Need another opinion

[Codoc24]

I am writing a novel and one of my beta readers said she thought I have one story arc that is CLOSE to queerbating. (To be honest, I had to Google that to see what it was) I would like others' opinions to see what you think. Below is a rough synopsis of the part the beta reader was talking about. I have left out a lot of details but I think this should be enough for everyone.

The story is sci-fi and mostly takes place on a planet far away from Earth. There is only one city with a population of around 150k on the planet. Mostly humans but there is a small minority from another planet. They are pretty similar to humans but a very small percentage of the aliens have a few mystical powers. They have been given the nickname, the Royals, because they are so revered. One "power" is not really a "power" but they have an innate, strong sexual appeal to humans of both sexes. It's not like it is so strong humans can't resist them, but male and female humans can be drawn to either sex of the Royals. My story has a love triangle. A human female, a human male, and a Royal female. This is futuristic, prostitution is legal and the prostitutes are not treated like outcasts. The Royal is working as a prostitute. The human male has been a client of hers a few times and is very fond of her. I won't say he is in love though. He works with the human female and he is very fond of her as well. Both females are attracted to the human male. All three know about each other. But the two females are sort of enemies because they don't want to share the male. The male goes off to another planet and is believed to be killed. Both females are devastated. Even though they dislike each other, over several weeks, they put aside their differences and console/comfort each other for their loss and become friends. Another "power" the Royal has is she can help people with their mental issues (i.e., depression) so the human female becomes like an addict and goes to the Royal more and more to relieve her depression. Though the Royal is uneasy as she feels like she has become a supplier for her addiction. As a result, they become even closer. Even though they are straight (ignoring that the prostitute goes to bed with women for pay) sharing their misery over the death of the male, they eventually become lovers.

(spoiler alert - it turns out the male is not dead after all, he was stranded in a disabled spaceship and it took a long time for him to return. When he returns, everyone is happy with an HFN ending.)

So does anybody else think this is queerbating?

Thanks so much for your time and providing feedback!

 

[Lifestyle66]

I am writing a novel and one of my beta readers said she thought I have one story arc that is CLOSE to queerbating. (To be honest, I had to Google that to see what it was) I would like others' opinions to see what you think. Below is a rough synopsis of the part the beta reader was talking about. I have left out a lot of details but I think this should be enough for everyone.

The story is sci-fi and mostly takes place on a planet far away from Earth. There is only one city with a population of around 150k on the planet. Mostly humans but there is a small minority from another planet. They are pretty similar to humans but a very small percentage of the aliens have a few mystical powers. They have been given the nickname, the Royals, because they are so revered. One "power" is not really a "power" but they have an innate, strong sexual appeal to humans of both sexes. It's not like it is so strong humans can't resist them, but male and female humans can be drawn to either sex of the Royals. My story has a love triangle. A human female, a human male, and a Royal female. This is futuristic, prostitution is legal and the prostitutes are not treated like outcasts. The Royal is working as a prostitute. The human male has been a client of hers a few times and is very fond of her. I won't say he is in love though. He works with the human female and he is very fond of her as well. Both females are attracted to the human male. All three know about each other. But the two females are sort of enemies because they don't want to share the male. The male goes off to another planet and is believed to be killed. Both females are devastated. Even though they dislike each other, over several weeks, they put aside their differences and console/comfort each other for their loss and become friends. Another "power" the Royal has is she can help people with their mental issues (i.e., depression) so the human female becomes like an addict and goes to the Royal more and more to relieve her depression. Though the Royal is uneasy as she feels like she has become a supplier for her addiction. As a result, they become even closer. Even though they are straight (ignoring that the prostitute goes to bed with women for pay) sharing their misery over the death of the male, they eventually become lovers.

(spoiler alert - it turns out the male is not dead after all, he was stranded in a disabled spaceship and it took a long time for him to return. When he returns, everyone is happy with an HFN ending.)

So does anybody else think this is queerbating?

Thanks so much for your time and providing feedback!

It doesn't matter who you ask to beta-read your story, their opinion will be shaped based on what they WANT to read. Your story won't appeal to someone who has different desires or different reactions to the stories you like.

My stories don't appeal to my wife when she reads them, but I get 5s from various readers.

Some readers will criticize my stories as "femdom" while others will criticize the same story as "misogynist"!

So, take any critique with "a grain of salt" in that the one giving the criticism may have DRASTIALLY different wants and needs than you do.

Write what you want to write, and don't take all criticism as objective, or you'll drive yourself crazy,

 

[TheRedChamber]

I wanted to make sure I was absolutely clear about what we were talking about here, so I looked up a definition first. This is from Grindr, and I assume they know what they are talking about:

Queerbaiting (sometimes called “gay-baiting”) refers to a marketing technique in media where creators hint at queer relationships or characters. They do it to gain an LGBTQ and ally audience without alienating their straight viewership.

Usually, all it takes is writing with just enough subtext and ambiguity to suggest a queer storyline or context. It might hint at suggestive interactions like a flirty male friendship (ahem, ahem, Challengers), teasing in marketing such as suggestive promotional materials (we’re lookin’ at you, Abercrombie & Fitch), or false Easter eggs (like dialogue that can be interpreted as — but isn’t necessarily — gay).

But here’s the catch: Creators never give substantial representation or explicit confirmation that a character or scenario is actually queer. In other words, a cocktease.

From your synopsis, it seems like the queerbating could occur in one of two ways.

Lesbian queerbating - but this doesn't quite make sense because the two women do become lovers at the end. Unless the issue is they both go back to the man and 'being straight' in the end.

Gay queerbating - Is the fact that you're highlighting that nominally straight human males can be attracted to male Royals but then never doing anything with it a form of queerbating. You have three main characters who are M F F so the reader shouldn't be expecting gay action, unless you're telling the tale in a way that suggests that the male MC is likely to meet and fall for a male Royal.

One rule I have with beta-readers is that I do try to spend some time considering their suggestions/objections/gut feelings. I don't necessarily go with what they suggest, but I do try to think over why they have said what they have said and what the knock on effect of changing the story to try and please them wouldl be.

Another rule of beta-reading is that when a reader says 'I was bored' or 'I was confused' you can't argue with that, only accept it. If you're reader is saying 'I was expecting gay action' then that might be a sign that the promises you're making as part of the set up are leading the reader down the wrong garden path.

It's often good for these types of stories to have at least two beta readers. If you give it to #2 specifically not mentioning #1 issues and they come up with some kind of similar criticsm, it's a good sign that something might be off in the story.

Ultimately if the story is finished and if there is no obvious 'quick fix' you may as well just release it, see what the reaction is and if it happens that your BR was spot on the money, just take it as a lesson for next time.

 

[RejectReality]

The only thing I would worry about is ( as mentioned above ) it reads as if it's chugging along toward a Lesbian Ever After ending, and you throw a curve where it's back to the old status quo as soon as he shows back up. That doesn't really make sense anyway. You're just throwing all the development out the window and voiding your resolution of the initial conflict if you do that. All three of them together is the HEA that ties up everything in a perfect bow from the synopsis given.

Sounds like your beta reader wanted you to have them reject the man when he shows back up.

 

[TheLobster]

Sounds like your beta reader wanted you to have them reject the man when he shows back up.

Based on the synopsis given, I don’t see how that’s a reasonable expectation. Even if the human FMC got over her crush on MMC and chose the alien FMC instead, there is no indication that the alien FMC is no longer interested in MMC as well. It would seem like readers wished she wasn’t but is there a good reason to believe that?

If not, then the whole “It’s queerbaiting!” angle sounds to me like complaining that the story doesn’t conform to someone’s hastily constructed head canon about its characters (which just so happens to conveniently mirror currently popular politics because of course it does).

 

[RejectReality]

Based on the synopsis given, I don’t see how that’s a reasonable expectation. Even if the human FMC got over her crush on MMC and chose the alien FMC instead, there is no indication that the alien FMC is no longer interested in MMC as well. It would seem like readers wished she wasn’t but is there a good reason to believe that?

If not, then the whole “It’s queerbaiting!” angle sounds to me like complaining that the story doesn’t conform to someone’s hastily constructed head canon about its characters (which just so happens to conveniently mirror currently popular politics because of course it does).

I didn't say it was reasonable. LOL That's just the only way ( absent one or both of the women abandoning that relationship the moment Mr. Magic Cock shows back up ) I can fathom anyone thinking this had even the faintest whiff of queerbaiting.

Well, that and excluding bisexual as within the domain of queer, which isn't unheard of.

 

[Comshaw]

My question is how many of the "queer bating" comments did you get? One or two, or many? I was told a long time ago by a creative writing instructor who was also an author that if you get many comments on your work that say the same thing, then pay attention because you have a problem in that area. But if you get a lot of comments but they all address different things then you are on the right track.

After reading your synopsis of the story I do not believe it's queer bating. Firstly, the story revolves around two humans and an alien. Does the alien even have a concept of gay as humans see it? Secondly, it appears to me that the human female didn't discover she was gay (which is the basis of the queer bating complaint), but instead realized she was bi-sexual. If that's what she had discovered about herself, then there was no queer bating.

Thirdly, screw em' if they don't like it. As the author, you have control of the story and characters. If it feels like the tale needs to go in a particular direction, take it there and let the complainers complain.

All that said, I hope it turns out well for you.


Comshaw

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I don't see it as queerbaiting.
The concept of people bonding over shared grief is a pretty established theme. As long as there is a logical reason for them to be friends and the reason for them to have not gotten along was the jealousy/competition over the man in question.
I've seen several girls get rather hostile towards each other because they were both interested in the same boy and then become friends once that issue resolved itself.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

I vote not queerbaiting
But I wouldn't necessarily discard the criticism either. You characterized your story as "HFN" - I'm assuming that means that the story is resolved and everyone is happy with the end state.
So, not knowing anything about how your story ends, I would dig more deeply into why your b reader thought it was queerbaiting - maybe something else that irked them. Could the resolution to the "enemies to lovers via shared tragedy" plot be developed more thoroughly? Did the return of the mmc leave something unresolved bteween the fmc and the... Rmc? (There should be a resolution, even if it's 'happy for now')

Depending on their experience, Beta readers are sometimes liable to misinterpreting or misarticulating their own emotional reactions to a draft but their radars are generally pretty good... In this case, I doubt it's queerbaiting, but something might be off.
Of course it's completely possible that they're way off the mark.

 

[Codoc24]

I wanted to make sure I was absolutely clear about what we were talking about here, so I looked up a definition first. This is from Grindr, and I assume they know what they are talking about:



From your synopsis, it seems like the queerbating could occur in one of two ways.

Lesbian queerbating - but this doesn't quite make sense because the two women do become lovers at the end. Unless the issue is they both go back to the man and 'being straight' in the end.

Gay queerbating - Is the fact that you're highlighting that nominally straight human males can be attracted to male Royals but then never doing anything with it a form of queerbating. You have three main characters who are M F F so the reader shouldn't be expecting gay action, unless you're telling the tale in a way that suggests that the male MC is likely to meet and fall for a male Royal.

One rule I have with beta-readers is that I do try to spend some time considering their suggestions/objections/gut feelings. I don't necessarily go with what they suggest, but I do try to think over why they have said what they have said and what the knock on effect of changing the story to try and please them wouldl be.

Another rule of beta-reading is that when a reader says 'I was bored' or 'I was confused' you can't argue with that, only accept it. If you're reader is saying 'I was expecting gay action' then that might be a sign that the promises you're making as part of the set up are leading the reader down the wrong garden path.

It's often good for these types of stories to have at least two beta readers. If you give it to #2 specifically not mentioning #1 issues and they come up with some kind of similar criticsm, it's a good sign that something might be off in the story.

Ultimately if the story is finished and if there is no obvious 'quick fix' you may as well just release it, see what the reaction is and if it happens that your BR was spot on the money, just take it as a lesson for next time.

I've had 2 beta readers so far, the other one didn't say anything about queerbating. A 3rd beta reader has not returned her report to me yet. The story is not finished yet. I could make a few changes without too much trouble that would resolve the issue, but to be honest, I don't think there is an issue. The beta reader didn't come down hard with her criticism. She just let me know that she thought I was getting close to queerbating. Yes, I know you can't please everybody.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think your beta reader is a little (read: a lot) too sensitive.

 

[Britva415]

excluding bisexual as within the domain of queer [...] isn't unheard of.

Say what, now? Not sure what this means. There are people who don't think bi's are queer?

Are you talking about some of these bi's, themselves? Like, "passing for straight" and not being involved with queer culture?

 

[RejectReality]

Say what, now? Not sure what this means. There are people who don't think bi's are queer?

Are you talking about some of these bi's, themselves? Like, "passing for straight" and not being involved with queer culture?

There are some who don't consider bisexuals ( especially bisexuals who only dabble in same-sex fun and otherwise lead a heterosexual life ) to fall under the umbrella of queer. Search for "bisexual isn't queer" and you'll start coming across the arguments. It's a radical view, but it's out there.

 

[Britva415]

There are some who don't consider bisexuals ( especially bisexuals who only dabble in same-sex fun and otherwise lead a heterosexual life ) to fall under the umbrella of queer. Search for "bisexual isn't queer" and you'll start coming across the arguments. It's a radical view, but it's out there.

Wait till they hear what the queerbashing bigots think of them.

 

[Jackie.Hikaru]

There are some who don't consider bisexuals ( especially bisexuals who only dabble in same-sex fun and otherwise lead a heterosexual life ) to fall under the umbrella of queer. Search for "bisexual isn't queer" and you'll start coming across the arguments. It's a radical view, but it's out there.

I don't think it's necessarily a radical view. Some people define queer as simply not following the gender norms in their culture. By this definition you can be a bi woman and follow traditional female norms and therefore not be queer. Heck, following the logic through, you can be gay and not queer.
That's not how I grew up with the term but that's an argument I've heard many times.

 

[TheRedChamber]

For what it's worth, if sexuality is a spectrum, then there are some of us who are close enough to straight-ish as makes little odds.

If you look at my stories I have 62 submissions in total, minus 3 essays makes 59 submissions. Of those 5 of those are gay or involve gay themes, plus I have 2 stories in Trans. That makes me, in Lit terms about 10% queer. Which probably matches my overall gender profile and (at the risk of too much information) probably my porn viewing habits as well.

Researchers invented the term 'Men who have sex with other men' because while conducting their research they found that they were excluding a lot of men who had gay sex but didn't think of themselves as gay. I've never been quite that precious about it, I've been fucked by another man and it felt pretty 'gay' while it was happening. I've never dated another man, and I'm not really involved or have much right to be involved with actual gay issues except as an 'ally'. I don't really think of myself as 'queer' although those reading my stories probably know that I'm not entirely 'vanilla' either. I'm monogomous now (with a woman) but even when I was actively hooking-up I never told anyone about it, just as I don't tell people about the porn I like to watch or if I visit a prostitute.

But, yeah, if the wrong homophobe caught me coming out of the wrong location, I might get a good kicking.

The thing for bisexuals who are more balanced in their gender-attractions - in worse times they probably could get by by just focusing on the socially accepted opposite gender in a way that was much harder for full homosexuals, but in the modern world they naturally want the right to date whoever they choose and as such are as 'queer' as anyone else.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

There are some who don't consider bisexuals ( especially bisexuals who only dabble in same-sex fun and otherwise lead a heterosexual life ) to fall under the umbrella of queer. Search for "bisexual isn't queer" and you'll start coming across the arguments. It's a radical view, but it's out there.

The 1990s called and want their lines back...

I can confirm that homophobes never ask "Excuse me, woman holding hands with another woman, do you ever fuck men?" before hurling abuse or stones.

In my area people suddenly got way more relaxed about bisexuals round 2010, probably as a result of more acceptance of homosexuality. But excluding bisexuals as 'not really queer' was a real thing before that - the charity Switchboard was called Gay and Lesbian Switchboard and would hang up on anyone who said they were bisexual, for example. Councils given funding to support 'lesbians and gays' or 'homosexuals' or 'queer rights' refused to support bisexual groups.

It was so ingrained that it never occured to me in 8 months to look for any bisexual events in the 'Gay' section of Time Out magazine, when I moved to London.

 

[RejectReality]

The 1990s called and want their lines back...

I can confirm that homophobes never ask "Excuse me, woman holding hands with another woman, do you ever fuck men?" before hurling abuse or stones.

In my area people suddenly got way more relaxed about bisexuals round 2010, probably as a result of more acceptance of homosexuality. But excluding bisexuals as 'not really queer' was a real thing before that - the charity Switchboard was called Gay and Lesbian Switchboard and would hang up on anyone who said they were bisexual, for example. Councils given funding to support 'lesbians and gays' or 'homosexuals' or 'queer rights' refused to support bisexual groups.

It was so ingrained that it never occured to me in 8 months to look for any bisexual events in the 'Gay' section of Time Out magazine, when I moved to London.

I'm not talking about people outside the club. It's those on the inside who don't consider you queer enough if you lead a lifestyle that's too close to hetero for their tastes.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I'm not talking about people outside the club. It's those on the inside who don't consider you queer enough if you lead a lifestyle that's too close to hetero for their tastes.

Which is what I was referencing - the not-totally-bygone exclusion of bisexuals by gays and lesbians.