies create the shit then they walk away from it and beg for understanding. I don't notice our politicians taking paycuts but they are happy to suggest it for the vulnerable and poverty ridden communities. Ethics go out the window when their children finish their education....one of our Prime Minister's arranged top jobs for all his children...no starting at the bottom for his precious little darlings. Ad when so many are laid off, and politicians advocate freezing wages for the economy, how often do they at the same time pass a payrise for themselves and not just a few dollars either. Of course they need it but those surviving on a few dollars through no fault of their own are just asking too much to be given even $10 a week more. It is a joke...unfortunately most ordinary people are not laughing.

Catalina

 

[Kajira Callista]

I agree catalina! Most of these people dont know what it is like to live the life of the struggling working class....and never will, maybe it should be a requirement that they come live with us for a year? lol

 

[catalina_francisco]

I agree catalina! Most of these people dont know what it is like to live the life of the struggling working class....and never will, maybe it should be a requirement that they come live with us for a year? lol

I don't think it is coincidence that when I was a child and growing up in Australia, by and large politicians came from average backgrounds and often still worked in their profession or position even if on a lesser scale...and as such were more in touch with the everyday reality of the average person and kept that in mind when making decisions. Today our politicians are professional politicians who often come from wealthy backgrounds, and do not co-exist in an average world instead living, working, and socialising 24/7 in the political circle totally out of touch with most people's reality. and as such making decisions based on that understanding of their own reality.

I remember a statement made by a top politician a couple of years ago when asked how he thought workers were going to cope with Christmas for their families after being laid off from low paying jobs early in December. His reply was he was sure as much as they might not like it they would perhaps have to tighten their belts, sell one of their cars (one of their cars!!), not dine out so often, and/or draw on some of ther savings. When asked what savings, he answered that everybody could scrape up an odd few thousand dollars from their bank account if they really wanted or needed. Wow, he was in touch for sure!!!

Similar story a few years back when a politician set out to demonstrate how easy it was to live on welfare. He had his wage kept back for a couple of weeks, took a welfare payment for that time, and put off paying out on anything that needed paying for until he was able to collect his pollie wages at the end of the experiment. Stupid man still claimed at the end it was easy and even fun!! Seemed to forget the rest don't do it for two weeks knowing there is a huge bank account and salary waiting for their return.

Catalina

 

[WriterDom]

Fat wallets tend to corrupt faster than anything. Their decisions and policies create the shit then they walk away from it and beg for understanding. I don't notice our politicians taking paycuts but they are happy to suggest it for the vulnerable and poverty ridden communities. :

A member of the House makes $154,700 a year, as of Jan 1, 03.

You think that is too much? And if so, what would you consider a fair salary to be?

By the way, Tiger Woods makes $165,000 a day.

 

[Kajira Callista]

A member of the House makes $154,700 a year, as of Jan 1, 03.

You think that is too much? And if so, what would you consider a fair salary to be?

By the way, Tiger Woods makes $165,000 a day.

Now now writer dom...you know these are old money ppl...they could never survive on that much money. Now come see ADRS toes and have some coffee.

 

[WriterDom]

Now come see ADRS toes and have some coffee.

Her feet walk through my mind enough as it is.

 

[catalina_francisco]

A member of the House makes $154,700 a year, as of Jan 1, 03.

You think that is too much? And if so, what would you consider a fair salary to be?

By the way, Tiger Woods makes $165,000 a day.

As I said and mentioned in my post WD I was speaking on Australian Pollies which are the ones I am most familiar with. Sorry if you missed that. But yes, I wouldn't mind that wage, and I think they are overpaid and out of touch, especially as I pointed out, they don't see why a man on $30,000 or less a year can't support his family. At one point in time and probably not changed, our PM made more than your President in a year....no rhyme or reason.