Linguistic consistency

[Kumquatqueen]

Forsooth, I doth not speaketh liketh Shakespeare 'r Milton, but a modern confection. Verily common argot cannot beest setteth in aspic. Such eff'rts art the trifles of knaves and simpletons straining liketh Canute afore the waves.

QV L'Académie Francaise

Even Shakespeare didn't write like Shakespeare at the end of his career, by which time he was writing 'you' rather than 'thee' or 'thou', ending verbs with -s rather than -eth, etc.

 

[KeithD]

I write dialog, but also epilogue. Epilog seems just weird. I also write catalog and monologue. How can I be sane and use both monologue and dialog? It’s the same fucking idea.

Am I just totally fucked up? Or is this a technology thing?

Please note that any Brits being patronizing will be subjected to scorn and maybe corporal punishment. Or the other way round.

Emily

Merriam-Webster's identifies "dialogue" as the preferred spelling.

For help in spelling preferences (in U.S. style) and how to make the best use of a dictionary, see https://www.literotica.com/s/dictionary-smarts-can-up-ratings

 

[Writer61]

Since we're all grammaring, it took me a moment to get past the lack of quotations. Why would the fact that you write epilogues affect the way you write dialogue? Is there dialogue in your epilogues? Are people monologuing whilst dialoguing? That seems rude.

Ask an ideologue?

 

[Writer61]

Even Shakespeare didn't write like Shakespeare at the end of his career, by which time he was writing 'you' rather than 'thee' or 'thou', ending verbs with -s rather than -eth, etc.

A great illustration of the point.

 

[SimonDoom]

This thread brings to mind Will Rogers' famous quote, "I am not a member of any organized party -- I am a Democrat."

I don't speak or write any logical or sensible language. I speak and write in English.

 

[KeithD]

While we're on word usage, note that "youth" is singular. When you've got two or more of them, they are "youths," not "youth."

 

[StillStunned]

While we're on word usage, note that "youth" is singular. When you've got two or more of them, they are "youths," not "youth."

As long as they stay off my lawn!

 

[Kumquatqueen]

While we're on word usage, note that "youth" is singular. When you've got two or more of them, they are "youths," not "youth."

Two or more individuals, sure. But it's also a mass noun - "the youth of today" isn't just one particularly annoying kid, nor are they the one considered when we have to appeal to the youth!

 

[lustychimera]

American English, for the most part, is all about phonetics. British English loves to keep the spelling of whatever language they borrowed the word from. Personally, I'm on the side of phonetics. English is nonsensical enough.

 

[KeithD]

Two or more individuals, sure. But it's also a mass noun - "the youth of today" isn't just one particularly annoying kid, nor are they the one considered when we have to appeal to the youth!

Umm, no, I don't think so. That's only legitimate in the context of being singular, like "the boy of today" or "the girl of today." It is, in fact, alluding to a typical/average/representative singular person.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

Umm, no, I don't think so. That's only legitimate in the context of being singular, like "the boy of today" or "the girl of today." It is, in fact, alluding to a typical/average/representative singular person.

I recall there's a cross-Atlantic difference in certain nouns and whether they are singular or plural.

Wiki:
In British English (BrE), collective nouns can take either singular (formal agreement) or plural (notional agreement) verb forms, according to whether the emphasis is on the body as a whole or on the individual members respectively; compare a committee was appointed with the committee were unable to agree.[1]: 23 [2] The term the Government always takes a plural verb in British civil service convention, perhaps to emphasise the principle of cabinet collective responsibility.[3] Compare also the following lines of Elvis Costello's song "Oliver's Army": Oliver's Army is here to stay / Oliver's Army are on their way . Some of these nouns, for example staff,[1]: 24  actually combine with plural verbs most of the time.

In American English (AmE), collective nouns are almost always singular in construction: the committee was unable to agree. However, when a speaker wishes to emphasize that the individuals are acting separately, a plural pronoun may be employed with a singular or plural verb: the team takes their seats, rather than the team takes its seats.

To me, 'the committee was unable to agree' sounds deeply weird! But "God, here come the youth, invading," or "what do the youth of today think?" sound perfectly normal.

 

[KeithD]

I recall there's a cross-Atlantic difference in certain nouns and whether they are singular or plural.

Yes. "Staff" can be (and probably usually is) plural in British English. It isn't in American English.

But what you cite for American English in "committee" and "team" isn't really acceptable. "Members" need to be inserted in those constructions to make them correct in American English unless the vote/action truly was unanimous. (in my early editorial days changing Briticism into Americanese in news reports for U.S. policymakers--like adjusting the "tabled" difference in legislation--adding the "members" was one of the things I continually had to do, especially to "staff.") It's true that writers ignore this and get away with it, but that takes us back to my "youth" observation. American writers ignore that "youth" isn't plural in the U.S. style all the time and get away with it, even though it isn't fully correct. Going to the top, by American usage "dialog" isn't correct either, but business English has made that ignorable.

And then we have less/few being butchered all the time in TV commercials.

 

[alohadave]

While we're on word usage, note that "youth" is singular. When you've got two or more of them, they are "youths," not "youth."

The plural of youth is youts.

 

[alohadave]

American English, for the most part, is all about phonetics. British English loves to keep the spelling of whatever language they borrowed the word from. Personally, I'm on the side of phonetics. English is nonsensical enough.

Except when they add 'u' to random Germanic words that never had them.

English doesn't win any awards for phonetics because the spelling of many words were not updated after the Great Vowel Shift. If the printing press had been invented 100 years later, then I think that English would definitely be more phonetic.

 

[lustychimera]

Except when they add 'u' to random Germanic words that never had them.

English doesn't win any awards for phonetics because the spelling of many words were not updated after the Great Vowel Shift. If the printing press had been invented 100 years later, then I think that English would definitely be more phonetic.

The Great Vowel Shift. I thought you were just taking the piss. That's a legit thing. Good info and a great rabbit hole to go down!

 

[StillStunned]

The Great Vowel Shift. I thought you were just taking the piss. That's a legit thing. Good info and a great rabbit hole to go down!

The GVS takes me back to first year at uni, and having to learn to pronounce English phonetically. It's not too bad if you speak any Continental Germanic language, and once you get going it's great fun. Chaucer with the pre-GVS pronunciation sounds like a story told down the pub instead of "literature".

 

[alohadave]

It's true that writers ignore this and get away with it, but that takes us back to my "youth" observation. American writers ignore that "youth" isn't plural in the U.S. style all the time and get away with it, even though it isn't fully correct.

It's not that they get away with it, the usage shifts as people use it that way.

For when you learned the rules, it was the correct usage, but people have a habit of deciding what is correct for themselves.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

It's not that they get away with it, the usage shifts as people use it that way.

For when you learned the rules, it was the correct usage, but people have a habit of deciding what is correct for themselves.

Wilfred Owen's Anthem for Doomed Youth is definitely using it to refer to youth en masse: What passing-bells for these who die as cattle? Over 100 years ago, now.

 

[Britva415]

I do a lot of IT adjacent stuff as product owner of one of our systems. Both dialog and catalog come up frequently and are spelled like that.

That is a bit of a special case - referring to computational interface objects and structures. I honestly can't think of any other contexts where the 'ue' would be out of place.

 

[EmilyMiller]

That is a bit of a special case - referring to computational interface objects and structures. I honestly can't think of any other contexts where the 'ue' would be out of place.

It’s just my habit. I see others here use dialog as well. Maybe a generational thing.

 

[Britva415]

With regard to "youth," the construction you're looking for is "collective (or uncountable) noun." It's separate from singular and plural. And it has been used as a collective noun for "youths" since the 1200's, according to Oxford English Dictionary.

 

[alohadave]

That is a bit of a special case - referring to computational interface objects and structures. I honestly can't think of any other contexts where the 'ue' would be out of place.

Catalog seems to be the default usage in the US IME. If I see catalogue, I assume the writer is from the UK.

 

[Britva415]

Catalog seems to be the default usage in the US IME. If I see catalogue, I assume the writer is from the UK.

I agree that it's probably default, but 'ue' isn't perceived as wrong.

 

[OffNSFW]

Then I have so many and varied transatlantic connections, that I sometimes have to think hard about whether its SKEDule or SHEDule.

Emily

SHEDule will never not make me think of Dracula: Dead and Loving It. Which is, of course, why I pronounce it that way.

 

[VallesMarineris]

This all reminds of that famous line: "Britain and America are two countries separated by the same language."