None Dare Call It Treason? I DO!

[Expertise]

Bring Back TailGunner Joe!

Your all a bunch of commie pinko scum!

535%! Fuck me, i'm moving south! Apparently I have not been receiving pay increases commensurate with my Yanqui capitilist pig peers.

Fuckit! Everything is gonna' change for the better when SeaDoo Boy (Stockwell Day) or Sparky takes over...

God Bless Mom, Apple Pie and stock options!

 

[Thumper]

I hate pink!!!

Unless of course it is in relation to a favored part of the female anatomy.

Tail gunner!!!!!!!! Great song!

Hell, I'm moving south just as soon as my kids are grown...well as far south as Florida that is..

I just get a little wound up when I read some of the propaganda(as Flagg correctly put it)Bill espouses..

If you get a CB radio and park near a truckstop sometime you'll hear much of the same spiel that Bill iterates. Not a glowing corroboration by any means..Most of these guys and girls too get their political information from someone knbown as the "Truckin' Bozo"(midnight-6AM 700am)....nuff said there!



[Edited by Thumper on 09-27-2000 at 08:21 AM]

 

[Purple Haze]

Unclebill,

I've always been interested in the libertarian way of thinking. Beats the hell out of the GOP or the NPL for me.

I always thought the libertarians opposed the draft. If so, why do you attack Clinton for his dodging ways?

Are the libertarians for a stronger military? I doubt it.

Do most people that attack draft dodgers have any military background? Not.

What branch of the military did you serve in?

You sound republican to me.

 

[Expertise]

Right Thumper...your probably wearing pink bunnie slippers.LOL

I am just trying to reconcile Flaggs socialist leanings with his anti-populist feelings. The great unwashed I think he called them.LOL I agree with him by the way. The vast majority of the population tend to be bleating uneducated sheep who espouse whatever the media tell them. Or bitch about the guv'mint (sic) just because they need something to bitch about other than their own pathetic lives.

This would be my elitist diatribe du'jour. LOL. BTW I am right of center on most political scales.

[Edited by Expertise on 09-27-2000 at 08:33 AM]

 

[Bliss]

Ode to the Lemmon-g's

Not sheep, lemmings. You can't tell someone that they are a lemming! It's just not kosher and besides most folks aren't good at self identifying and they'd deny both of those sentiments.

*This way! Over here! It's the Next Big Thing!*

Big N, little y, big fucking Q - my cute lil ass!

 

[Flagg]

I am just trying to reconcile Flaggs socialist leanings with his anti-populist feelings.

LOL! You're not the only one! Haven't you heard of champagne socialism!

 

[Expertise]

Is that like "Lip Stick Lesbianism"?

See kiddies Flagg and I have wildly disparate political views and we get along.

*Walks away singing "Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together...."*

 

[Purple Haze]

Re: Unclebill,

I've always been interested in the libertarian way of thinking. Beats the hell out of the GOP or the NPL for me.

I always thought the libertarians opposed the draft. If so, why do you attack Clinton for his dodging ways?

Are the libertarians for a stronger military? I doubt it.

Do most people that attack draft dodgers have any military background? Not.

What branch of the military did you serve in?

You sound republican to me.

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by Flagg
Firstly, if you want anyone to take you seriously in an ideological debate you need to be able to distinguish between various philosophies. I notice you refer to socialism/communism as if the two were undistinguishable. If I were to say to you that socialism, stalinism, leninism and maoism all are completely different social doctrines would you understand?

Yes, I understand the rhetoric and window dressing you perceive as different doctrines. I ignore the sales pitch, the façade, the propaganda and look at the underlying fundamental principles embodied by the application of the doctrines and they all come down to the fundamental idea of collectivism, i. e., no recognition of individual rights and freedoms, the end justifies the means, truth is what promotes the cause of the doctrine.

Once you accept these tenets, you embrace the principles that thievery, murder and tyranny are acceptable societal practices. It then becomes relegated to a matter of negotiating the degree of implementation regardless of the variant of collectivism which you worship.

Originally posted by Thumper
The United States is an economic success for a privileged few.....not me...I live paycheck to paycheck, have no medical insurance and I work two jobs while my wife works full time also...

And I'll venture that a significant portion of your earnings are confiscated likely against your will by a bunch of politicians who don't work for a living. If you could keep what you legitimately earn, would not your life be better financially? So answer to yourself, at least, honestly, would you pay the same amount in taxes were there no threat of reprisal at all? That is, completely and totally voluntary!

Originally posted by Thumper
I have no desire to be wealthy....I would not be wealthy for very long anyway...too many people I know could use some help....

You're truly unique there. I don't think I know anyone who would choose to not be wealthy given the opportunity. As to those who need help, look closely and you'll find that on the whole, Americans are the most generous people in the world based on charitable donations. When there is a disaster anywhere in the world, who is there to provide help, food, clothing, water, money and whatever else is needed? When there is a disaster in America, who sends help? Americans again, but damned few if any outside the USA!

Originally posted by Thumper
Jesus would have been a socialist

No news there; I've understood that for thirty years! Perhaps something on which you should endeavor to elighten your christian friends.

Originally posted by Thumper
....tax evasion(intentional or accidental) 36%...so who is cheating the system more...

Why is it a crime to want to keep what is rightfully yours?

Originally posted by Thumper
A child in a poor country must live with a disfiguring condition that over here is treated automatically at birth(cleft palate)...why? Oh yeah....she can't pay for it! Since when is medicine a finite resource to be hoarded?

There are hundreds if not thousands of American doctors and other medical personnel who do precisely what you address going to Mexico and various other countries providing services paid by charitable donors and donating their own time, knowledge and skills. This just reinforces what I mentioned above about Americans and their generosity. And that which is donated through charity actually reaches the indigent with the need at an efficiency 4-5 times what is stolen by government and administered through layer upon layer of bureaucracy which consumes ~80% of what is confiscated.

Or perhaps you'd rather have a nationalized medical care system like Canada's where as a human it takes 3-6 months on a waiting list to get a catscan but you can get one for your dog within a week! Or perhaps you'd like to live in Cuba where EVERYONE has health care!

Originally posted by Purple Haze
I always thought the libertarians opposed the draft. If so, why do you attack Clinton for his dodging ways?

You are correct in your assessment of the Libertarian view of the draft. My criticism of Clinton regarding the draft was not the aversion to compulsory military service but rather the hypocritical and cowardly means of avoidance he used and then his lying to evade discovery once he became a candidate. My opinion of him regarding the draft is the same as my opinion of Cassius Clay (Mohammed Ali to the youth out there) who chose a similarly cowardly manner of evading the draft who later because of his notoriety gained absolution without penalty for the same behavior as Clinton. I respect and support the position of ANYONE who stands in a legal battle for the right against an abusive government as ours has become.

I would have consummate respect for both in this specific instance had they manifest the courage to stand and fight against the draft as a matter of principle in a legal dispute against the state's declaration that it is the owner of any man's life which is in direct contradiction to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. But neither chose the route of honor but the path of lesser resistance, of cowardly dishonor.

And while Albert Gore Junior did serve and did go to Viet Nam, his time in country was anything but typical of the soldiers there who did not have a high powered politician father. In essence, Al Jr. had his own personal body guard(s) while in Viet Nam to keep him out of harm's way. So any claim he makes regarding military service is a sham at the very least and in my opinion an outright lie.

As a Libertarian, I favor a strong military for the purpose of defending America and Americans and for that purpose ONLY! The military should never be used as Clinton has so disgracefully as a distraction from his own sordid behavior by putting the lives of men and women far better than himself in harm's way. He should have never sent military people to Haiti, Bosnia, or anywhere else on any mission other than to defend American lives or American property.

I served in the Navy for 25 years.

As to me sounding like a Republican, how many of them do you know who espouse (as I do) the repeal of Amendment 16, the repeal of all drug prohibition laws, the COMPLETE diestablishment of the government social welfare system, dissolution of the public education system and privatization of it, TOTAL privatization of Socialist Security, repeal of affirmative action (racial quotas), dissolution of the EPA, the DEA, the DOE, etc? Now tell me again, which of these make me sound Republican?

 

[Purple Haze]

All of them.

 

[Rainheart]

Well, I dunno . . .

Just remember, the Japanese conquered China once, and look at how much land they had to cross to get to the capital (wherever it may have been in ancient China). And think that the Japanese had a lot less people as a nation than the Chinese.

As for the King Arthur thing, the battle was NOT foreordained; Arthur was warned by the spirit of Gawain that it was extremely possible, though. Both Arthur and Mordred (also spelled Modred) had given their armies the order to attack as soon as they saw a sword unsheathed on the other side. A knight on one side (either I don't remember, or it was never stated which) saw an asp in the grass, and unthinkingly drew his sword to kill it. Someone on the other side interpreted it as a signal to attack, and the curtain fell on the Arthurian era from there . . .

--Rainheart

 

[Siren]

OMG HAZER....HAHAHAHA

 

[Unclebill]

Re: OMG HAZER....HAHAHAHA

Unclebill,
I would like to ask you something please, as I am real curious about this.....

Do you only post on this political forum thread or others such as this?
And if so, then why frequent the Lit if it is only to talk politics?

SIREN

This (Literotica) is the only forum in which I participate on any kind of a regular basis. Generally the people here seem intelligent, reasonably rational and fairly well informed. Many of the people who frequent here also provide alternate perspectives which are many times informative and useful.

I visit Literotica mostly for the stories and appreciate the efforts of some fine writers who post here, *Eve* and Whispersecret being a couple of my favorites because they write quite well and have presented stories which I find suit my tastes quite well. I've also enjoyed Jane Rolly's works and others.

The BB has grown so horrendously large since I started visiting here. I remember when there were less than 10,000 posts; now there are three times that many threads! I could review almost all of the general board in a couple of days and stay fairly current. I've even communicated via e-mail with a few people here and enjoyed that immensely.

Now I find I can follow only a small percentage of the threads but I consummately enjoy the BB as well as the stories and pics. I have also posted on a few threads addressing technical issues. I have also posted on a few other threads but having read other posts before mine, I will not post unless I have something I deem useful or constructive to add. I rarely see a reason to attack someone because of a post and in the few cases where I've considered it, I've generally found that others who arrived ahead of me have said as well or better anything I might have said.

And last but certainly not least, Laurel's and Manu's energy and drive in creating and improving an environment that is conducive to bringing together such a diversity of people and ideas. It is the free exchange of ideas that is the essence of freedom and intellectual growth. The mind that is not challenged to keep learning atrophies.

And, BTW, most of my orientation is philosophical rather than political although it is easy to confuse the two. I find it interesting and stimulating to discuss philosophical points and principles. I was taught philosophy by a marvelously brilliant woman whom I never had the pleasure to meet and, sadly, she is now deceased. She was probably the most staunch advocate of reason, truth and reality to ever venture onto the philosophical scene and was ruthlessly derided for her magnificent accomplishments.

She inspired and instilled in me a deep and abiding appreciation of and respect for truth, honor, honesty and reason, the most admirable attributes of man, and likewise a strong disdain and disregard for those who denigrate mankind as a whole by striving to be the lowest of the low rather than striving for the best one can attain. And as you might imagine, it is this latter which has resulted in my very low opinion of politicians.

As to Purple Haze's answer, I missed his point entirely if there was one. If it was an attempt to insult me, he failed and if it was an attempt to answer my question, it was too cryptic for my feeble mind to decipher.

 

[Siren]

Thank you for responding to me Unclebill

 

[Unclebill]

Re: Thank you for responding to me Unclebill

I think Purple Haze was answering your inquiry as to which one of your responses sounded like a republican...he answered, all of them.

SIREN
____________________________________________________________
~~~ALL I CAN SAY TO EVERYONE ABOUT POLITICS IS TO ... VOTE--USE IT OR LOSE IT.~~~

Which is why his response is so puzzling. I know of no republican who fully supports the positions I do. They usually in some measure support one or two but they generally do not support divorcement of government from the role of master as do Libertarians. The republicans merely prefer the 'gentle master' while the democrats prefer the much more 'authoritarian master'. The two major parties don't have serious differences in fundamental principles, merely in degree of implementation.

~~~YOU DO REALIZE YOUR LIBERTARIAN CANDIDATES ARE DOOMED TO NOT WIN DONT YA, THE POLITICAL SYSTEM WOULD NEVER ALLOW A WIN BY THEM EXCEPT FOR A TOKEN FEW?~~~

I'm also impressed by your statement quoted above. You actually recognize that the republican/democrat organized system will not and cannot afford ro allow the idea of freedom, the principle upon which America was founded, to be victorious in an election. In a nation where freedom is supposed to be the watchword and the loftiest ideal, don't you find it interesting that the major political parties feel such a strong need to suppress the one party that stands for that freedom?

They have established laws of various kinds which very effectively limit the ability of other than the two branches of our major political party to compete in the political arena.

 

[Purple Haze]

Okay, first of all cut me a little slack here, although I took typing in the seventh grade, I still lack the skills to keep up with the huge posts some of you are capable of, my posts tend to be short and to the point, and even those take a while because I tend to check my spelling and grammer before I send it through the chute.

Unclebill, My intentions are not to insult you, I find your views to be interesting and passionate. I became somewhat interested in the Libertarian Party years ago, Mainly because they seemed to share my beliefs in a truly free America. (legalized marijuana, no income tax, very little government, so on and so on) Of course where one person's liberty infringes on another is a long arguement I am game to discuss.

I haven't recently checked into the Libertarian Party, I am not sure what their interests are as of late. Maybe you can help me with a website with some info, I'd appreciate that.

I live in a very conservative area in the northern plains, and many of my friends are republican, I enjoy their friendships, I don't share many of their political views. The reason I see you like a republican is that you sound very much like them. You have the same kind of hatred for our President and his would-be successor as they do and you have the same paranoia of China as well. Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Dan Quayle and the rest managed to side-step the Viet Nam war as did countless others who love to spout off about draft dodgers. I understand now that you are a Navy man and I respect that.

Myself personally, If I was old enough to be drafted into that war, I am not ashamed to say that I'd probably be hanging with canadian_lady too. I did serve for a short time in the early eighties, in those days Iran was the place to kick-ass, and I was willing. As far as where I am on the political spectrum, I don't know, there really isn't anyone out there that really speaks for me, I really hate to say that I would take a Jessie Ventura over most of the stuffed suits that usually end up in office.

China? not afraid of 'em, the days of ground wars are over, and I really don't think they could get a missle or anything else onto our soil if they wanted to, and I don't think they want to. I don't like their government, so I think I'll stay here in the land of the free and the home of the brave.

By the way, I think Clinton is a spineless, weasley lying sack of shit, and so are the republicans that tried so hard to ruin him. there.

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by Purple Haze
…and even those take a while because I tend to check my spelling and grammer before I send it through the chute.

I understand this completely. I usually compose a response of any length in Word97, then cut and paste here. Even then I mange to screw up. I never took typing.

Originally posted by Purple Haze
Unclebill, My intentions are not to insult you, I find your views to be interesting and passionate. I became somewhat interested in the Libertarian Party years ago, Mainly because they seemed to share my beliefs in a truly free America. (legalized marijuana, no income tax, very little government, so on and so on) Of course where one person's liberty infringes on another is a long arguement I am game to discuss.

I did not expect it was but such a short and cryptic response left me wondering if you meant all of the republicans you know shared all my views or did all my views lead you to think I was republican.

Originally posted by Purple Haze
I haven't recently checked into the Libertarian Party, I am not sure what their interests are as of late. Maybe you can help me with a website with some info, I'd appreciate that.

http://www.lp.org
http://www.harrybrowne.org

Originally posted by Purple Haze
…You have the same kind of hatred for our President and his would-be successor as they do and you have the same paranoia of China as well.

My response to Clinton is not personal, it's entirely moral and philosophical. I also find it repugnant to refer to this traitor as a president. A President is a leader, not one who sticks his finger into the winds to see which way the latest polls blow. A leader is one who commands respect, not one who demands blind allegiance. A leader is one who accepts responsibility for his actions, not one who seeks to evade responsibility or to blame others for his failings. A leader is one who respects those he leads, not one who preaches one thing and practices another. In all honesty I can't visualize Bill Clinton leading anything more challenging or dignified than a sophomoric panty raid.

In short, to call this asshole a president is to demean and denigrate those who have served in the office honorably before and after him, even including FDR and Jimmy Carter who I hold to be the poorest excuse for a leader in America until Bill Clinton slithered onto the scene. He does hold the office but he has never and is not capable of fulfilling the role.

And for Albert Gore Junior, there is more and more information surfacing that he is as culpable in the Chinese campaign violations as is Slick Willie. Gore's dealings with the Russians have resulted in the Russians selling to the Chinese Navy surface combatant ships which have the capability to launch cruise missiles (the surface skimmer variety which are extremely difficult to detect and defend against) which are capable of carrying small thermonuclear warheads which could easily take out a carrier or carrier task force. Some of this is delineated in "Year of the Rat" by Edward Timberlake. [http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/102-4666480-3287326]

Originally posted by Purple Haze
Rush Limbaugh, Newt Gingrich, Dan Quayle and the rest managed to side-step the Viet Nam war as did countless others who love to spout off about draft dodgers.

Specifics of Gingrich and Quayle I don't know. The Limbaugh question was raised (I suspect as an attempt to silence his dissent and vocal attacks on Clinton) several years ago. Limbaugh addressed the question on air and it never appeared again so apparently even the Clinton propaganda machine couldn't fabricate anything useful from it. Essentially he had a physical condition that eliminated him. When he gave the medical name for it I initially thought it was hemorrhoids but that was not the case. It was in the colorectal physiology, however, pylonoidal (sp?) cyst or something like that. (If there's a medical whiz out there, please enlighten me.)

And on the subject of Limbaugh, I find him a curious mix of contradictions. He denounces Clinton's character based on legitimate factors. He has also said many times on air that he does not personally dislike Clinton. This I also consider legitimate since I am in the same position having never met Clinton. I seriously doubt I could like him since I have no respect for him at all, only disdain. However, where Rush and I part company on Clinton is when he says that Clinton might be a great guy to go out socially with and have a few drinks, cruise the bars, etc (I'm paraphrasing). What I can't understand is how you can be so offended by someone's public behavior and seriously consider any kind of private personal relationship? Can he really believe that Clinton's character or behavior is less egregious in his personal life than in his public life? This might make sense if said of a starkly conservative politician who is more relaxed when not "in character" for public consumption. But for Clinton whose behavior in the public arena is nearly as offensive as (I suspect) in private, how could one even entertain such a ludicrous idea unless you embrace and endorse his behaviors? That's one of Rush's dichotomies that truly puzzles me! Most others are fairly apparent.

Originally posted by Purple Haze
Myself personally, If I was old enough to be drafted into that war, I am not ashamed to say that I'd probably be hanging with canadian_lady too. I did serve for a short time in the early eighties, in those days Iran was the place to kick-ass, and I was willing.

I have no problem with your desire to not be forced into placing your life in jeopardy at the whim of some asshole like Clinton. My problem is his lying and attempts to use political influence to evade the draft and when called on it, lied and said it never happened when existing documents were produced that proved it did. Had he refused on grounds of principle and fought it in court, I would have consummate respect for that decision and course of action.

I joined the Navy with the idea of getting an education and did so. I ended up making a career of it because I liked the job I had and for the most part, the people with whom I worked. The military is definitely NOT the lifestyle for everyone. The ship on which I served was under fire once and that is NOT fun!

Originally posted by Purple Haze
China? not afraid of 'em, the days of ground wars are over, and I really don't think they could get a missle or anything else onto our soil if they wanted to, and I don't think they want to.

Clinton has made certain they can deliver an ICBM to your door. He was instrumental in Loral Corporation (large corporate donor of Democratic election campaign funds) providing missile guidance technology to the Chinese Space Program to allow them to successfully guide missile for satellite positioning when they could not do it themselves. Do you honestly believe that he's so stupid that he didn't realize the Chinese could apply this same technology to ICBM's? Or that he honestly believed that they would not transfer to technology to their military? Is it my paranoia or your naiveté?

It was his catastrophic mismanagement of security at Los Alamos by placing Hazel O'leary (sp?) (DOE) in charge of the facility that resulted in the Chinese gaining access to critical nuclear weapons design information. She was the genius who eliminated the access control system which employed security badges of different color and design signifying appropriate clearances for areas of the facility requiring different access levels because she decided it was discriminatory to make people wear different color badges. This is the pinhead he put in charge of our most closely guarded nuclear weapons research information.

Originally posted by Purple Haze
By the way, I think Clinton is a spineless, weasley lying sack of shit, and so are the republicans that tried so hard to ruin him. there.

I agree with your first appraisal. A bit of difference in perception on the second. The Republicans did not try to ruin him, they merely mounted a half-hearted attempt to hold him accountable for a crime he committed while in office as the nation's chief law enforcement officer, specifically, perjury and suborning perjury in a civil case, something for which the justice department under his administration prosecuted and convicted a few hundred other people. The Republicans were merely trying to uphold the rule of law but the Democrats in the Senate managed to squash that handily and in my judgement became guilty of criminal conspiracy and accessory after the fact by doing so.

[Edited by Unclebill on 09-29-2000 at 08:30 PM]

 

[Thumper]

What purpose wealth

It may sound weird but it is true...I have absolutely no desire to be wealthy...why? Exactly! Why?
What can wealth obtain for me?
Happiness....No...I am content where I am..only thing money is good for is obtaining things..bigger house=more work to maintain: nicer car= just to get from point A to B what a waste. Pursuing wealth takes time away from things I truly enjoy...I have observed this in so many people I have talked with. It seems the more they get the more they want...they obsess about it and worry about their "investments" and how they are performing...Put it to you this way...If I lost everything tomorrow....big deal...I can survive.

Honestly Bill I don't pay that much in taxes...in other words it wouldn't make much of a difference in my standard of living...That's why I don't bitch about taxes. If there is no income tax how do you suppose anything gets paid for?
The highways you drive on:government built. This "Internet":government spawned. The FCC, FAA(would you be willing to fly if it was every airline for themselves out there?), the military, EPA( I know you hate them but sadly they are needed or do you trust Dupont,Union Carbide,Hooker and myriad other companies to do the proper thing?)

I do not begrudge the government the taxes I pay...I do have an issue with the Fica tax...why do the wealthy get off scot free on this? I pay roughly 7.5% on every dollar I earn whereas the high earners stop paying at around 62,000? But even so it doesn't bother me that much...The way I look at it...you can sit around and bitch and complain and worry about every little penny they take or go out and toss the football with the kids....when you are on your deathbed which one do ya want to remember. The pennies stay here no matter how hard ya fought for them...