bridgeburner
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Marlene Dietrich
is there such a thing, as a female libertine?
- Thread starter cynter
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Black Tulip
Not so delicate flower
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Perdita,
I was wondering about that. I thought I might have misunderstood the word libertine. LOL
Libertine = Unrestrained by convention or morality.
If that is the correct description, than that certainly entails more than free sexual behavior.
I thought we were naming women who tried to mold their life to their needs instead of to the conventions of their time.
That's why I mentioned Simone de Beauvoir.
Sorry Pure, I'm in a childish mood today.
I was wondering about that. I thought I might have misunderstood the word libertine. LOL
Libertine = Unrestrained by convention or morality.
If that is the correct description, than that certainly entails more than free sexual behavior.
I thought we were naming women who tried to mold their life to their needs instead of to the conventions of their time.
That's why I mentioned Simone de Beauvoir.
Sorry Pure, I'm in a childish mood today.
G
Guest
Guest
Frankly, I don't know what definition or cultural inference any poster here is using. Cynter began by citing two infamous and stereotypical male libertines and wondered about a female equivalent. I'm merely using the common sense of the word. You extend it per a certain definition, Pure uses the google net to further spread its meaning.Black Tulip said:
It's a good topic for discussion among some, I can't do more unless taken seriously though (that's not a whinge, just how I am).
Perdita
Edited to add: I merely used BT's post as a seque; I did not mean to imply that she does not take me seriously. "Even" Pure 'seriously' takes me
at times (though too often avoids my points ).
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G
Guest
Guest
furthermore, and lastly
John Donne, the “metaphysical” poet wrote what were termed, in his day, “libertine” lyrics. There were recognized (at the time) “libertine” characters in works by Dryden, Shadwell (Thomas; English poet laureate in 17th c.) and Shakespeare. Colette wrote “The Gentle Libertine” (1909). “Lothario” is another term for a male libertine and many are strewn throughout literature.
I should have gone to the OED first. P.
libertine, n. and a. (OED SECOND EDITION, 1989)
A. n., 1. Rom. Antiq. A freedman; one manumitted from slavery; also, the son of a freedman.
1382 WYCLIF Acts vi. 9 Summe risen of the synagoge, that was clepid of Libertyns. 1533 BELLENDEN Livy IV. (1822) 315 Quhidder ane servand or ane libertine war maid consull. 1540-1 ELYOT Image Gov. 34 Libertine, that is to saie, any man of a bonde ancestour. 1601 HOLLAND Pliny I. 411 A mean commoner of Rome, descended from the race of Libertines or Slaues newly infranchised. 1631 SELDEN Titles Hon. (ed. 2) Ep. Ded., As if one could be put into the state of a Libertine, without a former seruitude! 1644 Jus Pop. 52 Who could more powerfully sway in the Palace than Eunuchs, Grooms and Libertines? 1726 AYLIFFE Parergon 24 There are some Persons forbidden to be Accusers..as Libertines against their Patrons.
b. Misused for: A freeman (of a city). rare
c1611 CHAPMAN Iliad XVI. 50 He..vsde me like a fugitiue; an Inmate in a towne, That is no citie libertine, nor capable of their gowne.
2. a. pl. The name given to certain antinomian sects of the early sixteenth century, which arose in France and elsewhere on the continent. b. Later, in wider sense: One who holds free or loose opinions about religion; a free-thinker.
1563-83 FOXE A. & M. II. 1613/1 Euen the infidels, Turkes, Iewes, Anabaptistes, and Libertines, desire felicitie as well as the Christians. 1589 Acts Privy Council (1898) XVII. 424 In those Lowe Countryes there are Sectaryes, as Annabaptystes, Lybertines, and soche lyke. 1604 R. CAWDREY Table Alph., Libertine, loose in religion, one that thinks he may doe what he listeth. 1612 T. TAYLOR Comm. Titus ii. 14 Neither wanted their Libertins in those daies, that..thought They might doe what they listed. 1646 P. BULKELEY Gospel Covt. IV. 297 The old plea of loose Libertines in the Apostles time; I have faith, saith one, and though I have no works, yet my faith will save me. 1698 NORRIS Pract. Disc. IV. 254 The Libertins, and Profane Spirits of the Age are apt to Reason, or rather Mutiny against the Ways of God. 1762 GOLDSM. Nash 48 People of all ways of thinking, even from the libertine to the methodist. 1831 BREWSTER Newton (1855) II. xviii. 163 Flamsteed never scrupled to denounce Halley as a libertine and an infidel. 1876 J. PARKER Paracl. II. xvii. 283 The intellectual libertine who denies everything that cannot be certified by the senses.
c. transf. One who follows his own inclinations or goes his own way; one who is not restricted or confined.
1599 SHAKES. Hen. V, I. i. 48 When he speakes, The Ayre, a Charter'd Libertine, is still. 1612 T. TAYLOR Comm. Titus iii. 1 Romish policie, that they might become the absolute libertines of the world..hath withdrawn the neckes of the clergie from vnder Ciuill Power. 1628 BP. HALL Serm. Chr. Liberty Rem. Wks. (1660) 27 What is this, but..to professe our selves, not Libertines, but licentiate of disorder? 1642 ROGERS Naaman 116 Those Pharisees in the Gospel..Christ himselfe was a libertine to them and their strictnesse. 1698 LISTER Journey Paris (1699) 39 Though Rubens in his History is too much a Libertine in this respect, yet there is in this very place, which we now describe, much truth in the habit of his principal Figures. 1870 DICKENS E. Drood iv, He is the chartered libertine of the place.
3. A man who is not restrained by moral law, esp. in his relations with the female sex; one who leads a dissolute, licentious life. Rarely applied to a woman.
1593 G. HARVEY Pierce's Supererog. 45 The whole brood of venereous Libertines, that knowe no reason but appetite, no Lawe but Luste. 1593 NASHE Christ's T. 29b, Twenty thousand of these dreggy lees of Libertines hiu'd vnto him in a moment. 1602 SHAKES. Ham. I. iii. 49. 1633 MASSINGER Guardian II. v, The plump Dutch Frow, the stately dame of Spain, The Roman libertine, and sprightful Tuscan. 1713 ROWE J. Shore i, That man the lawless libertine may rove, Free and unquestion'd through the wilds of love. 1750 JOHNSON Rambler No. 77 14 The giddy libertine, or drunken ravisher. 1828 SCOTT F.M. Perth xiv, Since when is it that the principal libertine has altered his morals so much? 1855 PRESCOTT Philip II (1857) 80 His life..was that of a libertine.
4. At Aberdeen University: A student who has no bursary.
B. adj. 1. Manumitted from slavery (see A. 1). rare.
1600 HOLLAND Livy XXII. i. 432 The verie Libertine or enfranchised women. 1795 J. MACKNIGHT Apost. Epistles (1820) IV. 547, 4000 of the Libertine race were transported.
2. Acknowledging no law in religion or morals; free-thinking; antinomian. Also occas. Pertaining to the sects known as ‘Libertines’.
1577 J. NORTHBROOKE Dicing (1843) 36 The doctrine of the gospell is not a libertine docrtine. 1640 BP. HALL Chr. Moder. II. x. 82 Even among the Christians themselves, what foule charges of libertine doctrine are layd upon them by false teachers! 1693 TILLOTSON Pref. to Wilkins' Nat. Relig., The pernicious doctrines of the Antinomians, and of all other libertine-enthusiasts. 1702 C. MATHER Magn. Chr. II. ii. (1852) 115 Religion..had like to have died..through a libertine and Brownistick spirit. 1708 SWIFT Sentim. Ch. Eng. Man Wks. 1755 II. I. 55 Persons of libertine and atheistical tenets. 1858 M. PATTISON Ess. (1889) II. 18 The Libertine party instantly saw the opportunity afforded of turning opinion against the pastors. 1861 TRENCH 7 Ch. Asia 84 In the Apocalypse of St. John we find these libertine errors already full blown. 1901 Expositor June 412 The libertine tendencies of Gentile Christians in Asia Minor.
3. Free or unrestrained in constitution, habit, conduct or language. Now rare or Obs.
1589 G. HARVEY Pierce's Supererog. (1593) 139 Although that same French Mirrour be..stuffed with geere homely enough, fit for a Libertine & frantique Theame; yet doth it [etc.]. 1631 T. POWELL Tom All Trades (1876) 167 A more libertine disposition. 1668 EVELYN Mem. (1857) II. 36 Amongst other libertine libels, there was..a bold petition of the poor w s to Lady Castlemaine. 1689-90 TEMPLE Ess. Poetry Wks. 1731 I. 238 There is something in the Genius of Poetry, too libertine to be confined to so many Rules. 1768-74 TUCKER Lt. Nat. (1834) II. 79 The libertine ant will choose her own settlement. 1847 EMERSON Wood Notes II. Poems 70 He is free and libertine, Pouring of his power the wine To every age, to every race.
b. Of literary composition, translation: Extremely free. Obs.
1656 COWLEY Pindar. Odes Pref., The Grammarians perhaps will not suffer this libertine way of rendring foreign Authors to be called Translation. a1683 OLDHAM Poet. Wks. Pref. (1686) 3 The Satyr and Odes of the Author..I have translated in the same libertine way. 1710 STEELE Tatler No. 172 2, I have rambled in this Libertine Manner of Writing by way of Essay. 1760 H. WALPOLE Let. to Sir D. Dalrymple 3 Feb., The transitions are as sudden as those in Pindar, but not so libertine.
4. Characterized by habitual disregard of moral law, esp. with regard to the relation of the sexes; licentious, dissolute; characteristic of or resembling a libertine.
1605 BACON Adv. Learn. II. xxv. §3. 121 The heathen Poets, when they fall upon a libertine passion, doe still expostulate with lawes and moralities, as if they were opposite and malignant to nature. 1699 BURNET 39 Art. Pref. (1700) 4 A tendency not only to Antinomianism, but to a Libertine course of life. 1762 GIBBON Misc. Wks. (1814) IV. 132 The frank libertine wit of their old stage. 1804 A. SEWARD Mem. E. Darwin 375 A band of libertine lovers..plight their promiscuous hymeneals. a1831 MACKINTOSH Rev. of 1688 Wks. 1846 II. 11 The attractions of his lively and some~what libertine conversation were among the means by which he maintained his ground with Charles II. 1886 F. HARRISON Choice of Bks. iii. 51 The Decameron..is redolent of that libertine humanism which stamps the Renascence.
John Donne, the “metaphysical” poet wrote what were termed, in his day, “libertine” lyrics. There were recognized (at the time) “libertine” characters in works by Dryden, Shadwell (Thomas; English poet laureate in 17th c.) and Shakespeare. Colette wrote “The Gentle Libertine” (1909). “Lothario” is another term for a male libertine and many are strewn throughout literature.
I should have gone to the OED first. P.
libertine, n. and a. (OED SECOND EDITION, 1989)
A. n., 1. Rom. Antiq. A freedman; one manumitted from slavery; also, the son of a freedman.
1382 WYCLIF Acts vi. 9 Summe risen of the synagoge, that was clepid of Libertyns. 1533 BELLENDEN Livy IV. (1822) 315 Quhidder ane servand or ane libertine war maid consull. 1540-1 ELYOT Image Gov. 34 Libertine, that is to saie, any man of a bonde ancestour. 1601 HOLLAND Pliny I. 411 A mean commoner of Rome, descended from the race of Libertines or Slaues newly infranchised. 1631 SELDEN Titles Hon. (ed. 2) Ep. Ded., As if one could be put into the state of a Libertine, without a former seruitude! 1644 Jus Pop. 52 Who could more powerfully sway in the Palace than Eunuchs, Grooms and Libertines? 1726 AYLIFFE Parergon 24 There are some Persons forbidden to be Accusers..as Libertines against their Patrons.
b. Misused for: A freeman (of a city). rare
c1611 CHAPMAN Iliad XVI. 50 He..vsde me like a fugitiue; an Inmate in a towne, That is no citie libertine, nor capable of their gowne.
2. a. pl. The name given to certain antinomian sects of the early sixteenth century, which arose in France and elsewhere on the continent. b. Later, in wider sense: One who holds free or loose opinions about religion; a free-thinker.
1563-83 FOXE A. & M. II. 1613/1 Euen the infidels, Turkes, Iewes, Anabaptistes, and Libertines, desire felicitie as well as the Christians. 1589 Acts Privy Council (1898) XVII. 424 In those Lowe Countryes there are Sectaryes, as Annabaptystes, Lybertines, and soche lyke. 1604 R. CAWDREY Table Alph., Libertine, loose in religion, one that thinks he may doe what he listeth. 1612 T. TAYLOR Comm. Titus ii. 14 Neither wanted their Libertins in those daies, that..thought They might doe what they listed. 1646 P. BULKELEY Gospel Covt. IV. 297 The old plea of loose Libertines in the Apostles time; I have faith, saith one, and though I have no works, yet my faith will save me. 1698 NORRIS Pract. Disc. IV. 254 The Libertins, and Profane Spirits of the Age are apt to Reason, or rather Mutiny against the Ways of God. 1762 GOLDSM. Nash 48 People of all ways of thinking, even from the libertine to the methodist. 1831 BREWSTER Newton (1855) II. xviii. 163 Flamsteed never scrupled to denounce Halley as a libertine and an infidel. 1876 J. PARKER Paracl. II. xvii. 283 The intellectual libertine who denies everything that cannot be certified by the senses.
c. transf. One who follows his own inclinations or goes his own way; one who is not restricted or confined.
1599 SHAKES. Hen. V, I. i. 48 When he speakes, The Ayre, a Charter'd Libertine, is still. 1612 T. TAYLOR Comm. Titus iii. 1 Romish policie, that they might become the absolute libertines of the world..hath withdrawn the neckes of the clergie from vnder Ciuill Power. 1628 BP. HALL Serm. Chr. Liberty Rem. Wks. (1660) 27 What is this, but..to professe our selves, not Libertines, but licentiate of disorder? 1642 ROGERS Naaman 116 Those Pharisees in the Gospel..Christ himselfe was a libertine to them and their strictnesse. 1698 LISTER Journey Paris (1699) 39 Though Rubens in his History is too much a Libertine in this respect, yet there is in this very place, which we now describe, much truth in the habit of his principal Figures. 1870 DICKENS E. Drood iv, He is the chartered libertine of the place.
3. A man who is not restrained by moral law, esp. in his relations with the female sex; one who leads a dissolute, licentious life. Rarely applied to a woman.
1593 G. HARVEY Pierce's Supererog. 45 The whole brood of venereous Libertines, that knowe no reason but appetite, no Lawe but Luste. 1593 NASHE Christ's T. 29b, Twenty thousand of these dreggy lees of Libertines hiu'd vnto him in a moment. 1602 SHAKES. Ham. I. iii. 49. 1633 MASSINGER Guardian II. v, The plump Dutch Frow, the stately dame of Spain, The Roman libertine, and sprightful Tuscan. 1713 ROWE J. Shore i, That man the lawless libertine may rove, Free and unquestion'd through the wilds of love. 1750 JOHNSON Rambler No. 77 14 The giddy libertine, or drunken ravisher. 1828 SCOTT F.M. Perth xiv, Since when is it that the principal libertine has altered his morals so much? 1855 PRESCOTT Philip II (1857) 80 His life..was that of a libertine.
4. At Aberdeen University: A student who has no bursary.
B. adj. 1. Manumitted from slavery (see A. 1). rare.
1600 HOLLAND Livy XXII. i. 432 The verie Libertine or enfranchised women. 1795 J. MACKNIGHT Apost. Epistles (1820) IV. 547, 4000 of the Libertine race were transported.
2. Acknowledging no law in religion or morals; free-thinking; antinomian. Also occas. Pertaining to the sects known as ‘Libertines’.
1577 J. NORTHBROOKE Dicing (1843) 36 The doctrine of the gospell is not a libertine docrtine. 1640 BP. HALL Chr. Moder. II. x. 82 Even among the Christians themselves, what foule charges of libertine doctrine are layd upon them by false teachers! 1693 TILLOTSON Pref. to Wilkins' Nat. Relig., The pernicious doctrines of the Antinomians, and of all other libertine-enthusiasts. 1702 C. MATHER Magn. Chr. II. ii. (1852) 115 Religion..had like to have died..through a libertine and Brownistick spirit. 1708 SWIFT Sentim. Ch. Eng. Man Wks. 1755 II. I. 55 Persons of libertine and atheistical tenets. 1858 M. PATTISON Ess. (1889) II. 18 The Libertine party instantly saw the opportunity afforded of turning opinion against the pastors. 1861 TRENCH 7 Ch. Asia 84 In the Apocalypse of St. John we find these libertine errors already full blown. 1901 Expositor June 412 The libertine tendencies of Gentile Christians in Asia Minor.
3. Free or unrestrained in constitution, habit, conduct or language. Now rare or Obs.
1589 G. HARVEY Pierce's Supererog. (1593) 139 Although that same French Mirrour be..stuffed with geere homely enough, fit for a Libertine & frantique Theame; yet doth it [etc.]. 1631 T. POWELL Tom All Trades (1876) 167 A more libertine disposition. 1668 EVELYN Mem. (1857) II. 36 Amongst other libertine libels, there was..a bold petition of the poor w s to Lady Castlemaine. 1689-90 TEMPLE Ess. Poetry Wks. 1731 I. 238 There is something in the Genius of Poetry, too libertine to be confined to so many Rules. 1768-74 TUCKER Lt. Nat. (1834) II. 79 The libertine ant will choose her own settlement. 1847 EMERSON Wood Notes II. Poems 70 He is free and libertine, Pouring of his power the wine To every age, to every race.
b. Of literary composition, translation: Extremely free. Obs.
1656 COWLEY Pindar. Odes Pref., The Grammarians perhaps will not suffer this libertine way of rendring foreign Authors to be called Translation. a1683 OLDHAM Poet. Wks. Pref. (1686) 3 The Satyr and Odes of the Author..I have translated in the same libertine way. 1710 STEELE Tatler No. 172 2, I have rambled in this Libertine Manner of Writing by way of Essay. 1760 H. WALPOLE Let. to Sir D. Dalrymple 3 Feb., The transitions are as sudden as those in Pindar, but not so libertine.
4. Characterized by habitual disregard of moral law, esp. with regard to the relation of the sexes; licentious, dissolute; characteristic of or resembling a libertine.
1605 BACON Adv. Learn. II. xxv. §3. 121 The heathen Poets, when they fall upon a libertine passion, doe still expostulate with lawes and moralities, as if they were opposite and malignant to nature. 1699 BURNET 39 Art. Pref. (1700) 4 A tendency not only to Antinomianism, but to a Libertine course of life. 1762 GIBBON Misc. Wks. (1814) IV. 132 The frank libertine wit of their old stage. 1804 A. SEWARD Mem. E. Darwin 375 A band of libertine lovers..plight their promiscuous hymeneals. a1831 MACKINTOSH Rev. of 1688 Wks. 1846 II. 11 The attractions of his lively and some~what libertine conversation were among the means by which he maintained his ground with Charles II. 1886 F. HARRISON Choice of Bks. iii. 51 The Decameron..is redolent of that libertine humanism which stamps the Renascence.
Pure
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Black T said,
Libertine = Unrestrained by convention or morality.
If that is the correct description, than that certainly entails more than free sexual behavior.
I thought we were naming women who tried to mold their life to their needs instead of to the conventions of their time.
I think the defs posted by Perd cover the ground, agreed by most posters (esp. 2 and 4). I find them overly negative, which agrees with much usage, but they too much ignore the positive 'spin' of the term for many who so self-label.
They mostly have a sexual focus or content, though not exclusively, as you say. Probably because sexual behavior IS a good indication of how much you make a life on your own terms, and is a preeminent target of control in authoritarian and traditional societies. All my examples included some sexual lack of conventionality _among other nonconforming traits and practices_ e.g., Emma Goldman. I believe Lou Salome and Frida Kahlo fit, as well.
I think there's a extended meaning suggested by
3[*] below.
But if you want an even larger meaning of someone who's assertive, independent, and perhaps creative who molds a successful life in terms of one's own goals, that's a bit too far for me. That would make the exercise simply "Name illustrious and spirited women." Then you'd have the whole list in such a dictionary.
I'm not sure it's worth arguing specific cases, but maybe some general points emerge. My opinion is that Beauvoir had and developed many gifts, including literary and philosophical. She rejected a Catholic and bourgeois life. In her most important relationship, I think she ended a kind of emotional captive to a womanizer (libertine), one who really did wish to exploit the 'open' relationship--as she did not--and then would finally cut it off. Probably you know Beauvoir ended up 'in the cold' when Sartre adopted the last lover (A. E.), and in his will, left everything to that young lady and under her control. (E.g., Beauvoir had trouble accessing original manuscripts she and Sartre had worked on.) This is well detailed by Bair, e.g., at p. 582, 589, in her thorough bio of Beauvoir. So I would only agree that _in theory_ she espoused 'free' relationships. But if you say being independent, in many ways, and a noted author and philosopher of some originality make one a libertine, so be it.
J.
PS. to BB. Yay for Dietrich!
-----
OED exerpts posted by Perd.
3. A man who is not restrained by moral law, esp. in his relations with the female sex; one who leads a dissolute, licentious life. Rarely applied to a woman.
2. Acknowledging no law in religion or morals; free-thinking; antinomian. Also occas. Pertaining to the sects known as ‘Libertines’.
3[*]. Free or unrestrained in constitution, habit, conduct or language. Now rare or Obs.
4. Characterized by habitual disregard of moral law, esp. with regard to the relation of the sexes; licentious, dissolute; characteristic of or resembling a libertine.
Libertine = Unrestrained by convention or morality.
If that is the correct description, than that certainly entails more than free sexual behavior.
I thought we were naming women who tried to mold their life to their needs instead of to the conventions of their time.
I think the defs posted by Perd cover the ground, agreed by most posters (esp. 2 and 4). I find them overly negative, which agrees with much usage, but they too much ignore the positive 'spin' of the term for many who so self-label.
They mostly have a sexual focus or content, though not exclusively, as you say. Probably because sexual behavior IS a good indication of how much you make a life on your own terms, and is a preeminent target of control in authoritarian and traditional societies. All my examples included some sexual lack of conventionality _among other nonconforming traits and practices_ e.g., Emma Goldman. I believe Lou Salome and Frida Kahlo fit, as well.
I think there's a extended meaning suggested by
3[*] below.
But if you want an even larger meaning of someone who's assertive, independent, and perhaps creative who molds a successful life in terms of one's own goals, that's a bit too far for me. That would make the exercise simply "Name illustrious and spirited women." Then you'd have the whole list in such a dictionary.
I'm not sure it's worth arguing specific cases, but maybe some general points emerge. My opinion is that Beauvoir had and developed many gifts, including literary and philosophical. She rejected a Catholic and bourgeois life. In her most important relationship, I think she ended a kind of emotional captive to a womanizer (libertine), one who really did wish to exploit the 'open' relationship--as she did not--and then would finally cut it off. Probably you know Beauvoir ended up 'in the cold' when Sartre adopted the last lover (A. E.), and in his will, left everything to that young lady and under her control. (E.g., Beauvoir had trouble accessing original manuscripts she and Sartre had worked on.) This is well detailed by Bair, e.g., at p. 582, 589, in her thorough bio of Beauvoir. So I would only agree that _in theory_ she espoused 'free' relationships. But if you say being independent, in many ways, and a noted author and philosopher of some originality make one a libertine, so be it.
J.
PS. to BB. Yay for Dietrich!
-----
OED exerpts posted by Perd.
3. A man who is not restrained by moral law, esp. in his relations with the female sex; one who leads a dissolute, licentious life. Rarely applied to a woman.
2. Acknowledging no law in religion or morals; free-thinking; antinomian. Also occas. Pertaining to the sects known as ‘Libertines’.
3[*]. Free or unrestrained in constitution, habit, conduct or language. Now rare or Obs.
4. Characterized by habitual disregard of moral law, esp. with regard to the relation of the sexes; licentious, dissolute; characteristic of or resembling a libertine.
Last edited:
Pure
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Incidentally the topic of 'libertine'--including the definition-- was discussed by several people, including me, in the thread below, mainly in the sexual sense. Some posters there, at least at times, considered themselves female libertines and expressed their views.
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=244070
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=244070
Black Tulip
Not so delicate flower
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Thanks for the thread. I will take a look later today.
cynter
Really Really Experienced
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I AM LOVING THIS!
very pleased with this discussion! thank you for participating. a bit off topic...something more from a previous pm exchange with someone...i'd started this thread with the intent to learn more about libertinism and have done just that. also raised many more questions in the process. thank you! basically.....at a point in my life, which i'm sure most anyone can relate to, of feeling a need to define myself, maybe anchor myself a bit better in that definition. some times boundaries are good....sometimes restricting too. so anyway....looked at BDSM and poly....eh, not for me. the basic philosophy behind libertinism was the most appealing of what i am thus far acquainted with.....finally...just accepting that i really do not need labels to define myself. or in actuality....accept myself. i am who i am...or i yam who i yam
pretty standard middle age stuff, sigh..... still i'm loving this thread and hope it continues. is terrific fodder for stories!!
very pleased with this discussion! thank you for participating. a bit off topic...something more from a previous pm exchange with someone...i'd started this thread with the intent to learn more about libertinism and have done just that. also raised many more questions in the process. thank you! basically.....at a point in my life, which i'm sure most anyone can relate to, of feeling a need to define myself, maybe anchor myself a bit better in that definition. some times boundaries are good....sometimes restricting too. so anyway....looked at BDSM and poly....eh, not for me. the basic philosophy behind libertinism was the most appealing of what i am thus far acquainted with.....finally...just accepting that i really do not need labels to define myself. or in actuality....accept myself. i am who i am...or i yam who i yam
pretty standard middle age stuff, sigh..... still i'm loving this thread and hope it continues. is terrific fodder for stories!! 
Pure
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A definition
Sade, in The Story of Juliette:
La Durand, a character, is speaking:
Libertinage is a wandering of the senses which presupposes a rupture of all restraints, the most sovereign contempt for all prejudices, the total reversal of all cults*, the most profound horror for any kind of morals. [OC 1962-4, v 9, p 511]
*e.g., Christianity, or more particularly Roman Catholicism.
Sade, in The Story of Juliette:
La Durand, a character, is speaking:
Libertinage is a wandering of the senses which presupposes a rupture of all restraints, the most sovereign contempt for all prejudices, the total reversal of all cults*, the most profound horror for any kind of morals. [OC 1962-4, v 9, p 511]
*e.g., Christianity, or more particularly Roman Catholicism.
Last edited:
pop_54
The young Aviator LOL
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But why do they have to be famous or dead or both... look around and you'll see female Libertine's in the street, if that is wanton sexual behaviour and lack of feeling for their sex partner or what others might think of them is the criterion... I've been involved with a few
Pure
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Catherine, again.
On Catherine the Great (1729-1796; Empress, 1762), a gifted statesperson, a highly cultured individual, living in times of marked licentiousness of the aristocracy, it seems more useful to put some facts out, than discuss whether she was a 'libertine.' People may draw their own conclusions.
Note to Perd: I will withdraw the loaded term 'voracious,' applied to C's appetites. Let's just say she had very robust sexual drive, and the means to carry it out. Her aunt Elizabeth—known for her ménages—perhaps better qualifies for the term.
From, The Loves of Catherine the Great by V. Nikolaev, and A. Parry, 1982, p 253-4.
The book seems, in my lay opinion, well researched, and balanced on the issue; not unduly judgmental or grossly sensationalistic.
[start excerpt]
Catherine's principal lovers total up to an even dozen. They are listed here with their birth and death dates, but it is impossible to determine with any degree of accuracy the periods during which they enjoyed her favors.
[some details of list, dates, deleted]
1. S. Saltykov
2. Count S. A. Poniatowski
3. Prince G. G. Orlov,
4. A. Vasilchikov
5. Prince G. Potemkin-Tavrichesky
6. Count P. Zavadovsky
7. S. Zorich
8. Rimsky-Korsakov, Ivan. N.
9. A. Lanskoy
10. A. Yermolov
11. Count A. Dmitriyev-Mamonov
12. Prince P. Zubov
The intensity of her attachment to these men varied greatly. The liaison with Potemkin was the most enduring, and possibly included morganatic marriage, for the couple recognized each other's talents and got on well together. In addition to his services in the regal bed, Potemkin fought the Empress' battles, both on the military and the diplomatic fronts, and helped her achieve her ambitions of expanding the Russian empire.
In realizing that his sexual appeal to Catherine was waning, and in finding handsome young replacements for her, Potemkin once again demonstrated his superior foresight and discretion. This remarkable couple enjoyed for years a warm relationship totally free from jealousy or interference. The Empress and her esteemed friend must have compared notes about their savory adventures, and laughed heartily. Potemkin had many wondrous tales to tell, including the famous episode when he took to bed all five of his young nieces, the daughters of his younger sister Maria Engelhardt, one after the other, and sometimes simultaneously, for the quintet was madly in love with their illustrious uncle.
Among the men whom Potemkin sent to her, Catherine favored one, Alexander Lanskoy, with a special tenderness. Lanskoy died at twenty six, literally in her arms, and she wept deeply felt tears over him. Of his death in 1784, she wrote to Baron Melchior von Grimm that it left her in a state of desperate prostration. And when in 1796 she herself was dying, she parted from her very last lover, the nineteen-year-old Prince Platon Zubov, with profound affection and regret. At sixty seven, she could easily have been his grandmother.
In her rich and tumultous bedroom career Catherine dismissed four—Vasilchikov, Zavadovsky, Zorich, and Yermolov—quite casually because their mediocrity bored her early on. Two lovers—Rimsky-Korsakov, and Dmitriyev Mamonov—were sent packing because, like Gregory Orlov, they were found to be sleeping with other women.
In addition to the twelve, there were numerous casual affairs, but these usually took place when Catherine was not involved with one of her preferred lovers or when she knew that she was being betrayed.
During her long rule, and for nearly two centuries afterward, scabrous stories circulated concerning Catherine's phenomenal erotic life, and her entire adult existence was depicted as being an uninterrupted lascivious epic. The few historians who have recognized her political abilities have half heartedly tried to play down these tales.
There is no doubt that they were grossly exaggerated. […]
On the other hand, though not as promiscuous as her aunt, Empress Elizabeth, there is no question that Catherine II was known to give free rein to her appetites. And some of the men who passed trough her bedroom were indeed remarkable: John Paul Jones, in his reminiscences boasts of sleeping with Catherine and even adds that both had syphilis at the time and helped each other with their attempts to cure it.
[end verbatim excerpts]
-----
Note to Pops: of course you're right, it's just easier to discuss a famous someone for whom there are biographies and autobiographies, letters, etc. if I say, Jane Doe, who lives five doors up my street is fiercely independent says she has no use for rules and has fucked a hundred guys, how would we discuss her 'philosophy', unless I invite her to post!
Btw, I don't think sheer quantity of sex or of acts breaking the rules can define a libertine. It is, as in the Sade quote also a question of *attitude,* contempt for rules and determination to indulge ones impulses (though wisely).
On Catherine the Great (1729-1796; Empress, 1762), a gifted statesperson, a highly cultured individual, living in times of marked licentiousness of the aristocracy, it seems more useful to put some facts out, than discuss whether she was a 'libertine.' People may draw their own conclusions.
Note to Perd: I will withdraw the loaded term 'voracious,' applied to C's appetites. Let's just say she had very robust sexual drive, and the means to carry it out. Her aunt Elizabeth—known for her ménages—perhaps better qualifies for the term.
From, The Loves of Catherine the Great by V. Nikolaev, and A. Parry, 1982, p 253-4.
The book seems, in my lay opinion, well researched, and balanced on the issue; not unduly judgmental or grossly sensationalistic.
[start excerpt]
Catherine's principal lovers total up to an even dozen. They are listed here with their birth and death dates, but it is impossible to determine with any degree of accuracy the periods during which they enjoyed her favors.
[some details of list, dates, deleted]
1. S. Saltykov
2. Count S. A. Poniatowski
3. Prince G. G. Orlov,
4. A. Vasilchikov
5. Prince G. Potemkin-Tavrichesky
6. Count P. Zavadovsky
7. S. Zorich
8. Rimsky-Korsakov, Ivan. N.
9. A. Lanskoy
10. A. Yermolov
11. Count A. Dmitriyev-Mamonov
12. Prince P. Zubov
The intensity of her attachment to these men varied greatly. The liaison with Potemkin was the most enduring, and possibly included morganatic marriage, for the couple recognized each other's talents and got on well together. In addition to his services in the regal bed, Potemkin fought the Empress' battles, both on the military and the diplomatic fronts, and helped her achieve her ambitions of expanding the Russian empire.
In realizing that his sexual appeal to Catherine was waning, and in finding handsome young replacements for her, Potemkin once again demonstrated his superior foresight and discretion. This remarkable couple enjoyed for years a warm relationship totally free from jealousy or interference. The Empress and her esteemed friend must have compared notes about their savory adventures, and laughed heartily. Potemkin had many wondrous tales to tell, including the famous episode when he took to bed all five of his young nieces, the daughters of his younger sister Maria Engelhardt, one after the other, and sometimes simultaneously, for the quintet was madly in love with their illustrious uncle.
Among the men whom Potemkin sent to her, Catherine favored one, Alexander Lanskoy, with a special tenderness. Lanskoy died at twenty six, literally in her arms, and she wept deeply felt tears over him. Of his death in 1784, she wrote to Baron Melchior von Grimm that it left her in a state of desperate prostration. And when in 1796 she herself was dying, she parted from her very last lover, the nineteen-year-old Prince Platon Zubov, with profound affection and regret. At sixty seven, she could easily have been his grandmother.
In her rich and tumultous bedroom career Catherine dismissed four—Vasilchikov, Zavadovsky, Zorich, and Yermolov—quite casually because their mediocrity bored her early on. Two lovers—Rimsky-Korsakov, and Dmitriyev Mamonov—were sent packing because, like Gregory Orlov, they were found to be sleeping with other women.
In addition to the twelve, there were numerous casual affairs, but these usually took place when Catherine was not involved with one of her preferred lovers or when she knew that she was being betrayed.
During her long rule, and for nearly two centuries afterward, scabrous stories circulated concerning Catherine's phenomenal erotic life, and her entire adult existence was depicted as being an uninterrupted lascivious epic. The few historians who have recognized her political abilities have half heartedly tried to play down these tales.
There is no doubt that they were grossly exaggerated. […]
On the other hand, though not as promiscuous as her aunt, Empress Elizabeth, there is no question that Catherine II was known to give free rein to her appetites. And some of the men who passed trough her bedroom were indeed remarkable: John Paul Jones, in his reminiscences boasts of sleeping with Catherine and even adds that both had syphilis at the time and helped each other with their attempts to cure it.
[end verbatim excerpts]
-----
Note to Pops: of course you're right, it's just easier to discuss a famous someone for whom there are biographies and autobiographies, letters, etc. if I say, Jane Doe, who lives five doors up my street is fiercely independent says she has no use for rules and has fucked a hundred guys, how would we discuss her 'philosophy', unless I invite her to post!
Btw, I don't think sheer quantity of sex or of acts breaking the rules can define a libertine. It is, as in the Sade quote also a question of *attitude,* contempt for rules and determination to indulge ones impulses (though wisely).
Last edited:
G
Guest
Guest
Pure, you stubborn thing you. Do you know how old C2 was when she died? And you think 12 lovers excessive? (She was 23 when she lost her virginity to the man her mother-in-law chose to be the empire's sperm donor; 67 at death.) If you continue to research the old girl try some books, her life is extraordinarily interesting outside the bedroom. I still will not call her a 'libertine', perhaps a compassionate conservative. P.
cynter
Really Really Experienced
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2003
- Posts
- 368
Re: Catherine, again.
`snip`'Btw, I don't think sheer quantity of sex or of acts breaking the rules can define a libertine. It is, as in the Sade quote also a question of *attitude,* contempt for rules and determination to indulge ones impulses (though wisely).'
this snippet especially caught my eye.......
for me the term libertine is simply a convenience....something to hang my hat on. as in any instance of someone taking on a term as a label, it becomes more tailored and suited to my own tastes. for me it is more attitude than action (least for now...sigh). i'm disgusted with so much of how american society and culture has become....and yes, pragmatism still rules. its not like i can leave. and i will abide by the law. and i will vote in november, my feeble attempt to express my disgust publicly. but like i told someone the other day...i am an anarchist in my mind. so this libertinism is not limited to my sexuality but the whole of who i am. course that is subject to change without notice should i come across something more appealing......LOL. uh, yeah....
i hope this discussion continues....i'm enjoying and learning......
THANK YOU!
*kisses*
cyn
Pure said:
`snip`'Btw, I don't think sheer quantity of sex or of acts breaking the rules can define a libertine. It is, as in the Sade quote also a question of *attitude,* contempt for rules and determination to indulge ones impulses (though wisely).'
this snippet especially caught my eye.......
for me the term libertine is simply a convenience....something to hang my hat on. as in any instance of someone taking on a term as a label, it becomes more tailored and suited to my own tastes. for me it is more attitude than action (least for now...sigh). i'm disgusted with so much of how american society and culture has become....and yes, pragmatism still rules. its not like i can leave. and i will abide by the law. and i will vote in november, my feeble attempt to express my disgust publicly. but like i told someone the other day...i am an anarchist in my mind. so this libertinism is not limited to my sexuality but the whole of who i am. course that is subject to change without notice should i come across something more appealing......LOL. uh, yeah....
i hope this discussion continues....i'm enjoying and learning......
THANK YOU!
*kisses*
cyn
Black Tulip
Not so delicate flower
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2003
- Posts
- 5,945
Re: Catherine, again.
Yes, I agree about the attitude. But I would like to substitute the word "indulge". It has too much of a negative meaning, the connotation of a child that has not yet learned to control its urges.
Maybe that is just me?
I'd prefer a more positive perspective:
A libertine has a contempt for rules and has a determination to create room for ones impulses, regardless yada yada yada.
Pure said:
Yes, I agree about the attitude. But I would like to substitute the word "indulge". It has too much of a negative meaning, the connotation of a child that has not yet learned to control its urges.
Maybe that is just me?
I'd prefer a more positive perspective:
A libertine has a contempt for rules and has a determination to create room for ones impulses, regardless yada yada yada.
