Know anything about Contract Law?

[SweetErika]

Let's say I got an estimate on a job from a contractor. I tell them it's the first estimate I've gotten so far, and I will be getting several others before I decide who gets the job. They had me sign the estimate, presumably agreeing the the price and work we'd discussed while they were looking at the job, but I missed a statement at on it that said I agreed they would perform the work detailed on the bid at the agreed upon price.

The contractor calls a couple of weeks later to see if I want to hire them. I tell them I've decided to hire a different contractor, and they say I signed the estimate/contract, so they will sue me if I don't pay them $100 to get out of the contract or let them perform the work. $100, or any other fee for breaking the contract, isn't mentioned anywhere on the paper I signed though, so it's clearly an intimidation tactic.

If I don't allow this contractor to perform the work, is the contract void? In other words, do they actually have a chance at winning the price of the estimate in court if I don't allow them to perform the work?

I don't think they could actually win the price of the contract or anything else in court without doing any work because the contract doesn't provide for any relief should the customer reneg (such as the $100 fee), but figured someone here might be more secure in their knowledge of contract law.

 

[Mr.G]

methinks they smell a gurl

and are trying to intimidate you into koffing up at least $100.

Depends on where you are but CONsumer Protection Laws are pretty strict just about everywhere in the civilized world now. An estimate is just that. He's giving you an estimate of what it will cost to do the job. THAT can bind him to a price after the work is done but it does NOT bind you in anyway to contracting him or paying him a fee for an estimate. He'd be laughed out of court so that is complete BS IMHO.

BTW, to supplement my small business I am a Process Server so I see a LOT of small claims court actions and in Canada he wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Further to that you should maybe contact the BBB and file a complaint against him for being intimidating and / or having you sign an obtuse or poorly worded "estimate" that they now say is an obligation. Have you got a copy of the "estimate" that you signed? What is the EXACT wording?

Read your piece again. WHY would he call you and ask if you wanted to hire him to do the work if he already believes that you signed an obligatory contract which already gives him the right to perform the work or sue you for breach.

UTTER CRAP!!

Good thing you decided on somebody else anyway, considering what a creep the dude turned out to be.

Lesson learned? ALWAYS READ WHAT YOU'RE SIGNING and don't sign ANYTHING that isn't spelled out EXACTLY what it is and which parties are agreeing to what. If the document is obtuse or even hints at anything BUT a simple estimate for a job don't sign it. From your description though I'm 98% certain that he's a creep and you have nothing to worry about.

 

[SweetErika]

99.9% of the time I'm very good about reading everything before signing, but there were some extenuating circumstances that day, so it ended up in the 0.1% category.

Yes, I have a copy of the estimate. I did sign under a statement that said I agreed for his company to perform the work listed at the price stated and pay after the work was completed. There is nothing about a fee to buy out the contract, so I don't think he has any legal recourse if I don't allow him to set foot on my property.

I've talked to other contractors, and they were appalled one of their own would resort to lying, trickery and pressuring a customer. They also think he's a lunatic for wanting to do the job for a hostile customer (obviously, I'm hostile because he vowed to sue me). No one I've spoken to has customers sign anything before there is a clear agreement to do the work, so it's not like this guy's behavior is an industry standard.

I'm far from stupid and am not worried about being sued at all. It'd likely cost him more than he'd win, and I can't imagine I'd lose. I'm more curious about clarifying the law on this point than anything - it's been a while since I took a business law class, and I can see how this information could be useful in other situations. Learning turns me on to no end.

 

[Dreamliner]

Quite simple, tell him to FUCK OFF.

discussion over.

 

[silverwhisper]

erika, i'm afraid that w/out the actual document it would be very hard to say in a void, which is compounded by not knowing the applicable state laws that apply where you live.

i agree that's ridiculous and if i were you, i'd tell the contractor in question that if he took a few weeks to follow-up, he clearly isn't that interested in your business.

ed

 

[fire_breeze]

So, being hit with a wave of insomnia, and because I'm the ultimate geek, I thought I'd do a little research. You wrote:

Yes, I have a copy of the estimate. I did sign under a statement that said I agreed for his company to perform the work listed at the price stated and pay after the work was completed. There is nothing about a fee to buy out the contract, so I don't think he has any legal recourse if I don't allow him to set foot on my property.

Not only that, but I'm pretty sure that the estimate does not have anything on it that says that a) you agree that you will hire the company (if you did, there would be starting dates) and that b) that what you signed is more than an estimate. Let me clarify: an estimate is an estimate, a contract is a contract: two separate documents, one is a simple agreement between the client and contractor, the other is a legal document. Agreements are hard to prove, legal not so much so.

Furthermore, you could turn the situation around and claim extortion, and that is a serious charge in whatever country. He is trying to pressure you into a contract and/or money. Threaten with a countersuit and he'll probably disappear.

I've talked to other contractors, and they were appalled one of their own would resort to lying, trickery and pressuring a customer. They also think he's a lunatic for wanting to do the job for a hostile customer (obviously, I'm hostile because he vowed to sue me). No one I've spoken to has customers sign anything before there is a clear agreement to do the work, so it's not like this guy's behavior is an industry standard.

If you want to really kick where it hurts, report him to the BBB (Better Business Bureau). Come to think of it, check out the website, as they have great information on consumer-protection and business obligation (http://www.thebbb.org/). And, I'm assuming that you're from in and around Seattle, here's the website for the Department of Executive Administration, consumer division (http://www.seattle.gov/consumerprotection/organizations_keyword.htm). There too, will it explain your rights as a consumer and the opportunity to lodge a complaint. AND you can check out at the sites whether the company is legit. If not, then you have all the more ammunition to present the case.
Okay, enough rambling. I hope it helps, good luck.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Laws and regulations vary from state to state, as do contractor licensing requirements, but by no means is this guys behavior the "norm". Your first call should be to the contractor's licensing authority. Find out if other complaints have been filed against this moron, discuss the situation with them, I'm certain that they'd love to know about it. Next call would be to the BBB, they can offer some assistance, but my experience is they're fairly useless. If you really want to do the full court press, contact the District Attorney's office and report the guy for extortion. They will probably find a few other charges that can be levied against the idiot. Odds are, this guy is just trying to get some money out of you and won't press the issue because suing you will cost him more than the $100 he's demanding, and it's doubtful that any court in the land will require you to pay for services NOT rendered. Even if it's a valid document, there are supporting documents and information that the customer must have, such as lien procedures, right to waive (cancel contract within a certain time period ), and a start/completion date - to which he is liable for hefty fines if he fails to start and operate as per the agreement.

I retired from the trade 5 years ago, and there is NO reason to require the homeowner to sign an estimate, with the only possible exception being for the contractor to have proof that he submitted a time sensitive document to you. Estimates are exactly that, an approximation for what a job will cost. Contracts, work orders, and change orders are what are important, the contract lays out the terms of the agreement, the work order outlines the scope of the agreed upon work, change orders cover unforeseen circumstances or additions to the scope of work. The few contractors I know that charge a fee for an estimate let the customer know up front that there is a fee and won't turn over the estimate without being paid. In addition, if you choose to hire them, the fee for the estimate is deducted from the cost of the work. I never felt the need to charge for an estimate. You win some, you lose some, it's all a part of doing business. Time spent doing an estimate should be calculated as part of the job, and recompense will be made upon winning the bid.

Again, laws and regs differ from state to state, even from city to city/county. It really doesn't sound like this guy has a leg to stand on and is susceptible to quite a slew of legal problems if he tried to enforce his threat.

 

[Chicklet]

g0g0 fire_breeze!!

Since you're a smart girl, Erika, I don't have anything to add. But well done on these responses!

And I hope you dig those bastards a hole to rot in!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

MR.G

Its not a sexual thing. When I worked in the construction industry I discovered contractors/sub-contractors will fuck anyone. Laws and licenses protect no one.

And I had more problems with friends and family than I did strangers. It was an education.

 

[bohes33]

I agree...

Hey Erika, I agree with most of the responses that have been posted. I practice alot of contract law cases and you seem to be in the clear on this one. If this contractor were to sue you, he would have to answer the question, "what are my damages?" It appears that he has none, and with no damages, there is no case. I think for him to be entitled to anything he would have to prove that he detrimentally relied on your execution of the estimate/contract, and missed out on other jobs (and thus $$$) as a result of that reliance. As you can see, it's pretty farfetched.

From a purely practical standpoint, he would not request just $100 if he were serious about this. It would cost a lawyer at least $200-$500 (depending on where you are) just to get them to write a nasty letter demanding the $100. NOT a cost effective manuever.

Also, as has been pointed out, alot depends on the laws of your state of residence. Some places are far more protective of consumers, so maybe do a little research of your own, and you could maybe nail this guy (not in the fun way).

 

[SweetErika]

Thanks for the info, Fire and NM! You brought up some excellent points, especially about extortion, that I didn't think about.

I don't think this will even get as far as hearing from his lawyer. If it does, it'll likely just be a letter meant to intimidate me. He said he's sued other people over this, but given his lying so far, I'm not placing a lot of value on that.

Unfortunately, WA doesn't require any special licenses for tree services - he just has a regular business license and a Labor & Industries certificate for workers comp. I'll definitely file a complaint with the state and BBB (though he's not a member), though. And, I'm going to post reviews of his company regardless of what he does.

He's messing with the wrong person.

 

[jakebarnes06]

A key point

Why did the contractor telephone you and ask if you wanted to hire him if it wasn't his understanding originally that you still were looking for other bids and may not select his bid? If that was your understanding and also his, then the contract probably is voidable because of a mutual mistake of fact, e.g., that the contract required that he perform construction and that you pay for it.

 

[SweetErika]

Hey Erika, I agree with most of the responses that have been posted. I practice alot of contract law cases and you seem to be in the clear on this one. If this contractor were to sue you, he would have to answer the question, "what are my damages?" It appears that he has none, and with no damages, there is no case. I think for him to be entitled to anything he would have to prove that he detrimentally relied on your execution of the estimate/contract, and missed out on other jobs (and thus $$$) as a result of that reliance. As you can see, it's pretty farfetched.

From a purely practical standpoint, he would not request just $100 if he were serious about this. It would cost a lawyer at least $200-$500 (depending on where you are) just to get them to write a nasty letter demanding the $100. NOT a cost effective manuever.

Also, as has been pointed out, alot depends on the laws of your state of residence. Some places are far more protective of consumers, so maybe do a little research of your own, and you could maybe nail this guy (not in the fun way).

That's good to know. Thanks, Bohes!

 

[wally2450]

It used to be about $35 just to file a small claims suit. I doubt very much he is going to go to the cost and time to try and make this stick.
Small claims in your area.
http://www.metrokc.gov/kcdc/scovrvw.htm

 

[fire_breeze]

Thanks for the info, Fire and NM!
...

He's messing with the wrong person.

Anytime! Keep us up to date and let us know what happens, okay? I wouldn't want to be in his shoes...

 

[NippleMuncher]

Thanks for the info, Fire and NM! You brought up some excellent points, especially about extortion, that I didn't think about.

He's messing with the wrong person.

You're welcome.

Sometimes that's all it takes. You go girl!

Selecting a contractor should be done as carefully as you would a doctor, dentist, attorney, etc. If you do not like, trust, or feel comfortable around the person, then you really should not be hiring them to work on or around your house. As a contractor I used the same guideline for selecting sub-contractors because their appearance, demeanor, and business practices reflected directly upon me, regardless of how good they were.

I was careful in the selection of my clients as well. There are some folks who will just be a pain in the ass, no matter how courteous or conscientious you are. They live to be a pain, and folks like that I refused to work for. My business was solely word of mouth, and my clients prescreened prospects prior to handing out my number. It was actually quite funny to get phone calls from a client saying "I gave your number out to someone, I hope that's alright". I'd always reassure them that as long as the prospect was just like them (easy going, considerate, appreciative ) that everything would be fine. I'd also get stories of friends and relatives looking for a contractor and my clients wouldn't tell them about me, knowing it wouldn't work out.

 

[Mandres]

Let him know that you'll consider his generous offer if he'll submit it in writing. If he does, stick it in a drawer. When he calls to follow up tell him you've forwarded it to the District Attorney's office regarding the laws against extortion, and that he'll have to take it up with them if he wants to pursue the matter.

You'll never hear from him again.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Just curious if anything ever became of this. Hope all is well.

 

[SweetErika]

Just curious if anything ever became of this. Hope all is well.

I haven't received a letter from his attorney, or anything else regarding this yet. I'm guessing it was an idle threat, though his lawyer may have set him straight.

While I haven't had time to file a complaint or write up a review, I still plan to do so.

The tree was removed the first week of October for $2400. That's a lot, but the guy we used had plenty of experience, insurance, a good bid and was telling the truth about the extent of the rot (which was through the center and all the way into the roots). He also looked at our other trees (large cedars) and said they should be fine through high winds.

We just had a storm, and it was a HUGE relief to not have it threatening two homes. The neighborinos are happy, too, and we have about 4 cords of great firewood to burn and maybe even sell to defray the cost of the removal.

 

[NippleMuncher]

Cool! Thanks for the update.

 

[wally2450]

I haven't received a letter from his attorney, or anything else regarding this yet. I'm guessing it was an idle threat, though his lawyer may have set him straight.

While I haven't had time to file a complaint or write up a review, I still plan to do so.

The tree was removed the first week of October for $2400. That's a lot, but the guy we used had plenty of experience, insurance, a good bid and was telling the truth about the extent of the rot (which was through the center and all the way into the roots). He also looked at our other trees (large cedars) and said they should be fine through high winds.

We just had a storm, and it was a HUGE relief to not have it threatening two homes. The neighborinos are happy, too, and we have about 4 cords of great firewood to burn and maybe even sell to defray the cost of the removal.

Good news.

 

[fire_breeze]

I haven't received a letter from his attorney, or anything else regarding this yet. I'm guessing it was an idle threat, though his lawyer may have set him straight.

While I haven't had time to file a complaint or write up a review, I still plan to do so.

The tree was removed the first week of October for $2400. That's a lot, but the guy we used had plenty of experience, insurance, a good bid and was telling the truth about the extent of the rot (which was through the center and all the way into the roots). He also looked at our other trees (large cedars) and said they should be fine through high winds.

We just had a storm, and it was a HUGE relief to not have it threatening two homes. The neighborinos are happy, too, and we have about 4 cords of great firewood to burn and maybe even sell to defray the cost of the removal.

Fantastic news!

 

[redred001]

You should also file a complaint with your county and state Lic. Board since the BBB
has no real power it is some thing a business owner does on a voultary basis the state and local boards are manditory so if he gets a letter from them it'll make him sweat a little more

 

[Weird Harold]

You should also file a complaint with your county and state Lic. Board since the BBB
has no real power it is some thing a business owner does on a voultary basis the state and local boards are manditory so if he gets a letter from them it'll make him sweat a little more

Good point enough coplaints to the licensing authorities could eventually cost him his business license.

However, licensing authorities are usually barred by law from revealing any information they may have on licensees -- i.e. you can't call them for a recommendation or review -- but that is the whole purpose of the BBB; to reccommend good businesses and give bad reviews of bad businesses to the consumers.

A complaint to the licensing board can affect his license; a complaint to the BBB will be more likely affect his bottom line by costing him business.

 

[NippleMuncher]

However, licensing authorities are usually barred by law from revealing any information they may have on licensees -- i.e. you can't call them for a recommendation or review -- but that is the whole purpose of the BBB; to reccommend good businesses and give bad reviews of bad businesses to the consumers.

Here in California, the licensing board will tell you if there are any infractions against a contractor and whether their license is properly in force. They won't give details about punitive actions, only whether or not an action has been taken and for what reason - i.e. expired license, lack of insurance, improper business practices.