I'm voting Republican

[Misty_Morning]

No. I believe that the party you belong to is war mongering and in bed with homophobes and anti-abortionists. And that they want to put in president after president who are war-mongering, homophobic anti-abortionists--and who want to do away with science too. Isn't that what they've got in the White House now? A President who doesn't believe in evolution?

In short, you can righteous tell me not to put you into a box...but truth is, I'm not putting you in a box. I'm putting your political party into a box. It's a box they've built around themselves with their associations, how their majority has voted, their election tactics, and the platforms that their representatives have maintained.

If you, personally, are not like that, hooray. But you're telling me that you're a card-carrying, money donating member of a party that has put someone into the White House that is all that. And yet you're preaching to me that I shouldn't put you in the same box?

I'd quit being a democrat instantly if they put anyone in the White House who didn't believe in Evolution, let along did any of the other things Bush had done in his first four years. So, forgive me if I honestly don't see how it is that you can say, "Don't blame me!" Even if you didn't vote for Bush, you've kept him and his supporters in power for 8 years. So how it is that your hands are clean?

Do take up T999's offer of marriage. That's to Republican scare tactics bringing out the homophobia, it's doubtful that either party is going to admit that they approve of gay marriage.

Shhhh...come sit and watch the fireworks with me honey.


*pulls up a lawn chair and pops a beer for the lovely 3113*

 

[SweetPrettyAss]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3113
No. I believe that the party you belong to is war mongering and in bed with homophobes and anti-abortionists. And that they want to put in president after president who are war-mongering, homophobic anti-abortionists--and who want to do away with science too. Isn't that what they've got in the White House now? A President who doesn't believe in evolution?

In short, you can righteous tell me not to put you into a box...but truth is, I'm not putting you in a box. I'm putting your political party into a box. It's a box they've built around themselves with their associations, how their majority has voted, their election tactics, and the platforms that their representatives have maintained.

If you, personally, are not like that, hooray. But you're telling me that you're a card-carrying, money donating member of a party that has put someone into the White House that is all that. And yet you're preaching to me that I shouldn't put you in the same box?

I'd quit being a democrat instantly if they put anyone in the White House who didn't believe in Evolution, let along did any of the other things Bush had done in his first four years. So, forgive me if I honestly don't see how it is that you can say, "Don't blame me!" Even if you didn't vote for Bush, you've kept him and his supporters in power for 8 years. So how it is that your hands are clean?

Do take up T999's offer of marriage. That's to Republican scare tactics bringing out the homophobia, it's doubtful that either party is going to admit that they approve of gay marriage.

Shhhh...come sit and watch the fireworks with me honey.


*pulls up a lawn chair and pops a beer for the lovely 3113*

You're right. The show is getting better all the time.

I wonder why Amicus hasn't put in an appearance yet, unless he's here as an alt.

 

[TE999]

Do take up T999's offer of marriage. Thanks to Republican scare tactics bringing out the homophobia, it's doubtful that either party is going to admit that they approve of gay marriage.

The Republicans won't mind if we marry, I'm a heterosexual male.

It's an affectionate joke between Misty and I, 3. Lighten up for chrissake.

Here's a flash for you; there are homophobes across the political spectrum, not just the Repubs. Many a God-Fearing bible-thumping Democrat thinks gayness is an original sin. Go south of the Mason-Dixon line sometime and see for yourself.

Is it any wonder I'm a Libertarian with all this shit going on?

 

[Msub33]

Oh boy, I see a few people around her have some BDS for sure.

 

[Misty_Morning]

No. I believe that the party you belong to is war mongering and in bed with homophobes and anti-abortionists. And that they want to put in president after president who are war-mongering, homophobic anti-abortionists--and who want to do away with science too. Isn't that what they've got in the White House now? A President who doesn't believe in evolution?

In short, you can righteous tell me not to put you into a box...but truth is, I'm not putting you in a box. I'm putting your political party into a box. It's a box they've built around themselves with their associations, how their majority has voted, their election tactics, and the platforms that their representatives have maintained.

Oh, and the man they put in the White House for two terms.

If you, personally, are not like that, hooray. But you're telling me that you're a card-carrying, money donating member of a party that has put someone into the White House that is all that. And yet you're preaching to me that I shouldn't put you in the same box?

I'd quit being a democrat instantly if they put anyone in the White House who didn't believe in Evolution, let alone did any of the other things Bush had done in his first four years. So, forgive me if I honestly don't see how it is that you can say, "Don't blame me!" Even if you didn't vote for Bush, you've kept him and his supporters in power for 8 years. So how it is that your hands are clean?

Do take up T999's offer of marriage. Thanks to Republican scare tactics bringing out the homophobia, it's doubtful that either party is going to admit that they approve of gay marriage.

3113...you've been listening to too much "left-wing propaganda" and hatred as well as some right wing bullshit.

Why do you use the term "card-carrying, money donating member of a party"?

Do you also think that I picket abortion clinics and want to burn books that don't agree with the Christian philsophy just because I am republican?

News for you...I do not consider myself Christian. Nor do I agree with my party's stance on Gay marriage. BUT then again, the Democrats have not embraced Gay marriage either.

Why must you attack those that do not share your opinions?

Truth be told, we share more beliefs than you may be willing to admit.

I am not a member of the closed minded minority that has taken over my party....I am a member of the "silent majority" (LOL) that wishes to reclaim my party. And by silent majority I mean those of us that have allowed a few loud mouth narrow minded folks to become the mouth pieces of our party.

Stop it. Stop the hatred. Take a step. Try to work it out. Or are you so set in your ways that could never consider talking with folks on the other side?

Wait a minute....aren't we all supposed to be on the same side?


You choose.


Folks on opposite sides...or folks with different opinions.

 

[cloudy]

So you are trying to defend the Dakota, after they killed over 800 white settlers and displaced over 40,000? And you are mad because Lincoln decided to defend his people?

You are digressing, however. This debate is about Republicans and Democrats.

Why is it that when white people kill Indians, it's a "battle" but when Indians kill white folks, it's a "massacre"?

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, asshole. Let's talk about the smallpox-infected blankets, or the fact that you fucking cowards preferred to attack settlements containing only women, children or elderly. Or, I know...let's talk about knifing people like Crazy Horse in the back when they turn themselves in.

Here's a newsflash for you, idiot: we were here first.

 

[Msub33]

Why is it that when white people kill Indians, it's a "battle" but when Indians kill white folks, it's a "massacre"?

Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, asshole. Let's talk about the smallpox-infected blankets, or the fact that you fucking cowards preferred to attack settlements containing only women, children or elderly. Or, I know...let's talk about knifing people like Crazy Horse in the back when they turn themselves in.

Here's a newsflash for you, idiot: we were here first.

I may not be full blooded, but I my great great grandparents were full blooded Choctaw and Cherokee. The truth is that the disappearance of most populations is generally attributed to assimilation (such as the Vikings) not genocide. Granted, the horrors that beset the natives were absolutely horrible, but the horrors the natives sent on people that were born her and had no choice was equally horrible.

You blame Lincoln for this, but most the trail of tears and most of the Native Genocide happened under the watch of Jackson and the Democratic party...

 

[cloudy]

I may not be full blooded, but I my great great grandparents were full blooded Choctaw and Cherokee. The truth is that the disappearance of most populations is generally attributed to assimilation (such as the Vikings) not genocide. Granted, the horrors that beset the natives were absolutely horrible, but the horrors the natives sent on people that were born her and had no choice was equally horrible.

You blame Lincoln for this, but most the trail of tears and most of the Native Genocide happened under the watch of Jackson and the Democratic party...

It wasn't genocide? What would you call it, then?

Don't patronize me; you're not that good at it. I probably know a whole helluva lot more about it than you do.

Let me guess...your great-grandmother was a Cherokee "princess", right?

(someone save me from idiots and wannabes....)

 

[Belegon]

You know, maybe it's good that I'm not gonna be able to see Lit for a few days.

It'll keep me from wading into bullshit like this.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/rpg012.gif


Let the fireworks begin...

 

[Msub33]

It wasn't genocide? What would you call it, then?

Don't patronize me; you're not that good at it. I probably know a whole helluva lot more about it than you do.

Let me guess...your great-grandmother was a Cherokee "princess", right?

(someone save me from idiots and wannabes....)

Oh come on. Small pox on blankets? Considering 90 to 95% of the Native population was wiped out through disease, it is hard to say that Whites came over here specifically to kill natives.

And besides, you brush off the fact that the natives, on just about nearly every occasion, were the ones who initiated the violence in the first place. Like earlier, you go all flustered about the 38 hangings... but that was only in response to the Sioux driving out 40,000 settlers and killing 800. Likewise, you continue to become indignant about the "small pox blanket," which probably never happened considering European Germ theory limited disease transfer to "bad air," was only as a result of the Sioux ATTACKING British soldiers. The only other incident I can think of the Mandan incident which Ward Churchill, the conspiracy theorist himself, basically fabricated.

I mean.. the American army was handing out BLANKETS to the Natives for crying out loud- but only Churchill fans could twist that into being an act of genocide right?

I have to ask, in front of all of the people of literotica, do you believe that the people who died on September 11th were, as Churchill put it, "little Eichmanns?"

 

[Msub33]

It wasn't genocide? What would you call it, then?

Don't patronize me; you're not that good at it. I probably know a whole helluva lot more about it than you do.

Let me guess...your great-grandmother was a Cherokee "princess", right?

(someone save me from idiots and wannabes....)

Idiots and wannabes?

This coming from someone who spews the same rhetoric as Ward Churchill, who claimed he was part native american, but lied?

Please, if there is anything that history shows, it is that nationalism almost goes hand in hand with "romanticism" i.e. imaginary super race and reichs, or even how the white man created AIDS to wipe out the black population. All of this is generally brought about first by A) an Inferiority Complex. The Germans were belittled by the Italians for the longest time for being uncivilized barbarians, and so the Germans overcompensated by created an entire history fabricated out of fantasy land. All for what purpose?

Why Unity of course...

 

[cloudy]

Oh come on. Small pox on blankets? Considering 90 to 95% of the Native population was wiped out through disease, it is hard to say that Whites came over here specifically to kill natives.

And besides, you brush off the fact that the natives, on just about nearly every occasion, were the ones who initiated the violence in the first place. Like earlier, you go all flustered about the 38 hangings... but that was only in response to the Sioux driving out 40,000 settlers and killing 800. Likewise, you continue to become indignant about the "small pox blanket," which probably never happened considering European Germ theory limited disease transfer to "bad air," was only as a result of the Sioux ATTACKING British soldiers. The only other incident I can think of the Mandan incident which Ward Churchill, the conspiracy theorist himself, basically fabricated.

I mean.. the American army was handing out BLANKETS to the Natives for crying out loud- but only Churchill fans could twist that into being an act of genocide right?

Bet you believe the holocaust never happened, either.

I have to ask, in front of all of the people of literotica, do you believe that the people who died on September 11th were, as Churchill put it, "little Eichmanns?"

WTF does this have to do with anything?

I had a family member die there. On ignore you go, with the rest of the ijits. Life's too short.

 

[Msub33]

Bet you believe the holocaust never happened, either.



WTF does this have to do with anything?

I had a family member die there, thankyouverymuch. On ignore you go, with the rest of the ijits.

Ahhhh, so you respond by effectively calling me a nazi, as I basically predicted you would. Of course the holocaust happened- it is why I am such a staunch defender of Israel.

Speaking of romantic nationalism, did you know that "Palestine" is a myth? 90% of Palestine actually is in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. The old Ottomon rulers before World War 1 remarked how the majority of the population in Jerusalem was Jewish because the surrounding land was dessert and useless. However, when the all of these different states were formed after WW2 FROM "Palestine," the Jews used technology to rebuild the land into something useful... which is when Arabs all across the land started to flock to Jerusalem. Eventually they created this elaborate hoax to fool the ignorant, when in reality, the Arabic Muslim who wants to erradicate the Jew is heir to the Nazis that tried to get them to fight the British (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler to work out agreements).

 

[rgraham666]

Who said I was trying to be non-divisive?

Unity is a romantic concoction of collective socialists. I pride myself on my opinions- or perhaps you believe I should... fall in line?

And perhaps you believe I should.

Ain't gonna happen.

You wanna know the place where my individuality was most threatened? In the business world. Yes, that wonderful world of 'free market enterprise' you people venerate. Although it's populated mostly by people who care not a jot for the free market not for enterprise very much.

Endless litanies of "Why don't you act properly? Why don't dress properly? Why don't you think properly?" And never, ever any restraint over using the power my employment with them gave them to beat me into line.

Hypocrite.

 

[DesertPirate]

Oh.


*Takes a seat to watch the fireworks.*

I was going to make popcorn

 

[colddiesel]

On Being Wrong

Speaking of romantic nationalism, did you know that "Palestine" is a myth? 90% of Palestine actually is in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt. The old Ottomon rulers before World War 1 remarked how the majority of the population in Jerusalem was Jewish because the surrounding land was dessert and useless. However, when the all of these different states were formed after WW2 FROM "Palestine," the Jews used technology to rebuild the land into something useful... which is when Arabs all across the land started to flock to Jerusalem. Eventually they created this elaborate hoax to fool the ignorant, when in reality, the Arabic Muslim who wants to erradicate the Jew is heir to the Nazis that tried to get them to fight the British (Grand Mufti of Jerusalem met with Hitler to work out agreements).

Almost every 'fact' you cite in this paragraph is demonstrably and epically wrong. You are either monumentally ignorant, or a complete fuckwit - but surely not both!!

 

[Boxlicker101]

Oh come on. Small pox on blankets? Considering 90 to 95% of the Native population was wiped out through disease, it is hard to say that Whites came over here specifically to kill natives.

And besides, you brush off the fact that the natives, on just about nearly every occasion, were the ones who initiated the violence in the first place. Like earlier, you go all flustered about the 38 hangings... but that was only in response to the Sioux driving out 40,000 settlers and killing 800. Likewise, you continue to become indignant about the "small pox blanket," which probably never happened considering European Germ theory limited disease transfer to "bad air," was only as a result of the Sioux ATTACKING British soldiers. The only other incident I can think of the Mandan incident which Ward Churchill, the conspiracy theorist himself, basically fabricated.

I mean.. the American army was handing out BLANKETS to the Natives for crying out loud- but only Churchill fans could twist that into being an act of genocide right?

I have to ask, in front of all of the people of literotica, do you believe that the people who died on September 11th were, as Churchill put it, "little Eichmanns?"

You seem to be confusing The Dark Ages with the 18th Century. Edward Jenner, a British physician had isolated smallpox and was producing vaccines in the 18th Century. See this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner

If they knew this much about Smallpox, the British certainly knew enough to be able to use it as a weapon. There is considerable documentation that they did use it in what is known in the US as "The French and Indian War" and, if it was that well known then, the American military could have used it against the Plains Indians 100 years later. Google "Blankets infected with Smallpox" for the documentation I mentioned.

 

[rengadeirishman]

Oh come on. Small pox on blankets? Considering 90 to 95% of the Native population was wiped out through disease, it is hard to say that Whites came over here specifically to kill natives.

And besides, you brush off the fact that the natives, on just about nearly every occasion, were the ones who initiated the violence in the first place. Like earlier, you go all flustered about the 38 hangings... but that was only in response to the Sioux driving out 40,000 settlers and killing 800. Likewise, you continue to become indignant about the "small pox blanket," which probably never happened considering European Germ theory limited disease transfer to "bad air," was only as a result of the Sioux ATTACKING British soldiers. The only other incident I can think of the Mandan incident which Ward Churchill, the conspiracy theorist himself, basically fabricated.

I mean.. the American army was handing out BLANKETS to the Natives for crying out loud- but only Churchill fans could twist that into being an act of genocide right?

I have to ask, in front of all of the people of literotica, do you believe that the people who died on September 11th were, as Churchill put it, "little Eichmanns?"

This is ridiculous. I am not even native, but as part of a race that got the serious shaft from WASPs that had no right, (though not nearly so bad as the native americans) Let me ask you this. if i were to show up in your backyard and start building a settlement and edging you out, even if i did not attack you, are you telling me that you wouldnt be justified in attacking me? Of course the Indians attacked, a bunch of foreigners showed up and started defiling their land without so much as a by your leave. Same reason my own Irish people fought the english over and over, interestingly enough the WASPs tried to kill my people off too, thankfully they failed, and had the audacity to call people of my own family murderers for striking back.

as for cloudys point about battles and massacres, look up the battle of wounded knee, that was nothing if not a pure massacre, but as it was american soldiers doing the killing it goes down in history as a battle.

 

[Msub33]

And perhaps you believe I should.

Ain't gonna happen.

You wanna know the place where my individuality was most threatened? In the business world. Yes, that wonderful world of 'free market enterprise' you people venerate. Although it's populated mostly by people who care not a jot for the free market not for enterprise very much.

Endless litanies of "Why don't you act properly? Why don't dress properly? Why don't you think properly?" And never, ever any restraint over using the power my employment with them gave them to beat me into line.

Hypocrite.

That is pretty much false considering the majority of the business in this country is small business. If you owned your own business, you could do whatever the hell you wanted 24/7 and run your store the way you wanted. But, let me entertain your idea for a moment. What is happening in today's job market? The computer revolution has basically changed the way people are doing business now. You don't need to come to work with a tie on anymore. Here is a good article that basically debunks your entire argument:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/04/neckwear-trend-goodbye-to-the-tie/

The free market enables choice and feedback, and as a result, businesses are changing their exterior to catch up with the culture. You still have to come to work on time and do your job... but other than that, you are pretty much free to express yourself the way you want to without robbing another person of their liberty or property...

 

[oggbashan]

I don't know who that is. I am a new guy...

I take it so seriously because the 20th century basically discredited socialism and communism as it vanquished over 100 million people, and yet people in this country (Stalin called them "useful idiots") still fight for it, paradoxically, as if it is some sort of Lockean natural right.

Don't get me wrong, Republicans have their faults and failings, but the cumulative effects of their policy decisions from Lincoln to Reagan have led this country down a much better path.

As far as I am aware no nation state has ever practised socialism or communism. Stalin certainly didn't practise communism. The Germans were ruled by the National Socialist Democratic and Workers Party (NSDAP abbreviated to NAZI) but were not Socialist, nor Democratic, nor for the Workers nor for anyone except the self-interests of their leaders.

Whether socialism or communism would actually work I doubt, but the 20th Century didn't discredit them because they haven't been tried. What were vanquished were totalitarian regimes which were very different.

What depresses me is that socialism and communism are used (mainly in the US) as labels for governmental systems which were and are neither. Some of the ideals expressed by socialists are admirable. They may not be practical and may have limited value but they were honestly expressed.

All three main parties in the UK and the other parties in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales support state interventions that even most US democrats might balk at, but those policies are considered reasonable here. Politics are not really translatable across the Atlantic.

Og

 

[Msub33]

You seem to be confusing The Dark Ages with the 18th Century. Edward Jenner, a British physician had isolated smallpox and was producing vaccines in the 18th Century. See this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Jenner

If they knew this much about Smallpox, the British certainly knew enough to be able to use it as a weapon. There is considerable documentation that they did use it in what is known in the US as "The French and Indian War" and, if it was that well known then, the American military could have used it against the Plains Indians 100 years later. Google "Blankets infected with Smallpox" for the documentation I mentioned.

My point still stand that the majority of the native population was wiped out before Jenner made his discoveries, and even then, the paradigm after Jenner's discoveries would probably take several decades to change. The notion that the Britsh or American soldiers gave small pox laced blankets to natives is completely unfounded- there is absolutely no evidence for it whatsoever.

To further illustrate my points about the paradigm still remaining the same, George Washington was bled to death in 1799. This methodology was based on the old medieval paradigm of "fluid imbalance." This of course prefaced the 19th century... it is highly unlikely much changed over the next few decades.

 

[Boxlicker101]

My point still stand that the majority of the native population was wiped out before Jenner made his discoveries, and even then, the paradigm after Jenner's discoveries would probably take several decades to change. The notion that the Britsh or American soldiers gave small pox laced blankets to natives is completely unfounded- there is absolutely no evidence for it whatsoever.

To further illustrate my points about the paradigm still remaining the same, George Washington was bled to death in 1799. This methodology was based on the old medieval paradigm of "fluid imbalance." This of course prefaced the 19th century... it is highly unlikely much changed over the next few decades.

There is this evidence to show that it was certainly considered: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_066.html

There is also evidence that it was done.

As to whether or not this technique was used against Native Americans by US soldiers in the 19th Century, that is another question. However, if it was not used, it was not because of lack of knowledge. Personally, I believe it was used against "the savages" because it would have been efficacious. If the soldiers had been vaccinated, which is likely, they could have planted the blankets and other things with litle risk to themselves.

 

[Belegon]

against my own better judgment, I started looking into the whole smallpox blanket thing...

The only seemingly credible example of this took place as a conversation of possibilities between British commanders in the French & Indian War, before the existence of the United States.

The only attempt ever made to vaccinate was a disaster for both the Native Americans and the whites.

Disease, of which smallpox was the worst, accounted for far more death and destruction than soldiers ever did. Prior to the invasion of the Europeans, there seems to be very little evidence of communicable disease among the Native Americans. By their very presence, the Europeans were deadly.

Aren't there enough inhumanities existing in that time? Why use a may or may not have happened event? There is more than enough sadness there already.

 

[Msub33]

There is this evidence to show that it was certainly considered: http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_066.html

There is also evidence that it was done.

As to whether or not this technique was used against Native Americans by US soldiers in the 19th Century, that is another question. However, if it was not used, it was not because of lack of knowledge. Personally, I believe it was used against "the savages" because it would have been efficacious. If the soldiers had been vaccinated, which is likely, they could have planted the blankets and other things with litle risk to themselves.

My point in this thread wasn't to make whitey out to be some sort of pristine infallible savior. However, the letters you speak of were written because the men in question were surrounded and about to die. The interesting thing is that the majority of the natives involved in Pontiacs rebellion weren't even remotely affected by British expansion, but rather their Prophet "Nolin" told them to rebel against the ways of the white man. The Small Pox epidemic had actually been ongoing before those letters were even written. The fact that letters exist prove only that the men wanted to survive the seige, not committ genocide on the Natives.

In any event, since we are talking about small pox and blankets, I think it is also worth noting that Ward Churchill was fired from his University position because he fabricated history, such as the Mandan event, out of thin air. Another thing he fabricated out of thin air was his supposed "native american heritage." Here is a good link:

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5642650,00.html

CU President Hank Brown had earlier recommended the dismissal. In the end, there really wasn’t much choice, Brown said.

Churchill "falsified history and fabricated history." And Churchill "did not express regret, apologize or agree to refrain from this behavior in the future," Brown said.

Some 25 faculty members on three committees had looked at the evidence against Churchill and found truth in the allegations he violated academic conduct standards, said Pat Hayes, regents’ chairwoman.

"That’s very persuasive," she said.

The natives killed white people because they didn't like them.