Language in period settings.

[Weird Harold]

If you were writing dialog set in medieval times, or more precisely a fantasy world with a medieval flavour, what language would be appropriate?

I personally prefer period pieces that are "translated" into modern language -- with appropriate modern dialects substituted for "peasant dialect" and "noble speech."

Generally a "modern translation" that gives a slightly "foreign" feel to the language and culture generally works best rather than a lot of modern colloqualisms, but I don't get upset with things like "Okay" because here was some equivalent in just about every period of history.

 

[oggbashan]

I personally prefer period pieces that are "translated" into modern language -- with appropriate modern dialects substituted for "peasant dialect" and "noble speech."

Generally a "modern translation" that gives a slightly "foreign" feel to the language and culture generally works best rather than a lot of modern colloqualisms, but I don't get upset with things like "Okay" because here was some equivalent in just about every period of history.

I think that anachronisms are a worse sin than "Okay" even if Shakespeare had a clock strike in "Julius Caesar".

Og

 

[Vermilion]

Not for gentiles they don't.

The majority of men in Britain are uncircumcised (excluding, of course, those who have it done for religious reasons).

Circumcision as a cultural thing is much more a US thing. And since the American population - well, those speaking English anyway - was somewhat limited in the 15thC I'm assuming this is set in Europe...

x
V

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

My favorite quote on Midevil comes from Samuel B. Mayer. During the making of Sir Lancelot or some such, the writers put in lines like:

"Yes, Sire" and ended with a bow.

Mayer called the writers together and screamed at them that the dialogue sounded really stupid. When asked why he thought so, Mayer replied, "Do you really think those guys went around saying, "Yes, siree?"

 

[human_male]

My favorite quote on Midevil comes from Samuel B. Mayer. During the making of Sir Lancelot or some such, the writers put in lines like:

"Yes, Sire" and ended with a bow.

Mayer called the writers together and screamed at them that the dialogue sounded really stupid. When asked why he thought so, Mayer replied, "Do you really think those guys went around saying, "Yes, siree?"

Lol.

*waves*

 

[human_male]

I love writing period speech, and always have to edit myself back.

I like to use 'thou', 'thee' and 'thine' instead of 'you' and 'yours', 'tis, tisn't, mayhap, haply-- somehow I find 'verily" strikes a cartoon note, but maybe that's just me.

As far as "I am" you might be able to avoid it altogether; 'tis I" for one...

I think it's gonna make a come back, and when it's back in fashion you'll be like a total trend setter.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think it's gonna make a come back, and when it's back in fashion you'll be like a total trend setter.

Aye, verily!

I wrote one whole story in a renfaire setting, because it was so much fun to mix renspeak with modernisms;

"Sayest thou, how went the match?" spoke I, after we had parted ways.

"An even heat, forsooth," Bobby mused. "Second base, both of us."

"Methinks I labor under somewhat of a burden," I said. "Wottest thou, the wenches, who turn not a hair at a wink from thee, look somewhat askance when they speak to me and find that the man inside the finery be made of flesh fine as their own. Thine bases were gotten after the damsel ran from me-"

"Yeah, yeah, complain," Bobby sneered. "The bargain was laid out at thine own behest."

"Aye, in my cups."

"Aye, so. Woulds't call it quits?"

"Nay, buddy, not a chance. I ain't even gonna ask for a handicap - Well, look, what sayest thee we part ways to meet again later? I'll stand you to a beer, yonder, in two hour's time."

 

[human_male]

Thanks very much for the comments. What I'm working is actually for a computer game that's set in a fantasy realm (think Lord of the Rings, but without the hobbits). The thing is I want it to be in line with the game that's already out. I had a look at that dialog and there are no contractions, but no oldish terms either. It's just sort of, neutral. But most of the dialog is dramatic monalogues, and my interactions are more chatting with farmers and commoners.

I tried writing some of that with no contractions and it was just silly for a commoner. On the other hand it sounded quite good for a Red Wizard of Thay.

I also think putting a lot of olde English in it would just be distracting for the reader, plus I don't know how to do it correctly. And I definately don't want it to sound like Shakespear.

So rather than impose any rules on myself about contractions, I'm just going to trust my ear and do what sounds right for the particular character, but trying to keep them to a mimimum. And throw in olde sounding words where I can like "over yonder" instead of "over there", and "leave me be" instead of "leave me alone" and "I know not" instead of "I don't know" and "grummet your furrow" instead of "fuck" and the occasional 'tis and 'twas and leave it at that. But definately leaving out anything contemporary like "okay", and "dude where's my car".

Let me know if you have any other thoughts, and thanks again.

Another thing I'm having trouble with is coming up with enough original and cool sounding names. For characters and place names. So if anyone has any suggestions there that'd be much appreciated.

 

[human_male]

Scan a few books by Bernard Cornwell, such as The Archer's Tale and The Last Kingdom. He writes good period novels and these are set in the ninth century.

Yes I read those, I thought they were good. Lot's of battles and dodgy sex. Gallows Thief was the last one I looked at but it wasn't as much fun.

 

[human_male]

Being a frequenter of Ren Faires I would say use 'Olde English' if you are going medieval type but it is not necessary. Contractions were not used by even peasants, they didn't exist back then. There are also all sorts of rules for words, mostly an etiquette thing. 'Thou' is the word for you, however it was used on familiar terms, which means a peasant would not use it when addressing a noble. Then there is 'thy' vs 'thyne', if a word starts with a vowel then you use 'thyne', but if a word starts with a consinent you use 'thy'.

Example: Thyne eyes shine brightly.
Thy mouth is full.

There are also proper conjegation for verbs, depending on which pronoun or noun depends on what you add to the end.

I won't bore you any more, there are so many rules if you truly wish to do dialect in speach and writing. I guess I'm a bit of a nerd, then again I spoke in dialect for rehearsals and shows for 3 months so had to get it right, lol. Feel free to PM me if you have any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer them or just to give you more information.

Thanks. Where did you learn that?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Not "Over yonder" but merely "Yonder'"
"Okay" can be expressed by; "'tis well"
If you do use "thee, thou and thine," remember that they are not interchangeable; "Thee" is the pronoun, when you are addressing someone directly, and "thou" is everything else. "Thou art in a muckle sweat-- what ailest thee?"

 

[MrsDeathlynx]

Sorry the Threadjack, but is it thyne or thine? I always thought it was thine, but I respect your knowledge on this topic - you certainly seem to know more than me about the vagaries of Medieval English

I've usually seen it at thyne, never really seen it as thine. I studied it for 3 or so months as I said, the Renaissance Faire was set in the Elizabethan Era and historically accurate so I had to learn it. It is actually easy once you get the hang of it, but getting the hang of it can be tough.

 

[MrsDeathlynx]

Thanks. Where did you learn that?

I spent 3 months studying it to be in a historically accurate Renaissance Faire set in the Elizabethan Era, was really fun. There are books and tapes and all sorts of things on it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I spent 3 months studying it to be in a historically accurate Renaissance Faire set in the Elizabethan Era, was really fun. There are books and tapes and all sorts of things on it.

Sounds like a blast!

 

[MrsDeathlynx]

Sounds like a blast!

Oh it was, I've always enjoyed medieval, it's one of my favorite time periods. Only bad thing was that I got cast as a washer wench and all because of my breast size, lol. But it allowed me a bit of freedom, got to flirt with all the male nobles and do a bit of teasing. Best was putting a leather rose in my cleavage and bending down a little bit to ask the guys if they wanted to smell my rose.

 

[gauchecritic]

If I can find them I posted a couple of things on 2 threads a long time ago that merely used Yorkshire rather than old English and they seemed to be not stilted but still flavoured. For eg your original post in Yorkshire:

If tha were writing speech set betimes, or more likely a world of fancy, with a flavour of the day, what words would be fit? For a sample would "I'm" as again "I am" bother you (what's the name for putting two words close by like that)? And what about ye old English, 'twas, mayhap, perchance, verily?

I am leant towards writing things out (I am, you are, against I'm and you're) but it's tuneless to my ear if the chap is everyday. It makes him sound learned, and not like ordinary folk.

So what do you choose when you read something like that? Are you bothered as long as foreigners like "okay" are left out?

Thanks.

One of the main things to remember (in my opinion) is that sophisticated language and also topics of conversation would more than likely be not available to anyone, let alone gentry etc. In my view gentry were just thugs with land, they had no difference of education only that they had 'money'. Who today are called nuveau riche. When you get to the royal courts or established titles then things were probably different.

 

[gauchecritic]

Here's one of them...

I'll tell thee once. Ish'll not tell thee again. More than once would be a bore, perhaps not for thee but assuredly for me. I'll tell thee, but I'll whisper. So that if thy doesn't listen, thy'll not here't. but mark me well, I'll tell't thee with my eyes, I'll tell't with my body and if you but watch and listen, closely and without a glance or eyes cast about, you'll hear it every day.

"Every day?" you ask, "Then it must bear repeating."

And I sh'll answer; When I tell it thee, I'll tell it only once. But that once will last until your sight fails. That once will last until your hearing fades. That once will last forever. You have but to see to know that everyday from this time until the end of time "I love thee."

 

[sr71plt]

I'll tell thee once. Ish'll not tell thee again. More than once would be a bore, perhaps not for thee but assuredly for me. I'll tell thee, but I'll whisper. So that if thy doesn't listen, thy'll not here't. but mark me well, I'll tell't thee with my eyes, I'll tell't with my body and if you but watch and listen, closely and without a glance or eyes cast about, you'll hear it every day.

"Every day?" you ask, "Then it must bear repeating."

And I sh'll answer; When I tell it thee, I'll tell it only once. But that once will last until your sight fails. That once will last until your hearing fades. That once will last forever. You have but to see to know that everyday from this time until the end of time "I love thee."

Sorry--getting back to the thread--but if I started reading a whole book written like this, it would go back on the shelf half way through the first page. Once again, successful written works aren't any more totally authentic on dialect or what is true spoken dialogue than staged productions are totally authentic in what they put on stage or the costumes they put their actors in to translate "period" to their audience in terms that they will believe and can absorb comfortably.

 

[MrsDeathlynx]

Dialect is definitely something that's easier to hear than easier to read. But there are ways to get around that and do modern but dialect at the same time. Do not use contractions when speaking, they didn't have those. Make speaking a little more flowery than you normally would. Don't use modern words like "okay" and "whatever". I'm sure there are more but can't think of them right now.

Example of Olde English Florification:
When thyne eyes shed tears and thou doth cry I shall extend my hand and touch thy cheek to gently wipe thy face and make thy tears no more.
When thou doth open thy mouth and raise thy voice to let out a scream I shall take up arms and fight for thyne honor and shall dispose of thy fears.
I took thyne hand into mine so that I may hold thee through all of thy says, all of thy weeks, all of thy months until they may turn into years.
But thou hast my mind, thou hast my heart, thou shalt always have every pieve of my soul which doth mean thou hast all of me.

Original text:
When you cried I'd wipe away all of your tears
When you'd scream I'd fight away all of your fears
I held your hand through all of these years
But you still have
All of me

 

[Stella_Omega]

Sorry--getting back to the thread--but if I started reading a whole book written like this, it would go back on the shelf half way through the first page. Once again, successful written works aren't any more totally authentic on dialect or what is true spoken dialogue than staged productions are totally authentic in what they put on stage or the costumes they put their actors in to translate "period" to their audience in terms that they will believe and can absorb comfortably.

I hope there will be some people who will ignore your advice, because I really enjoy these kinds of books. I would read gauche's book from first to last, if it were a good plot.

Among the novelists that wrote successfully in dialect are Sir Walter Scott, (admittedly a kind of bastardised Scottish dialect) William Morris ( Medieval ) E.R. Eddison (Kinda-sorta Rennassance) One of my alltime favorites is Riddley Walker by Russell Hoban, set in a post-apocalypse Cambridge and Dover.

 

[gauchecritic]

Sorry--getting back to the thread--but if I started reading a whole book written like this, it would go back on the shelf half way through the first page. Once again, successful written works aren't any more totally authentic on dialect or what is true spoken dialogue than staged productions are totally authentic in what they put on stage or the costumes they put their actors in to translate "period" to their audience in terms that they will believe and can absorb comfortably.

yeah well that's obviously not the whole book, that's dialogue.

 

[jayce1066]

This isn't a period piece, but.... a couple of years ago, I picked up a copy of the novel "Filth" by Irvine Welsh. The whole thing is Scottish dialect with a ton of urban slang. Sometimes I had to read sentences out loud & try to figure out what the hell the characters were saying to each other.

 

[WRJames]

My "period pieces" are set in the future -- which makes it even trickier. I worked around this a little bit -- my main characters grow up in isolation watching videos from this time period -- so they speak in idiomatic American slang. Some of the other characters speak English as a second language, and they speak very proper English (as do the "aliens"). I've tried to capture some of the speech patterns of my Russian and Egyptian friends. There are also some talking chimps -- they have a British (maybe more Australian) pattern to their speech.

 

[RedHairedandFriendly]

For the most part the language to me isn't distracting unless it is obvious it doesn't belong there. . .

I read a book that was set in the early 1800's. The writer used words like "Wow" and a line that really annoyed me was "You're such a trooper."

I don't believe either of those belonged in this story and even emailed the author, who emailed me back, telling me that the story in question was the third in a series and she'd been in a hurry to write it, hadn't enjoyed it all that much and admits the language was not all that great. She then pointed me to another writer that paid more attention to the language.