Language Barrier

[CeriseNoire]

Yes. I'm just as much hurt, I think, as I am angry. I truly never expected this.

*hugs cloudy*

This thread just made me feel so... *sighs and hugs cloudy again*

 

[cloudy]

*hugs cloudy*

This thread just made me feel so... *sighs and hugs cloudy again*

Thanks.

 

[cantdog]

Uh, you're human so you'll see ugly attitudes every day. It's hard to hold the high ground accusing others of racism and prejudice when you're so proud of your own. THIS is what got you misunderstood --- or more accurately buried the part of your posts that you keep pointing out that everyone has missed.

I'm not real certain they missed tham. Rationalizing sometimes requires that kind of noise in the ears. I think TxRad and purple letters said, over and over, how important and civil it is to learn English in America to drown out and gloss over how uncivil their own resentment is. I don't think they necessarily missed cloudy agreeing, or me, or any of the other people who did. It was too important to set up a smokescreen with that argument.

While we are at it, it has holes, that argument. The holes are in New Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas.

If someone emigrates, they do what they can to at least make sure their kids learn the language; all that is true. The Mexicans in the Southwest, some of them, did not come here. We went there. We called it the War With Mexico. The excuses for the war were bogus, and the object of the war was conquest-- imperialism.

Since you too seem to think an immigrant needs to learn the language, how do you feel about a bunch of strutting yahoos who suddenly run the place and expect you to learn their language because they shot enough of your soldiers and blew up enough of your towns? Not so inclined to be civil about it?

Or maybe you figure if someone sets out to conquer a pack of Mexicans, then they will just have to like it when they have to govern a pack of Mexicans. And as a Mexican, maybe you'll get around to learning their language when it jolly well suits you.

Ohio may be different, I dunno. The story about the fireman and the story about the dispatcher seem to have met with the same solutions on all sides. But the real bone of contention here was neither the fireman story nor the dispatcher story, but the ugly attitude of the poster.

It is not the case that some blind prejudices are okay and others aren't. It's no more reasonable or logical or "correct" to lump all liberals together than it is to lump all conservatives together or all whites or blacks or Californians or Southerners or retirees or what-have-you.

"Correct" my ass. Every poster with the same rotten things to say is liable to look just as rotten, and to be thought of as just as rotten. No group labels needed. Your post qualifies. I don't have to lump you into anything to find you offensive. It doesn't make a hoot in hell what group you're in.

Is there a faction in America that is xenophobic and anti-immigrant and that often spouts off about those who won't learn the language? Yes. But there is also clearly a faction that believes that it's okay to punish firemen for doing their jobs to the best of their ability in order to make a statement about racism that happens elsewhere.

Both of these positions are equally wrong.

Good. Then get off the position.

Okay, it's another communication issue, but is it the fault of the people who misunderstood you or is it your fault for not making your point clear?

Except that I thought your point was pretty clear.

You agree that there are some people who should learn to speak English but the benefit of your doubt is always with any non-English speaker before it is with some backwards-ass cracker who probably bakes cookies for Klan rallies -- which is your initial judgement of anyone who has anything even marginal to say about non-English speakers. (I'm exaggerating for emphasis, truly you weren't that rabid, but the implication was there.)

Excuse me? Is that a statement of some kind?

We're human, we're going to have biases. Nobody gets by without them, but if they get in the way of being understood, then maybe it's worthwhile to curb them a bit.

And, as I said, it wasn't your posts alone. One tends to get lumped in with a "side" and if others on your side are making certain arguments then their tone is also attributed to you.

It was your posts alone, trust me. I don't think there's a communication issue. I hear you just fine.

 

[cantdog]

Although you were talking to Cloudy - Yes. I can honestly tell you that it doesn't bother me that I can't understand someone. It doesn't aggravate me or frustrate me and it isn't maddening.

If it was, then I would think it a very sad failing on my part. I also think I would cry myself to sleep every night, would have major ulcers from the stress, would be afraid to leave my apartment to go to the bank, supermarket or a restaurant or anywhere. I'd probably get paranoid that people were talking about me. If it bothered me, then I doubt I'd be much of an adventurer or an open-minded individual. If it bothered me, frustrated me or made me mad, then I probably should have stayed in North America, where apparently English is the only thing you should ever speak and where all other languages are discouraged.

To qualify, I have been in Portugal for six months. I know a bit of Spanish and a bit of French, but when I first arrived, I didn't understand one word of Portuguese, not even how to say thank you. Finding my way across the language barrier has been an adventure and I don't think my not being able to form complete sentences has bothered anyone since I've been here.

A foreigner in a foreign country is like a child learning how to talk and yet often Americans have more tolerance and patience for children than adults who don't "speak their language". Since being here I have had the opportunity to observe a lot of Americans and especially find it curious why they seem to think that when they are travelling in foreign countries, everyone in that country should also speak American. (lol) It's weird.

It gratifies people to be met with a familiar language. Anyone who has experienced it can tell you it's true. I always enjoy being called on to play translator, the more so if I know it's very temporary! But that's because I'm lazy.

I love this post. Especially the first part, before you clarify. You're amazin, kid.

 

[elsol]

Thank you for this post.

There are some that'll never believe it, but thank you anyway.

Figured people would be interested in the view of someone who lived inside the issue. I mean there's some very weird shit that happens in immigrant homes when it comes to the Language barrier.

Like two people communicating fluently in two completely different languages.

Child --- English --> Parent

Parent -- Spanish --> Child.

By the time, the three boys in my family hit their teens we rarely spoke spanish to any adult in our family, andd to this day are NEVER replied to in English.

It's perfectly natural thing to us that I didn't question until I pissed off my girlfriend who is taking a spanish major by not answering her in spanish. I mean fuck, if my mother can do it... why can't a college educated person in the language, who can also speak two other languages do it?

 

[cantdog]

On the flip side, it is equally unfair or unrealistic for everyone coming to this country to expect the country to bend over backwards to accomidate them if they don't speak English and especially if they've no intention of learning it. HENCE the Fireman example. The expectation there was that the department SHOULD know Spanish...and why should they?

You can't have it both ways. You can't be embarassed by U.S. Citizen refusing to learn a foreign language, and yet forgive foreigners who refuse to learn English--or who get upset if signs, etc. are only in English.

What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

What's wrong with expecting my countrymen to be helpful to people? Leave politics out and think about it. Would you not appreciate help when you need help?

So yeah. I can have it both ways all I want. The message is, quit being such dicks to each other. You don't have to go around telling people about the 'official language' in this country to rationalize your resentment of the foreigner. Just quit resenting the foreigner, that's all. Real simple.

You may be sure that a company which goes out of its way to hire undocumented immigrants will also make sure someone on the supervisory staff can speak to them. If they don't they deserve to hear Em's story, repeated in their offices sixty times a day.

And why do we want patrolmen in a Spanish neighborhood in Los Angeles to speak Spanish? Duh! We want them to be effective as patrolmen, of course. Why else? Honestly.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Three days ago, a 3-year-old girl went missing, a foreigner, with foreign parents who don't speak a single word of the language. She disappeared while the parents were having dinner (which I find disgusting in itself, because not knowing the language to order properly, they should be eating whatever scrapes they came across in the nearest dumpster), and fifteen minutes after the girl's absence was noticed, the local police was already launching a full-scale search operation. The morning after, the parents gave a press conference in their own language, asking for help, I gather. Pfft. Good luck with that. Speak to me in a way I can understand and then maybe I'll see what I can do. If not, well, what's the difference to me?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Same with cutting hair. Ever try and do a haircut blindfolded? That's kinda what it's like.

I need to tell my mother to join the circus as a blindfolded knife-thrower. She usually has between 10 and 15 tourists who don't speak a word of the language come in as costumers to her salon every week, and she is always excited about it and how somehow they still manage to make each other understood. What a freak.

 

[cloudy]

Three days ago, a 3-year-old girl went missing, a foreigner, with foreign parents who don't speak a single word of the language. She disappeared while the parents were having dinner (which I find disgusting in itself, because not knowing the language to order properly, they should be eating whatever scrapes they came across in the nearest dumpster), and fifteen minutes after the girl's absence was noticed, the local police was already launching a full-scale search operation. The morning after, the parents gave a press conference in their own language, asking for help, I gather. Pfft. Good luck with that. Speak to me in a way I can understand and then maybe I'll see what I can do. If not, well, what's the difference to me?

No shit, no smokescreen, just right on the money, as always, Lauren, except that you forgot the "I don't discriminate" disclaimer at the beginning.

To others: what Lauren said may seem harsh to you, but from my point of view, and obviously from hers, this is exactly what some of the posts sound like.

 

[CeriseNoire]

No shit, no smokescreen, just right on the money, as always, Lauren, except that you forgot the "I don't discriminate" disclaimer at the beginning.

To others: what Lauren said may seem harsh to you, but from my point of view, and obviously from hers, this is exactly what some of the posts sound like.

I can't help but agree. Personally, I read the first line "I don't discriminate, but..." and had a feeling I should back-click and ignore the thread (need to start trusting my instincts ). Maybe I'm overgeneralizing based on experience, but I have yet to see statements beginning with "I'm not a racist/homophobe/misogynist/manhater/etc" end pleasantly.

In any case, there is some good to be found here. In this day of political correctness, it's always hard to know where people stand. When things like this come up, the way people respond makes the picture much clearer.

So much for keeping my mouth shut as I intended I'll go curl up in the foreigner corner now.

 

[cloudy]

I can't help but agree. Personally, I read the first line "I don't discriminate, but..." and had a feeling I should back-click and ignore the thread (need to start trusting my instincts ). Maybe I'm overgeneralizing based on experience, but I have yet to see statements beginning with "I'm not a racist/homophobe/misogynist/manhater/etc" end pleasantly.

In any case, there is some good to be found here. In this day of political correctness, it's always hard to know where people stand. When things like this come up, the way people respond makes the picture much clearer.

So much for keeping my mouth shut as I intended I'll go curl up in the foreigner corner now.

I'll go with you.

 

[wideeyedone]

i work in a bilingual school in texas. i have taught children that speak arabic, spanish, albanian, turkish and greek. it is a challenge. but each of those languages are lovely and each child's culture has been valid.

it is hard to find materials to help a child that speaks a language other than english or spanish. i know their parents struggle with paperwork, lunch assistance, medical care because of the language. translators are tough to find... about half of our staff is bilingual so spanish is covered and we have one teacher that speaks arabic.

but they are good people who love their children. many of them are the working poor. domestics, construction, food service workers....
they are trying to carve out a new life and a new home. it is an admirable thing.

i know they walk a fine line. trying to learn a new language while making sure they their children retain their home language as well. research shows that children should learn to read and write in their first language and then learning will transfer over to their second language after.

children who are literate a little, in two languages get bogged down thinking between the two.


just my two cents... in a random and slightly off topic way.

 

[cloudy]

i work in a bilingual school in texas. i have taught children that speak arabic, spanish, albanian, turkish and greek. it is a challenge. but each of those languages are lovely and each child's culture has been valid.

it is hard to find materials to help a child that speaks a language other than english or spanish. i know their parents struggle with paperwork, lunch assistance, medical care because of the language. translators are tough to find... about half of our staff is bilingual so spanish is covered and we have one teacher that speaks arabic.

but they are good people who love their children. many of them are the working poor. domestics, construction, food service workers....
they are trying to carve out a new life and a new home. it is an admirable thing.

i know they walk a fine line. trying to learn a new language while making sure they their children retain their home language as well. research shows that children should learn to read and write in their first language and then learning will transfer over to their second language after.

children who are literate a little, in two languages get bogged down thinking between the two.


just my two cents... in a random and slightly off topic way.

Thank you for a voice of reason.

 

[bridgeburner]

I'm not real certain they missed tham. Rationalizing sometimes requires that kind of noise in the ears. I think TxRad and purple letters said, over and over, how important and civil it is to learn English in America to drown out and gloss over how uncivil their own resentment is. I don't think they necessarily missed cloudy agreeing, or me, or any of the other people who did. It was too important to set up a smokescreen with that argument.

Cloudy's post indicated that she couldn't understand why people were missing an important part of her post -- specifically Emerald Kitten but the implication was that there were others --- I was offering what I felt to be the reason that one of her points got lost in the shuffle.

While we are at it, it has holes, that argument. The holes are in New Mexico, Arizona, California and Texas.

If someone emigrates, they do what they can to at least make sure their kids learn the language; all that is true. The Mexicans in the Southwest, some of them, did not come here. We went there. We called it the War With Mexico. The excuses for the war were bogus, and the object of the war was conquest-- imperialism.

Since you too seem to think an immigrant needs to learn the language, how do you feel about a bunch of strutting yahoos who suddenly run the place and expect you to learn their language because they shot enough of your soldiers and blew up enough of your towns? Not so inclined to be civil about it?

Or maybe you figure if someone sets out to conquer a pack of Mexicans, then they will just have to like it when they have to govern a pack of Mexicans. And as a Mexican, maybe you'll get around to learning their language when it jolly well suits you.

Yes do let's argue about giving back half the U.S. to France and Spain or all of it to my ancestors while we're at it because that's so pertinent to the issue at hand.

Ohio may be different, I dunno. The story about the fireman and the story about the dispatcher seem to have met with the same solutions on all sides. But the real bone of contention here was neither the fireman story nor the dispatcher story, but the ugly attitude of the poster.

I disagreed with her conclusion in the case of the dispatcher and agreed with the fact that the firemen should not have been used as a scapegoat to further anyone's political agenda. While some of her views were distasteful to me I didn't find her to be confrontational or personally offensive nor did I feel that her post was intended to insult anyone either righteously or self-righteously.

"Correct" my ass. Every poster with the same rotten things to say is liable to look just as rotten, and to be thought of as just as rotten. No group labels needed. Your post qualifies.

I'm not sure why you think being anti-anglo is any less racist a position than being antisemetic or anti-immigrant. A bigot is defined by the manner of his hatred not by the subject.

I don't have to lump you into anything to find you offensive. It doesn't make a hoot in hell what group you're in.

Although you quite clearly have regardless of whether you actually know what my position is.

Good. Then get off the position.

Except that I very clearly stated that I hold with neither of those positions.

Excuse me? Is that a statement of some kind?

Yes, and now that I've read back over the thread again I owe Cloudy an apology since I had confused some of your posts for hers.

It was your posts alone, trust me. I don't think there's a communication issue. I hear you just fine.

You may hear but you don't seem to really listen.

 

[bridgeburner]

Cloudy

Cloudy,

I don't know if you saw my reference to you in my last post but I do sincerely apologize for mistaking some others' posts for yours. I can only chalk it up to frustration making me impatient about re-reading and correctly preparing to address the posts I was thinking of.

My frustration in situations such as these is that I see an opportunity missed. The opportunity to truly educate someone and hopefully change or at least expand her views. Some people can't be engaged. Others can, but I have yet to see anyone respond favorably to being mocked and insulted.

As it stands the field appears to be clear and all in agreement.....but sadly only because others have left to be engaged yet another day.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I have yet to see anyone respond favorably to being mocked and insulted.

The first post of this thread and, in an ever more disgusting way, the agreement with which it was met by many, was a mockery and an insult to the human race.

Le Pen doesn't seem have too many moral qualms when people say he's a xenophobe after he makes an appeal to xenophobia. And he doesn't preface his discriminatory statements with "I'm not one to discriminate, but." You can add insult to anyone with more than two working brain cells to the list.

 

[EmeraldKitten]

Okay, I'm a discriminatory asshole. Better?
I'm an ignorant, unintelligent, hillbilly redneck that shoulda been drowned at birth.

I don't think my original post was asshole-ish, and I tried to be nice about it. I wasn't trying to ruffle feathers.. my god.

Thanks again to everyone for participating- like I said, it's been interesting. I thought it would be neat to see what other people thought- I never expected it to turn into a 'bash EK and everyone else who holds the same opinion' party.
I had no idea I was such a terrible person with a horrible attitude... gee, now I feel bad. I might cry myself to sleep tonight.

It's just an opinion people. Same as yours. What makes you so right and me/us so wrong? Nothing. There isn't a right or a wrong answer. It's just how you feel.
And yes, you might be disappointed to find someone ya liked feels the same way I do, but it's a good thing this happened- you might've been really good friends with them and then their true colors shone through then what would've ya done?

Yes, I realize this post is just full of sarcasm, but I'm done trying to show my positon. It seems some people aren't 'open-minded' enough to hear it, appreciate it for what it is- my opinion- and then move on with their day. What I say doesn't affect any of you in the grand scheme of life.. my god, I'm some chick you know off an internet message board. *shrugs*
I don't dislike anyone for their position 'against' me. It's how you feel. Cool beans. Yayyyy for your opinion!

And Lauren- in reply to your post about your mom and the tourists- good for her. That must be exciting to meet different people. I think it'd be awesome to talk to someone about where they're from, and what their life was/is like. If you can hold a conversation.
Like I said, I live in a podunk town with nothing but white people, so that doesn't affect me at my job now. But when I was in beauty school, it was a problem.
Yeah, ya manage to get across what they want- after a half hour with both of you getting frustrated about it. And having a conversation during the cut, once you find out what they want- impossible, and aggravating for the both of you.
Maybe I just haven't gotten the right kinda customer- who knows?
Freak.. right. That's it.

So maybe when the immigrants threaten to take over this town, I'll move into the backwoods and hang a rebel flag from my front porch.

Sorry this thread is a sarcastic asshole response, but as I said, I'm tired of explaining myself. It is what it is. Let's agree to disagree.
If ya don't like me over a comment I made... it's probably for the better.

Please continue- discuss amongst yourselves. What a fun game!

 

[cloudy]

I don't think my original post was asshole-ish, and I tried to be nice about it. I wasn't trying to ruffle feathers.. my god.

It's rather hard to "be nice" while you're being discriminatory. Just so you know.

 

[cantdog]

Pfui. Thread has run its course.

 

[EmeraldKitten]

It's rather hard to "be nice" while you're being discriminatory. Just so you know.

I was discriminatory in a nice way. I didn't toss out racial slurs, followed by how they need to go to their homeland, I didn't say they didn't belong here, etc.
I think I was pretty calm and to the point about it.
But discrimination is discrimination and I'm an ugly person for it. I get it.

 

[cloudy]

I was discriminatory in a nice way. I didn't toss out racial slurs, followed by how they need to go to their homeland, I didn't say they didn't belong here, etc.
I think I was pretty calm and to the point about it.
But discrimination is discrimination and I'm an ugly person for it. I get it.

Discrimination is ugly. "Discriminatory in a nice way" is an oxymoron if I've ever heard one. No, you didn't toss out racial slurs, but I would almost rather you had. The way you did it is much more subtle, much more insidious, whether you realize it or not.

I don't think you did it intentionally, no, but still, you did it. The fact that you're getting so defensive tells me that you're quite aware (now) that what you said was discriminatory, but you're still too entrenched in that position to simply say "hey, I didn't realize how much hurt this type of thing causes. I'm sorry." Wouldn't be hard to do, although I somehow get the impression that it would be hard for you to say it and be sincere about it. You seem to think that being "discriminatory in a nice way" is just fine and dandy.

And it does hurt. It hurts everybody, not just me, because let's face it, *I* don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. What worries me, to be honest, is that my children are growing up in a country in which it still sucks to be anything but anglo. For some insane reason, I really hoped things would be better for them.

[sarcasm] But, of course, defending your position, even if wrong, is so much more important than hurting anyone else. [/sarcasm]

And, no, it's not just an opinion with no right or wrong. It's wrong to discriminate against someone simply because they are different from you. Period. You know this, I know you do.

btw: no one is calling you names except yourself. And, I'm not angry with you, or anyone else here. I'm simply disappointed and more than a little sad. It's disheartening to realize that things really haven't changed much in the last couple of hundred years.

 

[oggbashan]

Plus ça change...

The United Kingdom and specifically England, has always been a place for immigrants to make a new life. Our history is filled with invasions, peaceful and otherwise.

Locally, the Hugenots had a significant impact on the economy. The Hugenot Church meets in the crypt of Canterbury Cathedral and conduct their services in French - and have done so for several hundred years. Rochester has a French Hospital founded for Hugenots. Our local architecture still shows Hugenot influence.

We have memorials to the forceful invasions of the Romans, the Vikings, the French (often), and evidence of peaceful invasions as well. Polish shops are now commonplace, serving the Polish community. Chinese and Indian restaurants are popular places for an evening meal and now one really enquires whether the staff are genuine first generation immigrants or second and later generation Brits.

The flow of immigrants has been unceasing, sometimes matched by the outflow of emigrants, currently to the popular destinations of France, Portugal and Spain.

Eventually most of the immigrants adapt to the English way of life, and the English way of life adapts to them. Sometimes there are real frictions and animosity often caused by ignorance on both sides. Sometimes immigrant communities offend by refusing to compromise with normally accepted conventions; or are themselves offended by behaviours that would be considered impossibly illegal where they had come from. An example is crowds of young people exhibiting public drunkeness. One does not have to be an immigrant to be annoyed by drunken antics every night, but if one's culture bans alcohol, there can be a greater reluctance to tolerate or excuse.

I and my family have had and have more contact with immigrants than the local norm. We have travelled to places where English is not spoken and survived with a modicum of the local language. My daughters' various employments mean daily contact with non-English-born people as a matter of course. All that is usually necessary is a willingness, on both sides, to communicate in whatever way they can.

Immigrants who do not know English usually find that learning English has economic as well as social advantages. Helping those who cannot communicate freely in English is a courtesy. As there is a continuing flow of immigration, last year's immigrant may have learned the basics of English, but today's will still have some way to go.

The converse is also true. If I am to travel to a non-English speaking country, it is essential for me to at least learn the basics of the local language, even for a two-week holiday. I'll get more out of the holiday if I can communicate.

Emigration (and immigration) is a traumatic experience for anyone. A initial helping hand from the locals will make the newcomer more likely to integrate than hostility.

Og

PS. I was once an immigrant into Australia. I cannot fault the welcome I had, not just from the Australian people, but from the Australian authorities. I was only technically an immigrant, because my stay was limited to two years, but it was made clear that if I wanted to stay, I could, and that I would be welcome. I wish all immigrants had the same experience.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

It's just an opinion people. Same as yours. What makes you so right and me/us so wrong? Nothing. There isn't a right or a wrong answer. It's just how you feel.

You're right, it is just how you feel, and there's no need to justify it further. In my opinion, there is a right way of answering to a xenophobe. You just keep true to your world view, and I'll keep doing whatever I can to exercise that answer. I'll sleep a lot better at night if I do that even at the cost of being nice, rather than being a nice xenophobe.

And Lauren- in reply to your post about your mom and the tourists- good for her. That must be exciting to meet different people. I think it'd be awesome to talk to someone about where they're from, and what their life was/is like. If you can hold a conversation.

My mother has only studied up to the 3rd grade and has no knowledge whatsoever of any foreign language, nor do those foreigners have any knowledge of hers.

 

[cantdog]

Cloudy's post indicated that she couldn't understand why people were missing an important part of her post -- specifically Emerald Kitten but the implication was that there were others --- I was offering what I felt to be the reason that one of her points got lost in the shuffle.

You may hear but you don't seem to really listen.

Thanks for your public service.

 

[angelicminx]

I saw something today that I thought was kinda cool. Lowe's had a sign posted near the checkout by customer service that indicated assistance for people who spoke any of at least 15 different languages. At the top of the sign it said in English, "Please point to the language you can understand" (Or something to that effect), with 4 languages in print underneath it. Being as I can't read any other language, I can only hope that each language said the same thing. Underneath those 5 statements was a chart listing other languages. I can't list them here, because I just don't recall which ones exactly, but I did see Pakistani on the list.