Judaism, religion or ethnicity?

[00Syd]

I like the idea of "going biblical" only because it reminds me of how sexy I think "going primitive" is (raw animal lust, and all that).

I'm a pervert. Sorry.

 

[graceanne]

Sure, in biblical times.

Well, the language spoken in the synagogue's and stuff is Hebrew. And it works for people who are uncomfortable being half a religion.

 

[graceanne]

I'm a pervert. Sorry.

No. Way. A pervert? In here? WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?

 

[Etoile]

I don't think I can handle this thread. I spent an hour teaching my Dynamics of Oppression class the difference between Jewish-as-in-religion and Jewish-as-in-ethnicity last week. I was the only Jew in class, and I'm only Jewish-as-in-ethnicity, but I was answering religion questions left and right. (No, there's no presents in Hanukkah. No, it's not "skipping" work on Yom Kippur.) I'm tired of educating people. From what I can tell the thread seems to already be along the lines of what I would say anyway. I am just tired of defending my heritage when nobody else has to.

 

[graceanne]

I don't think I can handle this thread. I spent an hour teaching my Dynamics of Oppression class the difference between Jewish-as-in-religion and Jewish-as-in-ethnicity last week. I was the only Jew in class, and I'm only Jewish-as-in-ethnicity, but I was answering religion questions left and right. (No, there's no presents in Hanukkah. No, it's not "skipping" work on Yom Kippur.) I'm tired of educating people. From what I can tell the thread seems to already be along the lines of what I would say anyway. I am just tired of defending my heritage when nobody else has to.

There are a lot of people who are confused religious-wise. I am not saying that I have to defend my heritage like you do, but it always surprises me the people who don't know the difference between, say, a christian and a jew. The education in America is bad, we all know this, so it doesn't surprise me that they don't cover things like other cultures and beliefs.

 

[00Syd]

There are a lot of people who are confused religious-wise. I am not saying that I have to defend my heritage like you do, but it always surprises me the people who don't know the difference between, say, a christian and a jew. The education in America is bad, we all know this, so it doesn't surprise me that they don't cover things like other cultures and beliefs.

We did in Elementary school every year around Christmas. We would have a "festival of lights" where we learned about Christmas, Hanuka, and I think Kwanzaa, and maybe one other one. the emphasis was less on religion, and more on the different cultures and how they celebrated family, community, togetherness, peace, etc. Every class would do a presentation or sing a song or something in a big show with all the parents during a big potluck. Every kid and their family was encouraged to bring some traditional food to share.

Looking back on it, it was pretty great.

we always brought rugalah from Moishe's bakery.

 

[graceanne]

We did in Elementary school every year around Christmas. We would have a "festival of lights" where we learned about Christmas, Hanuka, and I think Kwanzaa, and maybe one other one. the emphasis was less on religion, and more on the different cultures and how they celebrated family, community, togetherness, peace, etc. Every class would do a presentation or sing a song or something in a big show with all the parents during a big potluck. Every kid and their family was encouraged to bring some traditional food to share.

Looking back on it, it was pretty great.

we always brought rugalah from Moishe's bakery.

Sounds cool. Until I was a teenager all I knew about Christmas was that it was Jesus' birthday. I only vaguely knew of Hanuka. I didn't even hear of Kwanzaa until I was an adult. A lot of what I've learned, I learned by myself through reading. I am not, by any means, a biblical scholar, but I'm a lot more learned than the average Christian about other cultures and beliefs.

 

[CurlyKat]

I don't know. I guess that as much as I love diversity, I also envy the unity that some countries have; the same way that as non-religious as I am, I sometimes envy the feeling of community that religion can bring. I wish I could relate more easily to more of my fellow American's than just those who grew up in the 5 boroughs.

Every single country I've been in has had the same kind of lack of cohesion that the U.S. has. Since I can use good, easy examples for Germany, we'll take that. While the official language of Germany is German, there are so many different dialects in different areas of Germany that someone from say the Munich area may not even be able to understand someone from the Cologne area. Germany's not a huge country, either. The longest it has ever taken me to drive from one side of the country to the other (literally border to border) was six hours, taking into account lots of traffic, too.

The traditions and customs are very different in different areas of Germany, as well. One state will have it's special days, or special foods, and everyone in that state will think that people from another state are just weird because they don't eat the same things or keep the same holidays.

Italy is the same way, too. The residents at the northernmost part of the country think of themselves as more Austrian-German than Italian. The food you get there will be more like German than Italian food. Then the difference between the food in Venice, Florence, Rome, and Sicily is astounding. Again, these places are not fair apart at all. But the culture is different in each different state.

All that to say that while yes, the U.S. is larger than most other countries, even our states are larger than many countries, we're not all that different. For the most part, while I might identify more closely with someone from one particular area over someone from another, we still are of the same nationality.

 

[intothewoods]

Well, the language spoken in the synagogue's and stuff is Hebrew. And it works for people who are uncomfortable being half a religion.

LOL, I know, I went to Hebrew school. I use it to refer to the language. If someone said to me "He's a Hebrew," I would know what they meant, but I would wonder why they are using that term.

 

[intothewoods]

We did in Elementary school every year around Christmas. We would have a "festival of lights" where we learned about Christmas, Hanuka, and I think Kwanzaa, and maybe one other one. the emphasis was less on religion, and more on the different cultures and how they celebrated family, community, togetherness, peace, etc. Every class would do a presentation or sing a song or something in a big show with all the parents during a big potluck. Every kid and their family was encouraged to bring some traditional food to share.

Looking back on it, it was pretty great.

we always brought rugalah from Moishe's bakery.

That's cool, although it does bother me that the only thing some people know about Judaism is Chanukah. People assume its "the Jewish Christmas" and a major Jewish holiday, when it's fairly minor.

 

[Aquila1]

Well I can't really comment on the Judaism aspect - I just don't have enough knowledge to add anything pertinent. But I do think that most religions tend to have very strong basis in culture and ethnicity - look at the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland for an example of what I mean.

It's pretty difficult to grow up in a religion or faith and not have it leave some kind of indelible impression. I should know - I liked it when the nuns caned me.

 

[WriterDom]

Well I can't really comment on the Judaism aspect - I just don't have enough knowledge to add anything pertinent. But I do think that most religions tend to have very strong basis in culture and ethnicity - look at the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland for an example of what I mean.

It's pretty difficult to grow up in a religion or faith and not have it leave some kind of indelible impression. I should know - I liked it when the nuns caned me.

Did they cane you through clothes, panties, or bare skin?

 

[oreocookie]

I am Jewish. But then again, I am also an interesting case.

In the Jewish faith, a person is inherently Jewish, both ethnically and religiously, by having a mother who is Jewish. My mother is Catholic, and my father is Jewish. As my mother explained to me, its tradition in Catholicism to take the religion of your father.

In other words, I cancel myself out with regard to inheriting a religion.

I was, however, raised in a more open situation. I was neither baptized or attended Hebrew school (the latter because the nearest synagogue was about a 45 minute drive from my house, and not driving on the Sabbath didn't really work well with that). I was not confirmed nor did I have a Bar Mitzvah. However, I do relate more to the Jewish core values and beliefs.

I do find it funny though how people consider someone to be partially Jewish. I was made fun of mercilessly in middle school and high school for being "half Jewish." Since I didn't really have a Jewish cultural upbringing I took being Jewish in more if the faith based idea, and so being half of a religion always seemed strange to me.

You're religious beliefs, if reflecting the certain teachings of an organized religion, shouldn't be considered in saying you are only partly something, IMHO.

-----

But even so I think it boils down to something similar to the whole "American" debates.

When you ask someone born in America their heritage they could give you a laundry list of nationalities that are in their family. I do the same thing. I am, nationality wise, Russian, Italian, German, and Irish. But when someone asks me my heritage I usually say "American," since I was born in the U.S. and was brought up culturally there.

But that's just my thoughts on it.

I find that funny considering religious Jews believe that you're only Jewish if you (A) convert or (B) your mother is Jewish. I know that's going back aways but I read it and felt a need to comment.

 

[oreocookie]

I don't think I can handle this thread. I spent an hour teaching my Dynamics of Oppression class the difference between Jewish-as-in-religion and Jewish-as-in-ethnicity last week. I was the only Jew in class, and I'm only Jewish-as-in-ethnicity, but I was answering religion questions left and right. (No, there's no presents in Hanukkah. No, it's not "skipping" work on Yom Kippur.) I'm tired of educating people. From what I can tell the thread seems to already be along the lines of what I would say anyway. I am just tired of defending my heritage when nobody else has to.

...

Most families DO give presents on Hanukah, actually.

 

[Etoile]

...

Most families DO give presents on Hanukah, actually.

Hanukkah doesn't include presents. It's not part of the holiday. However, most parents are sympathetic to the fact that all their kids' friends get presents for Xmas or whatever, and they give Hanukkah presents. Yes, most families do this now. But it's not part of the religious observance. It's more about keeping up with the Joneses.

 

[Etoile]

When you ask someone born in America their heritage they could give you a laundry list of nationalities that are in their family. I do the same thing. I am, nationality wise, Russian, Italian, German, and Irish. But when someone asks me my heritage I usually say "American," since I was born in the U.S. and was brought up culturally there.

BTW, this is what I meant by "defending my heritage" - when people ask me where I am from, I say I'm Jewish. No no, they say, where are you FROM. But that's just it. I'm not FROM anywhere. I'm Jewish. My family emigrated from a town called Volkovisk which is now in Belarus. But I don't know if it was Belarus when they lived there (emigrated in 1905) and I know they were not of Belarusian descent. They were Jewish. I am Jewish. It's part of being pushed around through the centuries...you aren't FROM anywhere.

And I wouldn't say "American" unless I was in a foreign country.

 

[graceanne]

Hanukkah doesn't include presents. It's not part of the holiday. However, most parents are sympathetic to the fact that all their kids' friends get presents for Xmas or whatever, and they give Hanukkah presents. Yes, most families do this now. But it's not part of the religious observance. It's more about keeping up with the Joneses.

In other words they give presents ON Hanukkah, not FOR Hanukkah.

 

[Etoile]

In other words they give presents ON Hanukkah, not FOR Hanukkah.

An excellent way of putting it!

And honestly I'm 110% okay with it. Only a depraved parent is going to tell little Moishe that even though his friend Timmy is getting a Red Ryder BB gun with a compass in the stock, he only gets to light some candles for a week?

 

[intothewoods]

BTW, this is what I meant by "defending my heritage" - when people ask me where I am from, I say I'm Jewish. No no, they say, where are you FROM. But that's just it. I'm not FROM anywhere. I'm Jewish. My family emigrated from a town called Volkovisk which is now in Belarus. But I don't know if it was Belarus when they lived there (emigrated in 1905) and I know they were not of Belarusian descent. They were Jewish. I am Jewish. It's part of being pushed around through the centuries...you aren't FROM anywhere.

And I wouldn't say "American" unless I was in a foreign country.

I understand what you mean, but I've never really felt like this. There are Russian Jews, Polish Jews, German Jews and so on, and so that's how I usually answer the question.

 

[Etoile]

I understand what you mean, but I've never really felt like this. There are Russian Jews, Polish Jews, German Jews and so on, and so that's how I usually answer the question.

That's true, but we have often been lesser beings in those countries. My family is from the time and place where pogroms happened. We were different, we were the "other" - we were not even citizens in some cases. And when you think about it from a genetic standpoint, we are not of the same "stock" - for example, Russians are often fair-haired and blue-eyed. Jews living in Russia were not of Russian extraction. We were simply that - Jews living in Russia. But not Russian. That's my point.

Eeeee, and I wasn't going to get involved in this thread because it was going to make me all angsty! Heh.

 

[intothewoods]

That's true, but we have often been lesser beings in those countries. My family is from the time and place where pogroms happened. We were different, we were the "other" - we were not even citizens in some cases. And when you think about it from a genetic standpoint, we are not of the same "stock" - for example, Russians are often fair-haired and blue-eyed. Jews living in Russia were not of Russian extraction. We were simply that - Jews living in Russia. But not Russian. That's my point.

Eeeee, and I wasn't going to get involved in this thread because it was going to make me all angsty! Heh.

Oh, I agree 1000%. A German is not the same ethnicity as a German Jew. But I think a German Jew does differ from a Russian Jew. I guess just because German Jews intermarried with Germans and Russian Jews intermarried or at least procreated with Russians.

 

[Rad'l]

I noticed deeper thoughts appearing as this thread went along through time. Ethnicicity and heritage are very delicate subjects and getting more attention these days. I would suggest that the trick is to live as best you can - noting, but not getting upset by, people who are different. A Jew is born of a Jewish mother. Having said that - I must admit that, over the years, I've met several converts. Converting ain't easy; in each case it was done to please a mate - which is quite, to me, impressive. Good luck; when you settle the question - let me know!

On the topic of 'american' - there is a book: "The Nine Nations of North America" by Joel Gareau that very cleverly divides North America into nine cultural 'nations'. Good read.

 

[Netzach]

I understand what you mean, but I've never really felt like this. There are Russian Jews, Polish Jews, German Jews and so on, and so that's how I usually answer the question.

I don't know if we were Russian or Polish, or how many of my great G's were Russian or Polish. I have only the vaguest bits of information about my grandparents early life and their parents.

 

[WriterDom]

Saw the groom at a wedding throw something white down, stomped on it and everyone shouted something. What the hell was that about?

 

[graceanne]

My family is German. I'm 3/4 German, 1/4 English. My kids are a mishmash. They're German, Czech, English, Irish, Scotch, and Welsh.