London carbombs......

[Flagg]

I'm certainly not defending the terrorist acts but there was indeed a motive (albeit a pretty sick one) behind the recent BBC bomb. It is beleived that it was carried out by the Real IRA after the airing of an episode of Panorama (BBC Documetary Program) in which they publicly named those involved in the Omagh bombing a few years ago. So it was in effect an act of revenge.

I wouldn't agree that we all have to live in fear of our lives now that the Real IRA are making signs of breaking the ceasefire. I lived in Belfast itself for 8 years as a child and in contrast to public belief it really wasn't a scary place to live in at all. You sort of get used to there being soldiers with guns on the streets and not being able to go to classes on a certain side of the school because of a bomb alert. In those eight years I did not witness a single act of violence or terrorism despite spending most of my time there in the city centre. So to say that living in the UK is all of a sudden a dangerous existence is a bit over the top.

Roger - You're only too right about US cash-injection to the IRA by poor naive souls. There are a couple of them that post on this board in fact. {{shudder}}

 

[Cheyenne]

Roger - You're only too right about US cash-injection to the IRA by poor naive souls. There are a couple of them that post on this board in fact. {{shudder}}

Now how would you know that? You blame U.S. people on this board for supporting bombs in your country? Where's the little winking smilie face that shows you're joking?

 

[Flagg]

I'm certainly not blaming the US for the bombing. I blame the English for the bombing in Belfast and London, just as I blame the English for a lot of the post-colonial tragedy that's going on in the world.

I'm afraid its true, there are a few people on this board that are IRA sympathisers and funders. I'm not going to start naming them. I'm sure they'll come out of the woodwork themselves - they're so proud of themselves don't you know.

P.S. You should know me by now Cheyenne - why use a wink smilie when omitting one can cause such delighful confusion and outrage

 

[Ally C]

I'm certainly not defending the terrorist acts but there was indeed a motive (albeit a pretty sick one) behind the recent BBC bomb. It is beleived that it was carried out by the Real IRA after the airing of an episode of Panorama (BBC Documetary Program) in which they publicly named those involved in the Omagh bombing a few years ago. So it was in effect an act of revenge.

But only 'in effect'. Most countries publicise (i.e. 'name') the perpretators of any sort of criminal activity. For example, those released from prisons in Northern Ireland as part of the 'Good Friday' agreement were all 'known' to their respective local communities and (obviously) the security forces. Those named in the BBC programme about Omagh will be similarly well known by the security forces - and the communities they hail from. The only point I am unsure of (as I never saw the programme) is whether it could be proven that those named were in fact guilty. For any who were, I think naming them was totally justified.

This is getting a bit complicated: if the bombing of the BBC was 'in effect an act of revenge', WTF was Omagh??? Without going into the history of it all; yes - the whole affair may seem exaggerated - certainly if you have first hand experience of Northern Ireland which suggests otherwise. I don't have the benefit of such experience, only a healthy disdain for any terrorist act.

 

[OUTSIDER]

It's strange but I only feel nervous when I'm in the city, maybe because thats where historicaly most of the bombs have been set off, and for thoes who maybe thinking twice about coming to London don't sweat it too much, because from what I've seen on the tv news lately your in more danger of being shot by a fellow worker or student than of being hurt by a bomb in the UK...this whole lets school shooting spree thing seems to be getting way out of hand over in the US at the moment and I feel real sorrow for the parents of all thoes killed in that school.

[Edited by OUTSIDER on 03-06-2001 at 12:16 PM]

 

[alexander tzara]

I'm certainly not blaming the US for the bombing. I blame the English for the bombing in Belfast and London, just as I blame the English for a lot of the post-colonial tragedy that's going on in the world.

You're making some good points, Flagg, but it seems just as silly blaming "the English" for IRA or UDA terrorist acts as it does blaming "the US", or "the Irish". You can't hold a whole nationality responsible for the acts of certain individuals or for the sins of previous generations. What would people think if Native Americans started bombing major American cities today, because of the brutality their ancestors were dealt by the European settlers? Israelis don't hold modern day Germans responsible for Nazi attrocities during World War II. They seek out the actual war criminals themselves.

I'm proud of being Scottish. I'm proud of Scottish achievements - inventors, writers, all the rest. I'm glad we now have our own parliament. But I'm also aware of many of the faults the Scottish tend to have. One of them is the great big chip we have on our shoulder about "the English", and things that happened hundreds of years ago. Call it the 'Braveheart Complex' if you like. It's all tied in with the romantic image of Scotland as savage underdogs with hearts of gold, fighting their evil oppressors. But it's just victim mentality, when you think about it. People who've suffered terrible childhoods can be crippled by the victim mentality - becoming stuck in the past instead of taking control of their own destinies and moving forward. The Scottish tend to be like that. It's not a good thing. It holds us back.

The Irish troubles are fuelled by the same victim mentality: people refusing to let go of the past and just move forward.

I love a lot of things about Ireland, both north and south: the humour, great literature (James Joyce, WB Yeats, Samuel Beckett), celtic legends and mythology but I hate the romanticising of Ireland as much as I hate the romanticising of Scotland. I prefer reality to sugar-coated fairy tales.
The American individuals who help fund Irish terrorist organisations do so because they've bought into the mythology of romantic Ireland. Joining in this "just cause" gives them a stronger sense of identity, makes them feel like "good Irish Americans". It's a pity this romanticising of a country they probably haven't even visited leads to random death and dismemberment. In multi-ethnic London, a car bomb is just as likely to blow up someone whose family originate in Jamaica, mainland Europe, the Soviet Block or an Eastern country as it is a descendent of Oliver Cromwell's army.

[Edited by alexander tzara on 03-06-2001 at 03:44 PM]

 

[genderbender]

...I don't think it's very helpful - and certainly not an example of 'profound spiritual practice' - to casually use cliches - certainly not when dealing with a specific case. Emotions tend to run higher when such events take place closer to home. Thankfully I haven't had to deal with terrorism and its effects, but I do feel anger ... and hatred can often be the next instinctive emotional response.

You speak with care about a complex subject and I respect that. But I fear you mischaracterize both the intention of my contribution and the words you've chosen to quote above. Of course, these are complex issues with roots running deep. And certainly powerful emotions are evoked on every side of the issue. My comments were intended to encourage stepping back from the heat of the moment, to recognize the almost archetypal forces at play in these situations. And learning to open one's heart is not a cliche, nor without value in this consideration. It is precisely the anidote which will most likely make a difference. We aren't that different from one another that blowing the other person up is the answer. Opening one's heart is finding our common humanity and learning empathy. I'm not naive enough to believe that this will happen in every conflict or for every person. But I'd rather counsel kindness than yield the ground to any natural theory that says anger needs to happen and hatred is necessarily close behind. I think we're capable of more as human beings and I will always lean in the direction of open heartedness.

 

[Flagg]

You're making some good points, Flagg, but it seems just as silly blaming "the English" for IRA or UDA terrorist acts as it does blaming "the US", or "the Irish". You can't hold a whole nationality responsible for the acts of certain individuals or for the sins of previous generations.

I completely agree with you there. Of course, a "nationality" can not be blamed for anything and of course the people being killed and maimed had nothing to do with the atrocities of their ancestors. But, the fact still remains that a nation should be held accountable for its history.

Take the Middle East for example. Its a complete fucking mess as we all know and it would appear to your average layman that its really just a load of silly arabs and jews fighting over petty religious significances. Should we really forget who created those borders and cultural clashes? I don't think we should and I think we should use that guilt to motivate our aid in areas such as these.

 

[Ally C]

Genderbender ...

The cliche I was referring to was the 'all's fair in love and war' from earlier (by someone else). I certainly wasn't referring to what you had to say as cliche ... just combining various strands of this thread so far. Apologies if it seemed like I was attacking what you had to say: far from it, I was trying to use your words to help the point I was making. Hope you don't mind?

 

[genderbender]

Ally C...

The cliche I was referring to was the 'all's fair in love and war' from earlier (by someone else). I certainly wasn't referring to what you had to say as cliche ... just combining various strands of this thread so far. Apologies if it seemed like I was attacking what you had to say: far from it, I was trying to use your words to help the point I was making. Hope you don't mind?

Thanks for the clarification, and no apologies necessary for quoting my comments. I note the time you posted your response and can't help but wonder whether you're an insomniac or live in a faraway time zone. Are you perchance from the British Isles? You don't list a location.

Take the Middle East for example. Its a complete fucking mess as we all know and it would appear to your average layman that its really just a load of silly arabs and jews fighting over petty religious significances. Should we really forget who created those borders and cultural clashes? I don't think we should and I think we should use that guilt to motivate our aid in areas such as these.

This is off point, but definitely worthy of discussion, whether here or elsewhere. It is also one of those monstrously controversial subjects which generally produce more heat that light when talked about. I'll say simply that the situation in the Middle East could greatly benefit from voices of those with a bit more balance than the United States had been able to bring to bear. It's true that Britain, after years of doing battle with Jewish settlers in what was then Palestine, accommodated Zionist forces during the final days of their mandate, and did much to create conditions leading to ethnic cleansing of Arabs immediately following the transition. It seems everyone was so embarassed over their shoddy treatment of Jews before and during World War II, that they were prepared to turn a blind eye when Zionists perpetrated only marginally less severe abuse on the Arabs who'd live in Palestine for a thousand years. Suddenly, the right of return meant more than human rights, and Europeans and Americans stood with their hands in their pockets while the atrocities continued. It is a mess, and a tragedy. How it will come to an end we won't know for a long while I'm afraid. Perhaps in our grandchildren's lifetime.

 

[Ally C]

Re: Ally C...

Thanks for the clarification, and no apologies necessary for quoting my comments. I note the time you posted your response and can't help but wonder whether you're an insomniac or live in a faraway time zone. Are you perchance from the British Isles? You don't list a location.

Yes I am genderbender. I updated my profile, but it hasn't appeared yet. Think I'll try again ...

 

[masterstern]

Smal minded fools

Just finished reading the comments posted regarding the London bombing and the Northern Ireland situation. Speaking as a resident of Ulster, I can truely say I was more than glad to see the ceasefire and begining of the peace process. I am rememeber what it was like to grow up during the hight of the troubles, when you could not be sure what bar, restaurant, leisure centre, school, church or business would be blown up. Everyday people going about their business, while a minority on both sides of the communtity murdered and injured anyone who got in their way.

Just as Alexander Tzara pointed out now that the ceasefire is begining to show signs of success, these sectarian bigots will do anything to make it fail. As people move towards a paceful resolution, these thugs are lossing their political funding (cash-injections from misguided supports in America). Therefore they are either turning to mainstream crime or forming slinter groups like the Real IRA.

I have to agree with Siren when she said "no matter what the cause is...using terrorism to get the point across is never right." As for Wilfire I don't know what he believes is a "by product of the Bristish system". If he needs clarification I can tell him that, the people of Northern Ireland are Irish regardless if they are Unionist or Republican.

As for his closing statements "alls fair in love and war", it is quite clear that he has never been force to suffer or watch others suffer due to confict. Northern Ireland has waited a long time for the chance of peace, without letting small minded fools ruin it!

 

[genderbender]

Good Going Folks!

Once again I'm so impressed with the quality of dialogue at this site. Clearly there are differences of opinion being expressed but hearing from people livng through this nightmare, as well as people who simply care about what's happening, is wonderful. Thank you all for your contributions!