Leftist Corner - Let's Get Revolutionary

[FlowersForFun]

No, I don't do any of that, and that's why I thank fellow *workers* who do it.

You just go into stores and thank the "workers" and they give you goods and services?

Wow....you gotta teach me that some time.

The rest of us have to exchange our goods/services to get other goods and services we can't make for ourselves.

Because I find that usage of "wins" untenable to the point of cartoonishness.

Why's that?

Do you not get the goods and services you want in the exchanges you engage in?

When you buy/barter for something you're getting something you want right??

They get paid (exchange medium) so that they can go get what they want.

It's a voluntary exchange where everyone gets what they want.

How is that not a win win?

 

[Damoiselle]

You, just go into stores and thank the "workers" and they give you goods and services?

Wow....you gotta teach me that some time.

The rest of us have to exchange our goods/services to get other goods and services we can't make for ourselves.




Why's that?

Do you not get the goods and services you want in the exchanges you engage in?

When you buy/barter for something you're getting something you want right??

They get paid (exchange medium) so that they can go get what they want.

It's a voluntary exchange where everyone gets what they want.

How is that not a win win?

I deem that not a "win/win" because I consider homelessness, starvation, and poor quality-of-living to be problems. And because conflating commerce with capitalism is some shady stuff.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

You just go into stores and thank the "workers" and they give you goods and services?

Wow....you gotta teach me that some time.

The rest of us have to exchange our goods/services to get other goods and services we can't make for ourselves.

Nobody taught you how to say thank you? Thank you isn't in lieu of payment, just like payment isn't in lieu of manners.

Apparently nobody taught you what bartering is, either, because that's what you're describing - not capitalism.

You seem to have some serious anger issues. I'm not sure what Damoiselle has done to you other than to exist. It's not her fault that you made a fool of yourself.
I think you're in the wrong thread to find anyone who's going to let themselves get eaten up with your brand of rage. If you persist, you'll just continue to be a source of mild to moderate amusement and occasionally, mild irritation. You're going to be the only one eating themselves up over it.

 

[FlowersForFun]

I deem that not a "win/win" because I consider homelessness, starvation, and poor quality-of-living to be problems.

Homelessness, starvation and poor quality of living are a result of those individuals inability to make good exchanges or in most cases make any exchanges at all.

They don't occur because you make a mutually beneficial exchange with your local cheeseburger stand/truck to get something you yourself cannot produce. That exchange in fact KEEPS the burger crew from being homeless, hungry and having poor quality of life.

And because conflating commerce with capitalism is some shady stuff.

Nothing shady about calling a spade a spade. Capitalism is the primary system of commerce in the world.

Even the CCP had to engage in

Socialism, in theory, is also a system commerce....just one centrally controlled by the collective/state instead of private individuals/groups.

 

[FlowersForFun]

Nobody taught you how to say thank you? Thank you isn't in lieu of payment, just like payment isn't in lieu of manners.

Of course.

Well payment is what I was talking about, manners were not being discussed.

Apparently nobody taught you what bartering is, either, because that's what you're describing - not capitalism.

Capitalism is barter of privately owned/controlled goods and services.

You can add an exchange medium like cash or gold but it's still the same.

What do you think capitalism is??

You seem to have some serious anger issues. I'm not sure what Damoiselle has done to you other than to exist. It's not her fault that you made a fool of yourself.
I think you're in the wrong thread to find anyone who's going to let themselves get eaten up with your brand of rage. If you persist, you'll just continue to be a source of mild to moderate amusement and occasionally, mild irritation. You're going to be the only one eating themselves up over it.

Ascription mode is in overdrive here.....where do you come up with this stuff??

 

[YDB95]

Ohhhh are you one of those lefties who pretends all the mass murdering leftist out there weren't REAL leftist??

Closer to the truth to say people like you just assign the "leftist" label to anyone they don't like.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Of course.

Well payment is what I was talking about, manners were not being discussed.

I refer you to your previous comment:

You just go into stores and thank the "workers" and they give you goods and services?

Wow....you gotta teach me that some time.

The rest of us have to exchange our goods/services to get other goods and services we can't make for ourselves.

Capitalism is barter of privately owned/controlled goods and services.

You can add an exchange medium like cash or gold but it's still the same.

What do you think capitalism is??

No, that's what commerce is. Capitalism is an economic and political construct. Grab a book. Heck, grab a dictionary. Get back to us on that. Barter can be part of a capitalistic system, but it would be virtually impossible for barter to be the primary economic vehicle of it. Of course, that's really beside the point, because the real issue here is the confusion of "commerce" with "capitalism."

Ascription mode is in overdrive here.....where do you come up with this stuff??

That word doesn't mean what you think it means.

 

[Damoiselle]

Homelessness, starvation and poor quality of living are a result of those individuals inability to make good exchanges or in most cases make any exchanges at all.

They don't occur because you make a mutually beneficial exchange with your local cheeseburger stand/truck to get something you yourself cannot produce. That exchange in fact KEEPS the burger crew from being homeless, hungry and having poor quality of life.



Nothing shady about calling a spade a spade. Capitalism is the primary system of commerce in the world.

Even the CCP had to engage in

Socialism, in theory, is also a system commerce....just one centrally controlled by the collective/state instead of private individuals/groups.

So, you're saying that there are different possible forms of commerce, in *addition* to capitalism?

Fascinating.

 

[dan_c00000]

Says the troll feeling threatened even behind the keyboard.

Hogjack is a new screename for someone who got banned because I destroyed him so hard he went full Nazi.

 

[Damoiselle]

Here, comrades, is a lovely opportunity to dunk on neoliberalism and the "PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" doctrine thereof.

In that spirit, I shall repost this video:

"What Was Liberalism? #3 Neoliberalism"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzVf9ce80Nc&t=1s

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Hogjack is a new screename for someone who got banned because I destroyed him so hard he went full Nazi.

He sounds charming.

 

[FlowersForFun]

So, you're saying that there are different possible forms of commerce, in *addition* to capitalism?

Fascinating.

Sure.

They just haven't worked out anywhere near as well as capitalism has.

 

[FlowersForFun]

No, that's what commerce is.

That's not what all the dictionaries and encyclopedias say.

Of course, that's really beside the point, because the real issue here is the confusion of "commerce" with "capitalism."

Why don't you explain to us what the difference between private commerce and capitalism is.

I'd like to see you prove Oxford University, Webstaz and Britannica all wrong.

NOUN
An economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/capitalism

Definition of capitalism
: an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism

Capitalism, also called free market economy or free enterprise economy, economic system, dominant in the Western world since the breakup of feudalism, in which most means of production are privately owned and production is guided and income distributed largely through the operation of markets.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/capitalism

 

[Damoiselle]

Sure.

They just haven't worked out anywhere near as well as capitalism has.

Ah, so with this acknowledgement--that there exist other forms of commerce apart from capitalism--in mind, how would we reconcile that with the previous claim that conflating capitalism and commerce is "calling a spade a spade"?

 

[Damoiselle]

Anarchism time, and how to use it as a philosophical premise on which to compassionately structure a society.


First up: Ten things everyone gets wrong about Anarchists! by Thought Slime

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-8DtU595dQ



Second, V for Vendetta - What is Anarchism | Renegade Cut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFKcxH-JAs8

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

That's not what all the dictionaries and encyclopedias say.




Why don't you explain to us what the difference between private commerce and capitalism is.

I'd like to see you prove Oxford University, Webstaz and Britannica all wrong.


https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/capitalism


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/capitalism


https://www.britannica.com/topic/capitalism

I'm not sure what the source of your confusion is. You posted definitions that are consistent with exactly what i said, i.e. that capitalism is a political and economic system. Commerce is simply buying and selling. That is what the dictionary says. I checked, just in case I somehow got this far in my life without understanding what the word "commerce" meant.

Commerce is an activity. Capitalism is a system in which that activity takes place. Commerce takes place in other systems, too. Trying to equate commerce with capitalism is like trying to equate worship with Catholicism. Worship is the activity, Catholicism is the system. Worship takes place outside of Catholicism, and Catholicism encompasses more than worship. One is a component of the other. Same with commerce and capitalism.

 

[FlowersForFun]

I'm not sure what the source of your confusion is. You posted definitions that are consistent with exactly what i said, i.e. that capitalism is a political and economic system.

Yes, and when you keep reading past "Capitalism is a political and economic system" you find out what the defining characteristics of that system are.

And what are the commerce characteristics of the capitalist economic system??

Private property, exchanges and free or open markets to exchange them on.

Private commerce.

So when you guy buy (exchange/invest) a cheese burger from Bobs Burgers(a private company) or McDiddles (a corporation) you're making a private exchange on a free/open market, a system of commerce otherwise known as "Capitalism".

Commerce is an activity. Capitalism is a system in which that activity takes place.
Commerce takes place in other systems, too.

Yes it is, yes it is and yes it does.

And just as with the various religions, they all have defining characteristics.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

Yes, and when you keep reading past "Capitalism is a political and economic system" you find out what the defining characteristics of that system are.

And what are the commerce characteristics of the capitalist economic system??

Private property, exchanges and free or open markets to exchange them on.

Private commerce.

So when you guy buy (exchange/invest) a cheese burger from Bobs Burgers(a private company) or McDiddles (a corporation) you're making a private exchange on a free/open market, a system of commerce otherwise known as "Capitalism".



Yes it is, yes it is and yes it does.

And just as with the various religions, they all have defining characteristics.

You appear to have forgotten your original arguments. You're mostly paraphrasing things I or someone else said to you in response to your original screed. I'll remind you. You were arguing that buying something was capitalism. (Also, inexplicably, that you don't need to say thank you because you trade you barter your goods and services.)

I think that everyone else here is pretty clear on the meanings of capitalism and commerce. You've been conflating capitalism and commerce, but now you're trying to walk that back by defining them. That's self-defeating. You've now taken a position contrary to your original comments, and you're trying to defend your new position with definitions that had to be pointed out to you. Revisionism is tough when what you said is still posted for all to see.

This is just not going to get any better for you. Why not try a different tack? I'm sure if you do a little research, you can come back with something a little more complex for debate. This whole capitalism/commerce stuff is about as basic as you can get. I have confidence that you can stretch yourself a little further.

 

[Damoiselle]

You appear to have forgotten your original arguments. You're mostly paraphrasing things I or someone else said to you in response to your original screed. I'll remind you. You were arguing that buying something was capitalism. (Also, inexplicably, that you don't need to say thank you because you trade you barter your goods and services.)

I think that everyone else here is pretty clear on the meanings of capitalism and commerce. You've been conflating capitalism and commerce, but now you're trying to walk that back by defining them. That's self-defeating. You've now taken a position contrary to your original comments, and you're trying to defend your new position with definitions that had to be pointed out to you. Revisionism is tough when what you said is still posted for all to see.

This is just not going to get any better for you. Why not try a different tack? I'm sure if you do a little research, you can come back with something a little more complex for debate. This whole capitalism/commerce stuff is about as basic as you can get. I have confidence that you can stretch yourself a little further.

Ah, but that wasn't even all. First they suggested that I ought to thank capitalism for the act of placing meet and cheese between pieces of bread. When I responded that I don't thank capitalism, I thank workers, they spent about a paragraph suggesting that this somehow implied a delusion that I do all the work myself.

When I repeated that I thank workers for what they do, they then pulled out the idea that I do so *in absence* of payment.

All of this scurrying around before we finally reached their point that homelessness and starvation comes down to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

All of this scurrying around before we finally reached their point that homelessness and starvation comes down to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

If only all the people who starve or are homeless were aware of the immense power they wield to change society and remove the barriers to equality... I can't imagine why homeless people have a hard time getting out of the situation they're in. I mean, there are the medical conditions so many suffer, there's the inability to dress nicely for a job interview, there's often the lack of job interview skills or education, there's the lack of transportation or money for transportation, there's the fact that it takes so much time and energy on a daily basis just to survive, and well, all that other stuff. But besides that, I don't know why they haven't gotten themselves jobs that still wouldn't pay enough for them to get off the street. Heck, if they just got themselves a job at MickeyD's, they could work their way up to become captains of industry, right? If only they took responsibility.

 

[Damoiselle]

If only all the people who starve or are homeless were aware of the immense power they wield to change society and remove the barriers to equality... I can't imagine why homeless people have a hard time getting out of the situation they're in. I mean, there are the medical conditions so many suffer, there's the inability to dress nicely for a job interview, there's often the lack of job interview skills or education, there's the lack of transportation or money for transportation, there's the fact that it takes so much time and energy on a daily basis just to survive, and well, all that other stuff. But besides that, I don't know why they haven't gotten themselves jobs that still wouldn't pay enough for them to get off the street. Heck, if they just got themselves a job at MickeyD's, they could work their way up to become captains of industry, right? If only they took responsibility.

Grab ahold of those bootstraps and pull, and when you find this only makes your body crumple in on itself, well don't worry...We have plenty of doctors who don't take your insurance.

 

[Damoiselle]

Fantastic new video from Philosophy Tube on Anti-Semitism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAFbpWVO-ow&feature=push-u-sub&attr_tag=sCmQ11UQ9XbjwmJp:6

 

[FlowersForFun]

You appear to have forgotten your original arguments. You're mostly paraphrasing things I or someone else said to you in response to your original screed. I'll remind you. You were arguing that buying something was capitalism.

No I wasn't, I argued that buying something from a private individual or a corporation is capitalism, because it is.

You keep doing all you can to ignore the defining characteristics of capitalism for some bizarre reason.....maybe to keep it some nebulous boogieman?? Maybe you need to deny your whole hearted participation in that type of commerce and all the awesome 1st world things it's brought to your life???

It's not nebulous, it has a definition, and you're free to continue ignoring it but that won't make it go away.

I think that everyone else here is pretty clear on the meanings of capitalism and commerce. You've been conflating capitalism and commerce,

No I have not. I've been very specific about what kind of commerce capitalism is.

Private commerce is capitalism. Definatively so.

but now you're trying to walk that back by defining them.

That's supporting my position with academic references, not walking anything back.

Now if you can point out where Oxford University, Websters, Encyclopedia Brittanica and I are all wrong about what capitalism is, by all means.

Otherwise just admit you can't refute the academic references and myself as to what capitalism is.

Ah, but that wasn't even all. First they suggested that I ought to thank capitalism for the act of placing meet and cheese between pieces of bread.

Are they not a private enterprise you're making an exchange with? Is that exchange not what gets you your cheeseburger???

Or are "the workers" magicing it to you for a "thank you"???

All of this scurrying around before we finally reached their point that homelessness and starvation comes down to PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Yea....100% unavoidable reality.

 

[Damoiselle]

No I wasn't, I argued that buying something from a private individual or a corporation is capitalism, because it is.

You keep doing all you can to ignore the defining characteristics of capitalism for some bizarre reason.....maybe to keep it some nebulous boogieman?? Maybe you need to deny your whole hearted participation in that type of commerce and all the awesome 1st world things it's brought to your life???

It's not nebulous, it has a definition, and you're free to continue ignoring it but that won't make it go away.



No I have not. I've been very specific about what kind of commerce capitalism is.

Private commerce is capitalism. Definatively so.

Now if you can point out where Oxford University, Websters, Encyclopedia Brittanica and I are all wrong about that, by all means.

Otherwise just admit you can't refute the academic references and myself as to what capitalism is.



Are they not a private enterprise you're making an exchange with? Is that exchange not what gets you your cheeseburger???

Or are "the workers" magicing it to you for a "thank you"???



Yea....100% unavoidable reality.

The worker is getting me the cheeseburger, and no, they don't have to use magic to do it.

 

[FlowersForFun]

The worker is getting me the cheeseburger, and no, they don't have to use magic to do it.

No, they are not, the corporation and it's supply chain are.

The worker is just part of that team you interact with.

And what do they give you that burger in exchange for then? MONEY right???

That's private commerce.......capitalism, is it not??