I/you stories; are there alternatives that work better? what are they?
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Softouch911
Literotica Guru
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To repeat:
First person is difficult because:
a) the physical limits imposed by first person -- the narrator is limited by sight, sound, etc., to his own experience; the third person can (if you allow any degree of omniscience) see "behind the wall."
b) the first person -- narrator -- has to be a character in the story. Lots of publishers complain that most of their stories in first person come from people who are just writing as themselves. They just observe and react with no real characterization to set them apart from flat stereotypes.
c) the first person is limited to a character with all of his/her shortcomings. For example, a character is uneducated or injured or asleep ... the story is going to have a problem at such times. If the character is a "normal" (i.e., predictable and uninteresting) person, the pov creates a problem for plot because the writer has to overload the plot to make the story have interest. And something awfully interesting has to happen if we don't care about one of the characters, let alone the one telling the story!
d) if the first person has become a character, s/he is often the main character, intimately and very emotionally involved in the action and outcome of the story -- and therefore not a very reliable witness to the goings on.
As others have observed, some of the best stories on earth are written in first person. These authors have overcome the difficulties. To say it's hard to do isn't to say not to try it. (Third person also has serious limits ... with intimacy for example.)
The I/you story in letter form isn't, to some people's way of thinking, a "true" I/you story because the letters are signed ... in other words, they are all first person exchanges between two, or more, characters. Emily writes to Arthur; Arthur writes back. They say "I" and "you" to one another, and we can accept the illusion that we are one or both of them if we want, or not.
The difficulty of writing an "I" story (where the I is the writer) to a "you" (where the you is the reader) is pretty obvious ... I don't know you. And I can't imagine I'm actually doing something with/to/because of you when I'm sitting on my butt and reading the story. "Suspension of disbelief" only goes so far!
Great discussion!
ST
First person is difficult because:
a) the physical limits imposed by first person -- the narrator is limited by sight, sound, etc., to his own experience; the third person can (if you allow any degree of omniscience) see "behind the wall."
b) the first person -- narrator -- has to be a character in the story. Lots of publishers complain that most of their stories in first person come from people who are just writing as themselves. They just observe and react with no real characterization to set them apart from flat stereotypes.
c) the first person is limited to a character with all of his/her shortcomings. For example, a character is uneducated or injured or asleep ... the story is going to have a problem at such times. If the character is a "normal" (i.e., predictable and uninteresting) person, the pov creates a problem for plot because the writer has to overload the plot to make the story have interest. And something awfully interesting has to happen if we don't care about one of the characters, let alone the one telling the story!
d) if the first person has become a character, s/he is often the main character, intimately and very emotionally involved in the action and outcome of the story -- and therefore not a very reliable witness to the goings on.
As others have observed, some of the best stories on earth are written in first person. These authors have overcome the difficulties. To say it's hard to do isn't to say not to try it. (Third person also has serious limits ... with intimacy for example.)
The I/you story in letter form isn't, to some people's way of thinking, a "true" I/you story because the letters are signed ... in other words, they are all first person exchanges between two, or more, characters. Emily writes to Arthur; Arthur writes back. They say "I" and "you" to one another, and we can accept the illusion that we are one or both of them if we want, or not.
The difficulty of writing an "I" story (where the I is the writer) to a "you" (where the you is the reader) is pretty obvious ... I don't know you. And I can't imagine I'm actually doing something with/to/because of you when I'm sitting on my butt and reading the story. "Suspension of disbelief" only goes so far!
Great discussion!
ST
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G
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K - rip away
A first person mash note I was considering turning into a little story..]
go for it - I can take it
_____________
I was thinking of you again.
The air has turned, it has a crisp and energetic feel. I know you are a morning person, but I live for the dusk, the excitement and energy of a lunar influence.
I imagine that it's early, just dark and the moon is still low and full in the sky. We are driving, some quiet music on, your had is warm around mine, trembling slightly. I like to watch your face in concentration, the smile that breaks out when you glance at me.
You pull into the wharf parking, there is no one else around. Here, by the water, it is quiet; almost still except for the sea lapping the shore. Farther off the noises of the city are audible, but unimportant.
We get out, come around to the front of the hood and lean our backs against it, admiring the moon and the quiet sounds of the evening. You pull me to you, my ass fitting neatly into your groin. Your cock is hard and pressing into the cleft of my cheeks, I feel it warm and ready through your jeans, the thin material of my long, voluminous skirt. I am not wearing underwear, and despite the brisk evening air, I warm, moisten, arching against you as your hands roam over my torso.
I feel your breath on my temple, on my neck. Soft touches of your lips pressed against my skin, here, up there, in there. Those undo me, David.
You know what I want, you always know what I need. Always prepared, thoughtful, responsive to my desires. Suddenly your body tenses, you reach into your pocket.
A plastic click and you reach under my skirt, your fingers wet and slick. You probe my anus, prodding gently as you smooth the cool lotion. Your index finger slips in, and your rub the ring, contracting lightly with your attention. Your hand withdraws, back, undoing your jeans, and you bump me, pushing me forward as you bring out your cock, I lift my skirt between us and you poise it at my ass, allowing me to rest lightly against you.
You reach into your pocket again, bringing out my little friend, and you palm it, bringing your hand around to press it on my mons, pressing it firmly into my clit.
The crown of my head falls against your jaw. The vibe draws shuddering contractions from me, my anus contracts, relaxes, opening for you, and your cock slowly slides into my ass.
You hit bottom, staying there, feeling me adjust, the muscles squeezing and relaxing, the trembling in my legs from pleasure. My breath is rapid, my cries barely audible, an exotic yearning keen vibrating in the hollow of my throat.
Slowly, in deference to the newness of its use, you fuck me, there, by the quiet water. Pulling me by the hips on and off your cock, holding me on you when your cock surges with hot blood.
You feel me tremble harder now, sensing yet another flood of release from me, and you feel the hot flush of readiness fill your groin, the insides of your thighs. You turn your mind to an earlier conversation, wanting to prolong the moment. You know that I like to hear you talk, and you feel something is appropriate; you want to excite me even further. Still - "dialogue" isn't something that comes to you naturally, especially in the heat of the moment. You don't want to say something that doesn't come off right, either.
I am writhing, arching, needing and taking from you what I have craved and desired for so long, and it is so much better than I ever thought it could be. My sounds are now broken whimpers of pleasure, half-said whispers.
Finally, it is simple. Your need is fed by the knowledge that I am waiting, for you, for a signal, for the fulfillment of your seed pumping hot and slickery inside me.
"Come for me, baby. I need you."
A first person mash note I was considering turning into a little story..]
go for it - I can take it
_____________
I was thinking of you again.
The air has turned, it has a crisp and energetic feel. I know you are a morning person, but I live for the dusk, the excitement and energy of a lunar influence.
I imagine that it's early, just dark and the moon is still low and full in the sky. We are driving, some quiet music on, your had is warm around mine, trembling slightly. I like to watch your face in concentration, the smile that breaks out when you glance at me.
You pull into the wharf parking, there is no one else around. Here, by the water, it is quiet; almost still except for the sea lapping the shore. Farther off the noises of the city are audible, but unimportant.
We get out, come around to the front of the hood and lean our backs against it, admiring the moon and the quiet sounds of the evening. You pull me to you, my ass fitting neatly into your groin. Your cock is hard and pressing into the cleft of my cheeks, I feel it warm and ready through your jeans, the thin material of my long, voluminous skirt. I am not wearing underwear, and despite the brisk evening air, I warm, moisten, arching against you as your hands roam over my torso.
I feel your breath on my temple, on my neck. Soft touches of your lips pressed against my skin, here, up there, in there. Those undo me, David.
You know what I want, you always know what I need. Always prepared, thoughtful, responsive to my desires. Suddenly your body tenses, you reach into your pocket.
A plastic click and you reach under my skirt, your fingers wet and slick. You probe my anus, prodding gently as you smooth the cool lotion. Your index finger slips in, and your rub the ring, contracting lightly with your attention. Your hand withdraws, back, undoing your jeans, and you bump me, pushing me forward as you bring out your cock, I lift my skirt between us and you poise it at my ass, allowing me to rest lightly against you.
You reach into your pocket again, bringing out my little friend, and you palm it, bringing your hand around to press it on my mons, pressing it firmly into my clit.
The crown of my head falls against your jaw. The vibe draws shuddering contractions from me, my anus contracts, relaxes, opening for you, and your cock slowly slides into my ass.
You hit bottom, staying there, feeling me adjust, the muscles squeezing and relaxing, the trembling in my legs from pleasure. My breath is rapid, my cries barely audible, an exotic yearning keen vibrating in the hollow of my throat.
Slowly, in deference to the newness of its use, you fuck me, there, by the quiet water. Pulling me by the hips on and off your cock, holding me on you when your cock surges with hot blood.
You feel me tremble harder now, sensing yet another flood of release from me, and you feel the hot flush of readiness fill your groin, the insides of your thighs. You turn your mind to an earlier conversation, wanting to prolong the moment. You know that I like to hear you talk, and you feel something is appropriate; you want to excite me even further. Still - "dialogue" isn't something that comes to you naturally, especially in the heat of the moment. You don't want to say something that doesn't come off right, either.
I am writhing, arching, needing and taking from you what I have craved and desired for so long, and it is so much better than I ever thought it could be. My sounds are now broken whimpers of pleasure, half-said whispers.
Finally, it is simple. Your need is fed by the knowledge that I am waiting, for you, for a signal, for the fulfillment of your seed pumping hot and slickery inside me.
"Come for me, baby. I need you."
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Posts
- 15,135
baby's story. re draft 1 and re draft 2
First of all, we try the simple substitutions that yield first person. I give the person a name, so every 'you' becomes either Gar or he/him.
First redraft
------
I'm thinking of Gar again.
The air has turned, it has a crisp and energetic feel. I know he is a morning person, but I live for the dusk, the excitement and energy of a lunar influence.
I imagine that it's early, just dark and the moon is still low and full in the sky. We are driving, some quiet music on, his hand is warm around mine, trembling slightly. I like to watch his face in concentration, the smile that breaks out when he glances at me.
Gar pulls into the wharf parking; there is no one else around. Here, by the water, it is quiet, still except for the sea lapping the shore. Farther off, the noises of the city are audible, but unimportant.
We get out, come around to the front of the hood and lean our backs against it, admiring the moon and the quiet sounds of the evening. Gar pulls me to him, my ass fitting neatly into his groin.
His cock is hard and pressing into the cleft of my cheeks, I feel it warm and ready through his jeans, the thin material of my long, voluminous skirt. I am not wearing underwear, and despite the brisk evening air, I warm, moisten, arching against Gar as his hands roam over my torso.
I feel his breath on my temple, on my neck. Soft touches of his lips pressed against my skin, here, up there, in there. Those undo me, Gar.
Gar knows what I want, he always knows what I need. Always prepared, thoughtful, responsive to my desires. Suddenly his body tenses, he reaches into your pocket.
A plastic click and Gar reaches under my skirt, his fingers wet and slick. He probes my anus, prodding gently as he smoothes the cool lotion. His index finger slips in, and he rubs the ring, contracting lightly with the attention. His hand withdraws, back, undoing his jeans, and he bumps me, pushing me forward as he brings out his cock, I lift my skirt between us and Gar poises it at my ass, allowing me to rest lightly against him.
Gar reaches into his pocket again, bringing out my little friend, and he palms it, bringing his hand around to press it on my mons, pressing it firmly into my clit.
The crown of my head falls against your jaw. The vibe draws shuddering contractions from me, my anus contracts, relaxes, opening for him, and his cock slowly slides into my ass.
[end excerpt]
=====
This is not really very satisfactory.
Problems:
Tense.
Some issues of style.
No story.
Characters seem unreal, insubstantial. No insight into woman's feelings.
REDRAFT 2
====
I had been thinking of Gar again, that day, early last October. I had not seen him since the spring before.
The air had turned, it had a crisp and energetic feel. I knew he was a morning person, but I lived for the dusk, the excitement and energy of a lunar influence. That evening, he came.
It was early, just dark and the moon is still low and full in the sky. He said, "Let's go for a drive. I have a surprise for you." In the car, I put some quiet music on. His hand was warm around mine, trembling slightly. I liked to watch his face in concentration, the smile that broke out when he glanced at me.
Gar pulled into the wharf parking; there was no one else around. Here, by the water, it was quiet, still except for the sound of the sea lapping the shore. Farther off, I could hear the noises of the city, but they were unimportant.
We got out, came around to the front of the hood and leaned our backs against it, admiring the moon and the quiet sounds of the evening. Gar pulled me to him, my ass fitting neatly into his groin.
His cock was hard and pressing into the cleft of my cheeks. I felt it warm and ready through his jeans, the thin material of my long, voluminous skirt. I was not wearing underwear, and despite the brisk evening air, I warmed, moistened, arching against Gar as his hands roamed over my breasts.
I felt his breath on my temple, on my neck. Soft touches of his lips pressed against my skin, here, up there, in there. I was undone. I wanted him to fuck me right there.
Gar always knew what I wanted, what I needed; always prepared, and responsive to my desires. Suddenly his body tensed. he reached into his pocket. I thought he was reaching for a condom.
There was plastic click and Gar reached under my skirt, his fingers wet and slick. Passing my pussy, he went for my ass, the hole, prodding gently as he smoothed the cool lotion. I flinched. We'd done this only once before, and it had not been great. I looked over my shoulder at him, questioningly. "Relax," he said. "This is your surprise."
He slipped his index finger into me, and rubbed the ring, which contracted lightly with the attention. His hand withdrew, undoing his jeans, and he bumped me, pushing me forward as he brought out his cock. My pussy was soaked as I lifted my skirt between us, and Gar poised his cock at my ass, allowing me to rest lightly against him.
Gar reached into his pocket again, bringing out my little friend. "This will help," he said, "It's best when your pussy goes crazy, as well." He palmed it, bringing his hand around to hold it on my mount, pressing it firmly into my clit. The vibe drew shuddering contractions in my pussy and ass. The crown of my head fell back against his jaw. My hole was opening and closing for him. My ass. I wanted it right there. His cock slid in, like a boat easing into its berth.
===
QUESTION: How well did this salvage succeed? Is there a better way?
Anyone want to have go at some other approach, e.g. third person.?
Final comments:
The I/you form, while hot in its way, lacked a number of necessary ingredients for even an episode, not to say, a story. The final re draft approaches a 'story episode.'
Oddly, the lack of insight into the charcters was a main problem.
One could argue about whether it's a general writing problem or the I/you format, but i won't get into that. Let's say that the format allowed baby to ignore some things-- things she would likely have noticed and fixed in one of the 'traditional' first or third person points of view, found in erotic stories..
First of all, we try the simple substitutions that yield first person. I give the person a name, so every 'you' becomes either Gar or he/him.
First redraft
------
I'm thinking of Gar again.
The air has turned, it has a crisp and energetic feel. I know he is a morning person, but I live for the dusk, the excitement and energy of a lunar influence.
I imagine that it's early, just dark and the moon is still low and full in the sky. We are driving, some quiet music on, his hand is warm around mine, trembling slightly. I like to watch his face in concentration, the smile that breaks out when he glances at me.
Gar pulls into the wharf parking; there is no one else around. Here, by the water, it is quiet, still except for the sea lapping the shore. Farther off, the noises of the city are audible, but unimportant.
We get out, come around to the front of the hood and lean our backs against it, admiring the moon and the quiet sounds of the evening. Gar pulls me to him, my ass fitting neatly into his groin.
His cock is hard and pressing into the cleft of my cheeks, I feel it warm and ready through his jeans, the thin material of my long, voluminous skirt. I am not wearing underwear, and despite the brisk evening air, I warm, moisten, arching against Gar as his hands roam over my torso.
I feel his breath on my temple, on my neck. Soft touches of his lips pressed against my skin, here, up there, in there. Those undo me, Gar.
Gar knows what I want, he always knows what I need. Always prepared, thoughtful, responsive to my desires. Suddenly his body tenses, he reaches into your pocket.
A plastic click and Gar reaches under my skirt, his fingers wet and slick. He probes my anus, prodding gently as he smoothes the cool lotion. His index finger slips in, and he rubs the ring, contracting lightly with the attention. His hand withdraws, back, undoing his jeans, and he bumps me, pushing me forward as he brings out his cock, I lift my skirt between us and Gar poises it at my ass, allowing me to rest lightly against him.
Gar reaches into his pocket again, bringing out my little friend, and he palms it, bringing his hand around to press it on my mons, pressing it firmly into my clit.
The crown of my head falls against your jaw. The vibe draws shuddering contractions from me, my anus contracts, relaxes, opening for him, and his cock slowly slides into my ass.
[end excerpt]
=====
This is not really very satisfactory.
Problems:
Tense.
Some issues of style.
No story.
Characters seem unreal, insubstantial. No insight into woman's feelings.
REDRAFT 2
====
I had been thinking of Gar again, that day, early last October. I had not seen him since the spring before.
The air had turned, it had a crisp and energetic feel. I knew he was a morning person, but I lived for the dusk, the excitement and energy of a lunar influence. That evening, he came.
It was early, just dark and the moon is still low and full in the sky. He said, "Let's go for a drive. I have a surprise for you." In the car, I put some quiet music on. His hand was warm around mine, trembling slightly. I liked to watch his face in concentration, the smile that broke out when he glanced at me.
Gar pulled into the wharf parking; there was no one else around. Here, by the water, it was quiet, still except for the sound of the sea lapping the shore. Farther off, I could hear the noises of the city, but they were unimportant.
We got out, came around to the front of the hood and leaned our backs against it, admiring the moon and the quiet sounds of the evening. Gar pulled me to him, my ass fitting neatly into his groin.
His cock was hard and pressing into the cleft of my cheeks. I felt it warm and ready through his jeans, the thin material of my long, voluminous skirt. I was not wearing underwear, and despite the brisk evening air, I warmed, moistened, arching against Gar as his hands roamed over my breasts.
I felt his breath on my temple, on my neck. Soft touches of his lips pressed against my skin, here, up there, in there. I was undone. I wanted him to fuck me right there.
Gar always knew what I wanted, what I needed; always prepared, and responsive to my desires. Suddenly his body tensed. he reached into his pocket. I thought he was reaching for a condom.
There was plastic click and Gar reached under my skirt, his fingers wet and slick. Passing my pussy, he went for my ass, the hole, prodding gently as he smoothed the cool lotion. I flinched. We'd done this only once before, and it had not been great. I looked over my shoulder at him, questioningly. "Relax," he said. "This is your surprise."
He slipped his index finger into me, and rubbed the ring, which contracted lightly with the attention. His hand withdrew, undoing his jeans, and he bumped me, pushing me forward as he brought out his cock. My pussy was soaked as I lifted my skirt between us, and Gar poised his cock at my ass, allowing me to rest lightly against him.
Gar reached into his pocket again, bringing out my little friend. "This will help," he said, "It's best when your pussy goes crazy, as well." He palmed it, bringing his hand around to hold it on my mount, pressing it firmly into my clit. The vibe drew shuddering contractions in my pussy and ass. The crown of my head fell back against his jaw. My hole was opening and closing for him. My ass. I wanted it right there. His cock slid in, like a boat easing into its berth.
===
QUESTION: How well did this salvage succeed? Is there a better way?
Anyone want to have go at some other approach, e.g. third person.?
Final comments:
The I/you form, while hot in its way, lacked a number of necessary ingredients for even an episode, not to say, a story. The final re draft approaches a 'story episode.'
Oddly, the lack of insight into the charcters was a main problem.
One could argue about whether it's a general writing problem or the I/you format, but i won't get into that. Let's say that the format allowed baby to ignore some things-- things she would likely have noticed and fixed in one of the 'traditional' first or third person points of view, found in erotic stories..
Last edited:
Penelope Street
Literotica Guru
- Joined
- May 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,471
Solely because it was the first in the list with a link, I took a look at this story: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Song_of_Stone. Abel and Morgan are both characters in a tale Abel relates to Morgan as it happens, so it is a present-tense I/you story. It is copyrighted, but you can read the first several pages at amazon.com. I read the entire excerpt and would have continued, so the perspective certainly worked for me in this piece.Pure said:
After more than a quick glance, I'm confortable that I/you stories can be considered second-person. I also agree about food for thought, especially that 'exhausting' one!Verdad said:
I'm not quite sure why it's much more difficult to move the action forward in present tense than in past tense?evanslily said:
Seems to me some of these issues exist in third-person too. For instance, predictable and uninteresting characters are part of the recipe for a dull tale regardless of who tells it, right?ST said:
So true!ST said:
Hi and thank you for sharing!babygrrl_702 said:
Like tanyachr's piece, this is also well-written, but there are a few subtle reasons I liked this one a little better.
First, the narrator makes it clear enough that she's imagining the entire episode, and fantasies require no suspension of disbelief.
Second, the 'you' character has a name before the sex begins. I think it would be better to include this name even sooner, in the first line if you can. By giving the character a name, I think it makes it more personal and therefore a little sexier too. Plus, it's clear I'm not supposed to be David. Not only does this eliminate the issues associated with the reader being a character, but it also gives the tale a naughty voyeuristic aspect. I suppose it's a coincidence that David is also the name of 'you' character in tanyachr's story?
I even liked the tense issues the scene has because it lends a realistic feel, as if someone really was just pouring their feelings into words and not worrying quite so much about writing.
For a mash note, it's first rate- but I'm afraid there's just no way a scene can move me the way a story can.
After reading Pure's sample version that changes the perspective to purely first-person, I don't think it helped much, if at all. So we're back to Verdad's conclusion. Or at least I am.
Verdad said:
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Posts
- 15,135
questions
it seems there are at least three kinds of 1/you stories.
1) Where "You" is the reader
2) Where "you" is a generalized other, as in "you never know."
3) Where "You" is a particular person, e.g. the author/narrator's lover, who may even be named.
the hawthorne story seems to be either 1) or 2) and it's still reprinted; i.e. some think it works.
In general, Question I) are the problems of I-you linked esp. to one of the three?
verdad, in a recent posting--for which we say, "thanks!"-- said in part:
Written initially, in most cases, for a particular person, I/you stories conveniently bypass everything a writer normally sweats for. There's no need to make the characters compelling, since they already are, at least to that first reader. There's no need to make their actions plausible or understandable, either, since the first reader understands motivations and proclivities perfectly, odd as they may appear to everyone else. A stylistic revision alone, while procuring a neater product, won't be able to solve that.
verdad seems to be thinking of type 3. v argues based on 'no need,' and i think that's correct as far as it goes. BUT, lots of first person stories fail in the same way: a first person story about me ["i"] and Jessamyne will often fail because the "I" is left unfleshed out. in porn, the "I" just gropes, sucks, fucks, comes like crazy.
the point then might be that the good writer, rises about this 'need' and thinks about the reader, tries to make "I" real as a person. uses a variety of incidents to "show" the I, besides g,s,f,c.
let's consider v's point, [written] 'for a particular person.'
have you ever done a commission? how would you do it? personally, i'd choose third person.
if "Millie" writes to me and wants a gangbang story where she's the object [see
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=466935 ],
i'm going to write, Millie was reading the personals when she saw the ad: "gangbangs arranged, call 111-222-3333." Without even hesitating, or using 'call block' she dialed the number, even though she wasn't sure what she'd say. The person who answered, a young woman, instantly made Millie feel at ease. "I'm Pat." She asked, "How many," and Millie said, "Six or eight."
It was as if she was talking to a caterer about supplying food to wedding guests. "What do you absolutely NOT want?" said Pat.
Millie hesitated, "Anal."
"No problem," said Pat, brightly. "Many first timers say that."
After a few more questions. "Would you like description of the guests or just see the drs. certificates?-- we can fax them."
"Just the certificates," said Millie.
"That's wise. We always have those on file. Your safety and satisfaction is first!"
====
my point is that the reader may not be learning a lot about Millie, except that she's eager for the event, but still wants a couple precautions.
to make a good story, however, as above, the author is probably going to have to add a bit. as v said, correctly, the author "need not." but he or she will, if serious. one would like to have a little back story maybe.
"Millie had been toying with the idea for months. It started when she read an interview with the former porn star, Annabelle Chong, an intelligent and articulate young lady, a college graduate, who'd once fucked over 200 guys on film. Millie had felt vaguely disturbed, but couldn't help ordering the film. When it arrived a couple weeks later, she watched it and couldn't help touching herself; and the images would not leave her mind: the dozens of guys lined up and the slender young woman handling all of them without getting ruffled in the least.
----
What is my point? just as the lazy 'commission' writer is going to say, "Millie walked into the room and saw the half dozen guys lounging about, in shorts, and watching the Ultimate Fighter. She lay down on the mattress, and the first fellow, Boris, who was huge, knelt between her legs.... " A more serious writer might want to find out about Millie, convey that to the reader, and not take her for granted, or ignore her past and character, as verdad suggests is likely.
==
in any case, Question II) supposing v is absolutely correct about almost all type 3) i-you stories, do the points apply equally to the other types?
Question III) And to what extent are the problems-- so to say, multiple opportunities for laziness in a writer that (says v) abound in i-you stories-- by no means particular [intrinsic] to that type, as the first person and third person examples illustrate.
thanks to v for the lucid arguments, which are in many ways convincing, based on examples considered in this thread. that said, let's consider some further issues.
it seems there are at least three kinds of 1/you stories.
1) Where "You" is the reader
2) Where "you" is a generalized other, as in "you never know."
3) Where "You" is a particular person, e.g. the author/narrator's lover, who may even be named.
the hawthorne story seems to be either 1) or 2) and it's still reprinted; i.e. some think it works.
In general, Question I) are the problems of I-you linked esp. to one of the three?
verdad, in a recent posting--for which we say, "thanks!"-- said in part:
Written initially, in most cases, for a particular person, I/you stories conveniently bypass everything a writer normally sweats for. There's no need to make the characters compelling, since they already are, at least to that first reader. There's no need to make their actions plausible or understandable, either, since the first reader understands motivations and proclivities perfectly, odd as they may appear to everyone else. A stylistic revision alone, while procuring a neater product, won't be able to solve that.
verdad seems to be thinking of type 3. v argues based on 'no need,' and i think that's correct as far as it goes. BUT, lots of first person stories fail in the same way: a first person story about me ["i"] and Jessamyne will often fail because the "I" is left unfleshed out. in porn, the "I" just gropes, sucks, fucks, comes like crazy.
the point then might be that the good writer, rises about this 'need' and thinks about the reader, tries to make "I" real as a person. uses a variety of incidents to "show" the I, besides g,s,f,c.
let's consider v's point, [written] 'for a particular person.'
have you ever done a commission? how would you do it? personally, i'd choose third person.
if "Millie" writes to me and wants a gangbang story where she's the object [see
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=466935 ],
i'm going to write, Millie was reading the personals when she saw the ad: "gangbangs arranged, call 111-222-3333." Without even hesitating, or using 'call block' she dialed the number, even though she wasn't sure what she'd say. The person who answered, a young woman, instantly made Millie feel at ease. "I'm Pat." She asked, "How many," and Millie said, "Six or eight."
It was as if she was talking to a caterer about supplying food to wedding guests. "What do you absolutely NOT want?" said Pat.
Millie hesitated, "Anal."
"No problem," said Pat, brightly. "Many first timers say that."
After a few more questions. "Would you like description of the guests or just see the drs. certificates?-- we can fax them."
"Just the certificates," said Millie.
"That's wise. We always have those on file. Your safety and satisfaction is first!"
====
my point is that the reader may not be learning a lot about Millie, except that she's eager for the event, but still wants a couple precautions.
to make a good story, however, as above, the author is probably going to have to add a bit. as v said, correctly, the author "need not." but he or she will, if serious. one would like to have a little back story maybe.
"Millie had been toying with the idea for months. It started when she read an interview with the former porn star, Annabelle Chong, an intelligent and articulate young lady, a college graduate, who'd once fucked over 200 guys on film. Millie had felt vaguely disturbed, but couldn't help ordering the film. When it arrived a couple weeks later, she watched it and couldn't help touching herself; and the images would not leave her mind: the dozens of guys lined up and the slender young woman handling all of them without getting ruffled in the least.
----
What is my point? just as the lazy 'commission' writer is going to say, "Millie walked into the room and saw the half dozen guys lounging about, in shorts, and watching the Ultimate Fighter. She lay down on the mattress, and the first fellow, Boris, who was huge, knelt between her legs.... " A more serious writer might want to find out about Millie, convey that to the reader, and not take her for granted, or ignore her past and character, as verdad suggests is likely.
==
in any case, Question II) supposing v is absolutely correct about almost all type 3) i-you stories, do the points apply equally to the other types?
Question III) And to what extent are the problems-- so to say, multiple opportunities for laziness in a writer that (says v) abound in i-you stories-- by no means particular [intrinsic] to that type, as the first person and third person examples illustrate.
thanks to v for the lucid arguments, which are in many ways convincing, based on examples considered in this thread. that said, let's consider some further issues.
Last edited:
Softouch911
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Pure said:
Exactly.
Way back in the 19th C when the modern story was just happening, and even I was young, Mark Twain did the Huck Finn, and Melville opened with "Call me Ishmael," and the first person was born of memorable characters. Sherwood Anderson launched the modern story with characters ("Winesburg, Ohio") who were "grotesque" (and therefore interesting) but specialized in similar characters in first person -- one chestnut is "I Want to Know Why" in which the character is memorable for the turmoil he goes through.
The problem always seems to be the "you." Certainly I've never solved it, and it's easy to point at successful examples that are even centuries old because they are so infrequent and created much as you broke them down .,.. 1, 2, 3.
Thanks, Pure, this is actually getting clearer.
ST
Penelope Street
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Pure said:
In the first case, I can't remember a single 'story' that's really a story. This, I think, is the real problem, not the perspective, though I don't imagine the point-of-view helps either. These little scenes are probably effective to the unique reader for whom they are intended and perchance even more so for the writer. I think the mistake is expecting such a piece to find a wide audience.
While the second case is technically second-person, I'm not inclined to think of it being second-person in any manner beyond that.
Having read but a single sample from the links above, I think the third case is the one where second-person can work- but it still needs to be a real, well-written story before it's going to pull me in.
Thanks for a great thread! It's opened my eyes just a bit regarding what the real issue is with second-person vignettes. At least for me, vignettes rarely work regardless of perspective, so it's silly to imagine that altering the perspective will suddenly make them meaningful.
Take Care,
Penny
Verdad
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Hi, Pure, I'm a bit late, but I found your questions intriguing.
I agree with you that lack of plot and characterization, as well as everything else you summed up under "lazy writing", lie at root of most second person failures, but as you pointed out, these problems are neither exclusive nor inherent to second person narration.
We could say, perhaps, that they're its usual correlates, due to inexperienced writers' belief that second person provides an instant way around characterization (and hence their love for this narrative person), but if we want to discuss problems intrinsic to second person, I believe we're back to allowing a degree of reader's displacement.
The classification of "you" you proposed strikes me as a useful idea, but it should be pointed out that taking it too literally could be deceiving, as it obscures the intrinsically ambiguous nature of "you".
Rather than saying that there are several types of second person narratives based on the identity of "you", I think we're groping for something like several modes of relating to "you", which can coexist in a single story and sometimes even in a single sentence.
While we can, for example, decide upon reading a story that the overall "you" is a distinct character—narrator's lover, as in your number 3, is but one possibility—the very choice of second person reminds that "you" could also signify "one" (i.e. every-one), as well as you in particular. The reading process thus inevitably includes continuous questioning and redefining of "you's" boundaries, a layered-ness and mutability particular to second person, which we're disregarding if we categorize solely on the basis of final destination.
The question remains, however, of how to make this particularity work for better rather than for worse, and the answer I'm finding in the successful examples confirms my intuition about reader entrapment.
Taking a look at the opening of Italo Calvino's classic, we can observe that Calvino goes for the boldest possibility of all and addresses the reader in the most direct of ways. He speaks, indeed, to a person who's just bought his book and is cracking it open. We can also observe, though, that despite this bold move, Calvino never entraps the reader, or, to put it in terms of dialogue with the reader I mentioned in my previous post, he never gives the reader a reason to disagree.
The way he achieves this is through listing a number of situations that could apply to "you", thus allowing the reader to slip in and out of the skin of addressee. Once a number of possible/theoretical "you's" has been created, the statements that aren't true for one are easily accepted as true for others.
It's important to note, though, that the 'trick' Calvino employs isn't the only way of avoiding entrapment—Hawthorne's example, for one, goes in the opposite direction, tying the "you" to a set of defined physical circumstances, and uses this to establish it as a unique character distinct from 'me'—but as not to make this too lengthy, I believe the gist is coming through:
Second person narration can (and does) play with oscillating meaning of "you", but in order to succeed, it has to provide the reader with clear means of extracting himself from the role of addressee. The mistake behind the unsuccessful stories (the usual sins of bad or lazy writing notwithstanding) could be the assumption that this somehow happens by itself, to which I can only say: it doesn't.
As one last thought, notice that I kept talking of "second person" instead of "I/you", and I did so for a reason. The reason is that I'm still not convinced that I/you, outside of the usual exceptions (e.g. letters), could be made to work.
A look at the two examples you provided reveals that neither features an "I". We can consider an "I" to be implicit behind the narrative voice, just like in third person narration, but "I" is not present as a character in the story and does not interact with "you" within the parameters of the story.
Perhaps this is a coincidence and other examples could be found to prove me wrong, but I'm wondering if putting "I" and "you" in the same context doesn't constitute automatic reader entrapment and the final limit of suspense of disbelief.
Thank you once again for the thoughts.
Best,
Verdad
I agree with you that lack of plot and characterization, as well as everything else you summed up under "lazy writing", lie at root of most second person failures, but as you pointed out, these problems are neither exclusive nor inherent to second person narration.
We could say, perhaps, that they're its usual correlates, due to inexperienced writers' belief that second person provides an instant way around characterization (and hence their love for this narrative person), but if we want to discuss problems intrinsic to second person, I believe we're back to allowing a degree of reader's displacement.
The classification of "you" you proposed strikes me as a useful idea, but it should be pointed out that taking it too literally could be deceiving, as it obscures the intrinsically ambiguous nature of "you".
Rather than saying that there are several types of second person narratives based on the identity of "you", I think we're groping for something like several modes of relating to "you", which can coexist in a single story and sometimes even in a single sentence.
While we can, for example, decide upon reading a story that the overall "you" is a distinct character—narrator's lover, as in your number 3, is but one possibility—the very choice of second person reminds that "you" could also signify "one" (i.e. every-one), as well as you in particular. The reading process thus inevitably includes continuous questioning and redefining of "you's" boundaries, a layered-ness and mutability particular to second person, which we're disregarding if we categorize solely on the basis of final destination.
The question remains, however, of how to make this particularity work for better rather than for worse, and the answer I'm finding in the successful examples confirms my intuition about reader entrapment.
Taking a look at the opening of Italo Calvino's classic, we can observe that Calvino goes for the boldest possibility of all and addresses the reader in the most direct of ways. He speaks, indeed, to a person who's just bought his book and is cracking it open. We can also observe, though, that despite this bold move, Calvino never entraps the reader, or, to put it in terms of dialogue with the reader I mentioned in my previous post, he never gives the reader a reason to disagree.
The way he achieves this is through listing a number of situations that could apply to "you", thus allowing the reader to slip in and out of the skin of addressee. Once a number of possible/theoretical "you's" has been created, the statements that aren't true for one are easily accepted as true for others.
It's important to note, though, that the 'trick' Calvino employs isn't the only way of avoiding entrapment—Hawthorne's example, for one, goes in the opposite direction, tying the "you" to a set of defined physical circumstances, and uses this to establish it as a unique character distinct from 'me'—but as not to make this too lengthy, I believe the gist is coming through:
Second person narration can (and does) play with oscillating meaning of "you", but in order to succeed, it has to provide the reader with clear means of extracting himself from the role of addressee. The mistake behind the unsuccessful stories (the usual sins of bad or lazy writing notwithstanding) could be the assumption that this somehow happens by itself, to which I can only say: it doesn't.
As one last thought, notice that I kept talking of "second person" instead of "I/you", and I did so for a reason. The reason is that I'm still not convinced that I/you, outside of the usual exceptions (e.g. letters), could be made to work.
A look at the two examples you provided reveals that neither features an "I". We can consider an "I" to be implicit behind the narrative voice, just like in third person narration, but "I" is not present as a character in the story and does not interact with "you" within the parameters of the story.
Perhaps this is a coincidence and other examples could be found to prove me wrong, but I'm wondering if putting "I" and "you" in the same context doesn't constitute automatic reader entrapment and the final limit of suspense of disbelief.
Thank you once again for the thoughts.
Best,
Verdad
G
Guest
Guest
Pure - sorry it took so long to get back to this.
I appreciate the time you took with my story - I'm afraid I can't contribute much to the discussion, being rather unlearned/uneducated about the finer points of the English language.
It's why I offered my work up, actually - everyone's pointed out a few things that I really could change. Looking at it now, I realize how awful this is. *grin* Perhaps not awful in the "I cummed real gud-like" sense, but technically.
Thank you for the compliment, Penelope.
I actually only hang around the AH so that maybe sum of yer smarts rubs off.
I appreciate the time you took with my story - I'm afraid I can't contribute much to the discussion, being rather unlearned/uneducated about the finer points of the English language.
It's why I offered my work up, actually - everyone's pointed out a few things that I really could change. Looking at it now, I realize how awful this is. *grin* Perhaps not awful in the "I cummed real gud-like" sense, but technically.
Thank you for the compliment, Penelope.
I actually only hang around the AH so that maybe sum of yer smarts rubs off.
G
Guest
Guest
OMG - I'm a GB baby - hurt feelings? *Grin*Pure said:
Sorry -you know - life and all that. I will reread.
G
Guest
Guest
I do very much like your second edit. Why?
Ugh - I don't know, it's just better. The writing is smoother.
I can't see how you've changed/expanded much IRT to the thoughts and feelings of either character, which is what I'm thinking most people are feeling is lacking with the first person?
Ugh - I don't know, it's just better. The writing is smoother.
I can't see how you've changed/expanded much IRT to the thoughts and feelings of either character, which is what I'm thinking most people are feeling is lacking with the first person?
Pure
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an i-you story; note to baby g
in perusing the work of alice sheldon, an author recommended to me by verdad, i came across this little gem,
"love is the plan, the plan is death
http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/tiptree/tiptree1.html
the story is viewed as rather successful; how did the author handle the problems of i-you?
---
hi babygrrl,
you are right that i did not add much from the minds of the characters; that was because i wasn't commissioned to do a complete re write and amplification. i just wanted to explore the results of a simple shift that stayed close to the original. as a number of posters have said, the essential problem of "i" writing and 'i-you' writing in particular is the lack of fleshing out; that seemed like a big, and possibly unwelcome (by you) undertaking.
thanks for your contribution!
in perusing the work of alice sheldon, an author recommended to me by verdad, i came across this little gem,
"love is the plan, the plan is death
http://www.scifi.com/scifiction/classics/classics_archive/tiptree/tiptree1.html
the story is viewed as rather successful; how did the author handle the problems of i-you?
---
hi babygrrl,
you are right that i did not add much from the minds of the characters; that was because i wasn't commissioned to do a complete re write and amplification. i just wanted to explore the results of a simple shift that stayed close to the original. as a number of posters have said, the essential problem of "i" writing and 'i-you' writing in particular is the lack of fleshing out; that seemed like a big, and possibly unwelcome (by you) undertaking.
thanks for your contribution!
manyeyedhydra
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Hi, don't know if this appropriate, but here's something I put up recently that attempts to skirt around the I / you problem (It's from the erotic horror section with appropriate warnings of weirdness).
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=335457
Technically it's third person, but much of the story is narrated by the old man in first person to 'you' the audience. There were occasions where I was very tempted to use an explicit "you", but I don't like that as it seems awkward.
If I'd included a 'you see the old man fidget,' or something like that the story would be much worse I think. The target audience the man is telling the story to is clearly male, but the way I've left it the audience for the tale can be either the reader themselves or an unspecified character listening to the man's tale.
I think this gets around problems like the "you wrap your lips around my cock" example someone raised earlier, but it's still a little cumbersome.
I hope this was a kind of example you were looking for, although it always feels a little icky to pull out my own work as an example rather than someone else's.
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=335457
Technically it's third person, but much of the story is narrated by the old man in first person to 'you' the audience. There were occasions where I was very tempted to use an explicit "you", but I don't like that as it seems awkward.
If I'd included a 'you see the old man fidget,' or something like that the story would be much worse I think. The target audience the man is telling the story to is clearly male, but the way I've left it the audience for the tale can be either the reader themselves or an unspecified character listening to the man's tale.
I think this gets around problems like the "you wrap your lips around my cock" example someone raised earlier, but it's still a little cumbersome.
I hope this was a kind of example you were looking for, although it always feels a little icky to pull out my own work as an example rather than someone else's.
Bunnymaster
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I beg to differ
The only story I've submitted (to date) is written in the 2nd person.
I know I could have notched a higher numerical score had I written in the first or third person, because that's what people "are used to reading".
I wrote in the 2nd person for the shear challenge and the uniqueness of the voice.
You could even argue that there is (if you want to get deep into literary conceits) no 2nd person voice, writing that way implies the first person voice because they (the I voice) are the one using the term "you".
Wrap your brain around that concept if you can (admittedly it is convoluted, but if you pursue the notion you'll see that it has validity).
Because of the H rating system (hey I want my stories read) my next submission has been written in the 3rd person.
elfin_odalisque said:
The only story I've submitted (to date) is written in the 2nd person.
I know I could have notched a higher numerical score had I written in the first or third person, because that's what people "are used to reading".
I wrote in the 2nd person for the shear challenge and the uniqueness of the voice.
You could even argue that there is (if you want to get deep into literary conceits) no 2nd person voice, writing that way implies the first person voice because they (the I voice) are the one using the term "you".
Wrap your brain around that concept if you can (admittedly it is convoluted, but if you pursue the notion you'll see that it has validity).
Because of the H rating system (hey I want my stories read) my next submission has been written in the 3rd person.
Bunnymaster
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More thoughts about food, buildings and the 2nd person
Penelope Street said:
Softouch911
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As my sig continues to insist, I'm in the process of noveling -- now on 4th draft and going slower than I'd like because I surprised myself: I'd written six chapters in first person, and six althernating in third person from another character's pov with the idea that the third person would keep the one character more "distant" and the reader's feelings about the first person would be more "intimate."
It turned out just the opposite, so now I'm rewriting the six in first person to put them into third. I'll keep them separate with diction, syntax, and distance. Seems to be working so far, according to my critic readers. Should be more publishable, too.
I've a lot of experience w/first person and this is the first time I've had that happen.
Best, ST
It turned out just the opposite, so now I'm rewriting the six in first person to put them into third. I'll keep them separate with diction, syntax, and distance. Seems to be working so far, according to my critic readers. Should be more publishable, too.
I've a lot of experience w/first person and this is the first time I've had that happen.
Best, ST
Penelope Street
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manyeyedhydra said:
If either of you, or anyone else for that matter, desires to have their first, second, third, or any other-person story featured for discussion, just say so here:Bunnymaster said:
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?p=24440800#post24440800
Jenny_Jackson
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The problem with first person in my view is this -
I saw her coming toward me. I waved and said, "xxxxxxx."
She smiled and told me, "xxxxxxx."
I....
And on and on ad nausium.
"She" doesn't have a name. You can never really identify with the character "She". In the end, it's just boring repeats of the same bullshit.
There are good stories out there, there are great novels out there, both writen in first person. It's hard to write, but it can be done. I know I'm not good enough, few are.
I saw her coming toward me. I waved and said, "xxxxxxx."
She smiled and told me, "xxxxxxx."
I....
And on and on ad nausium.
"She" doesn't have a name. You can never really identify with the character "She". In the end, it's just boring repeats of the same bullshit.
There are good stories out there, there are great novels out there, both writen in first person. It's hard to write, but it can be done. I know I'm not good enough, few are.
FallingToFly
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Happenstance seems to work well, but it's sort of a stream of consciousness I/you story. It's written exactly as it came into my head- one long, continuous roll from beginning on. There are actually three more pages of it still on my hard drive.
Softouch911
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Jenny_Jackson said:
I can't say a thing about whether you're good enough, but I surely concur with the rest. I suspect the fact you understand the difficulty would make it so that you stand a better chance of success, actually. The reason, imo, so many stories end up with the trudging metronome you describe is because the writer thought it would be as simple as saying 'I think ..."
Actually, it's more like walking into a crowded room with blinders on and tough to find your way. Takes a lot of extra effort.
ST
Pure
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first person,
i agree it's not common in "great literature", but neither is it rare.
as to erotica: looking in current collections, i've found about one third are first person.
my guess is that this is about double what you finds in 'fine literature' at large.
i disagree with one point of jenny, below; i see no reason to limit 'first person' to nameless others. I see no problem with "I looked into the barroom and saw her. Jane, as I learned her name was, turned out to be a delightful companion."
====
jenny said,
The problem with first person in my view is this -
I saw her coming toward me. I waved and said, "xxxxxxx."
She smiled and told me, "xxxxxxx."
I....
And on and on ad nausium.
"She" doesn't have a name. You can never really identify with the character "She". In the end, it's just boring repeats of the same bullshit.
There are good stories out there, there are great novels out there, both writen in first person. It's hard to write, but it can be done. I know I'm not good enough, few are.
i agree it's not common in "great literature", but neither is it rare.
as to erotica: looking in current collections, i've found about one third are first person.
my guess is that this is about double what you finds in 'fine literature' at large.
i disagree with one point of jenny, below; i see no reason to limit 'first person' to nameless others. I see no problem with "I looked into the barroom and saw her. Jane, as I learned her name was, turned out to be a delightful companion."
====
jenny said,
The problem with first person in my view is this -
I saw her coming toward me. I waved and said, "xxxxxxx."
She smiled and told me, "xxxxxxx."
I....
And on and on ad nausium.
"She" doesn't have a name. You can never really identify with the character "She". In the end, it's just boring repeats of the same bullshit.
There are good stories out there, there are great novels out there, both writen in first person. It's hard to write, but it can be done. I know I'm not good enough, few are.
Rob_mDear
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Moby Dick
First... Moby Dick is written in the first person. It's doable. It's no more or less difficult than third person to a decent writer, I think. A lot of people don't attempt third person, or fail at it, because they can't maintain the concept of point of view. They can only write third person from an omniscient point of view, or from only one character's point of view, and that is often too flat.
Of course, in Moby Dick, Ishmael, the "I", is also a narrator, telling the story as well as being a participant. So in that sense, first person is third person, especially if all of the action doesn't involve the narrator. It's just a handicap for the author, because the narrator isn't allowed to get into the heads of the other characters, or to relay events at which the narrating character isn't present.
With that said, obviously each method requires different techniques, but the end results have to be the same, and the components are the same. One still needs characters, dialogue, action, exposition, mystery, conflict, tension and all the rest.
I think the real problem here, and it's not with erotica, but rather the nature of a site like literotica, is that many would be writers aren't writing stories, they're simply espousing their own fantasies.
I despise first person or second person stories, particularly present tense, on this site, because they always come off as simply one person's fantasy written down. A good author could take any one of these, leave it in the first person, but flesh it out and make a real story out of it. Some of them even are already good stories, but the pervasive use of that approach makes them all seem revolting.
With that said, I know of at least one piece, by an author who refuses to publish it, that is wonderfully well written and erotic, but even she agrees that the piece itself lies somewhere in a neverland between poetry and story, being a bit of both and clearly neither.
First... Moby Dick is written in the first person. It's doable. It's no more or less difficult than third person to a decent writer, I think. A lot of people don't attempt third person, or fail at it, because they can't maintain the concept of point of view. They can only write third person from an omniscient point of view, or from only one character's point of view, and that is often too flat.
Of course, in Moby Dick, Ishmael, the "I", is also a narrator, telling the story as well as being a participant. So in that sense, first person is third person, especially if all of the action doesn't involve the narrator. It's just a handicap for the author, because the narrator isn't allowed to get into the heads of the other characters, or to relay events at which the narrating character isn't present.
With that said, obviously each method requires different techniques, but the end results have to be the same, and the components are the same. One still needs characters, dialogue, action, exposition, mystery, conflict, tension and all the rest.
I think the real problem here, and it's not with erotica, but rather the nature of a site like literotica, is that many would be writers aren't writing stories, they're simply espousing their own fantasies.
I despise first person or second person stories, particularly present tense, on this site, because they always come off as simply one person's fantasy written down. A good author could take any one of these, leave it in the first person, but flesh it out and make a real story out of it. Some of them even are already good stories, but the pervasive use of that approach makes them all seem revolting.
With that said, I know of at least one piece, by an author who refuses to publish it, that is wonderfully well written and erotic, but even she agrees that the piece itself lies somewhere in a neverland between poetry and story, being a bit of both and clearly neither.
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