Oklahoma Bomber, Serious

[Grrrn38]

Dying is easy. Way too easy. he should have to live his life out, living with the knowledge everyday of what he did. Living with the hatred others feel for him.

Political prisoners aren't like other murderers, rapists, burglars, etc. He's proud of what he did - he was making a political statement. The feelings others have for him make no difference to him. A life sentence "living with the knowledge...of what he did" isn't a significant punishment for Timothy McVeigh.

 

[SeXy ReDHeD]

Dying is easy. Way too easy. he should have to live his life out, living with the knowledge everyday of what he did. Living with the hatred others feel for him.

Political prisoners aren't like other murderers, rapists, burglars, etc. He's proud of what he did - he was making a political statement. The feelings others have for him make no difference to him. A life sentence "living with the knowledge...of what he did" isn't a significant punishment for Timothy McVeigh.

Thank you... what I was trying to say and couldn't.

 

[Slick66]

Another consideration

McVey controlling his own destiny was mentioned before, my thought is this.

That by allowing him to do this is he not in a sense escaping his punishment. Further to that I would hazard a guess at his reasoning behind this. He is denying further, the authority of the "system" he sought to destroy. By doing this and not only accepting but asking to be put to death he is setting him self up to be a martyr for his "cause".

I say deny him this. Let him rot. I say this as a proponent of capital punishment and one who could flip the switch on ANYONE who had commited such a heinous crime.

[Edited by Slick66 on 01-17-2001 at 05:44 AM]

 

[SimplySouthern]

On this subject, I am seriously conflicted. It seems to me to be more than just a little hypocritical to say that killing someone is wrong and to turn around and say that killing someone who took the life of another is right. I can't say how I would feel if this were a person who had taken the life of someone close to because this has never been something I have had to face.

I can say this. There are 2 ways to look at each subject. In the line of work I am in, I have seen both sides. Imagine if you will how you would feel about someone who took the life of your loved one. I'm sure that I would be a strong supporter in the cause of the death penalty in this case. However, imagine if the person who was convicted of this murder was your sibling, parent or spouse. Would your feelings for the death penalty be the same? Before you indignantly answer that question, take a long hard look at it. Would you honestly be able to say...go ahead, kill them They deserve it. I couldn't.

 

[Slick66]

I guess my closing was driving at this Simply Southern. For an act this evil, I could.

 

[Closet Desire]

Sigh...

I was living in Oklahoma City, attending school and working, at the time of the blast. My VA counsellor survived only because she was in the stairwell. It caused her serious injuries to her arm and shoulder. I think it killed vitually everybody she had worked with for years. I have a stack of photos that I got from the police and highway patrol and I still look at them once in a while because I can't believe somebody could do such a thing. Looking at them now, maybe I should post them. I don't think any of them have ever really been published, but they aren't confidential or anything like that. It really hurts.

I know deep down I would like the see the man suffer. Tie him to a post, give him opium, and kill him with the Chinese death of a thousand cuts. But, I know that I'm feeling vengeance and not justice.

I'm not sure what I think about the death penalty. It goes against everything I believe, but sometimes it still seems right.

Call me unsure.

 

[Andra_Jenny]

Keeping him alive serves one vital purpose - he does not become a martyr. There are people who believe he performed a military action against a tyrannical government. Alive, he is a small, weak, individual. Dead, he becomes a hero, larger than life who was brave enough to choose death for the cause. He serves better purpose as an exhibit, as does Charlie Manson.

 

[SimplySouthern]

I guess my closing was driving at this Simply Southern. For an act this evil, I could.

I honestly don't think I could. I realize that I have no emotional ties to any of the people that lost lives in this heinous crime, however I have seen the same basic situation too many times. As the family of a "defendant" the first thing you do is look for a reason why your loved one would do something this evil. As the family of the victim, you don't care about the "whys". I understand both sides.

My point was that until you have been in a situation such as this...from both sides...you don't really know how you would react.

 

[Thor's Hammer]

I hope everyone read teresafanin's post - and took the time to look at the page that was linked. I have lived a long time, but her poignant story brought real tears to my eyes. The lives snuffed out by a "human being." - in a church. I am a Democrat, a liberal, and I believe in the basic goodness of people. However, I also believe the death penalty is appropriate for certain crimes. It is not a deterrent - we all know that. But if you do certain things to other people, you should pay the ultimate penalty.

And to the supercilious, arrogant, judgemental "riff" who said:

"And I ask you to understand, I abhor murder. For any reason-even the kind that America seems to endorse"

You are entitled to your opinion. Perhaps one day you will grow up and see the world as it is - not as your fuzzy-headed, naive, puerile maunderings would have it.

Teresafanin - you have, for what it is worth, my sincere, heartfelt sorrow for the loss you have endured.

[Edited by Thor's Hammer on 01-17-2001 at 06:36 AM]

 

[Closet Desire]

More sighs...

Terresfannin does know what most of us will hopefully never know or even understand.

I didn't lose anybody I knew in the OKC bombing although, as it turns out, I knew several who should have been there.

I've just looked at the photos I kept of the aftermath and here is a link to the photos if you want to see them. I'll leave them up for a few hours and then remove them. I did not take any of these photos. They were not taken by the press nor have they been copied from any book, magazine, or newspaper. They were taken by various law enforcement and emergency personnel and circulated widely among them. I just happened to bwe working with these people at that time in my life. It never fails to somber me to think that it took an American to hate this country enough to kill and destroy so many lives for a purpose none of us will ever understand.


It's only my opinion. I think I would prefer to see McVeigh spend the rest of his life in prison and I would hope he lives to a ripe old age. I'm not saying it's the right thing because I don't know what is right in this case.

[Edited by Closet Desire on 01-17-2001 at 11:33 AM]

 

[Earthgoddess]

Personally I think he should be given to the family members to do with as they please* ducking as things are thrown at her* I am a semi-liberal democrat but I do see the merit, in special circumstances, in the death penalty. Especially in crimes this terrible,this was more of an act of war though- so I say let the victims and their families decide. I hope to Goddess no one that I love ever commits this sort of atrocity, but should that happen my love for that person should not and could not over ride the crimes that person committed. I know someone who murdered a man who beat her almost to death, repeatedly-was it right, how can I judge that-she was not convicted,served no time and got the help that she desparately needed to begin healing. She lives with daily pain and suffering from the beatings. I think she paid her debt,can that animal from OK ever repay his debt,does he even see that his actions were wrong?
I am going downstairs and making my lil pirate breakfast and thanking my lucky stars that I have been spared this kind of anguish. My thoughts and prayers surround everyone who has lost a loved one. Be it the mother of a victim or a executed criminal-loss is loss.

 

[angie girl]

interesting

Well my goodness, this thread brought out a lot of honest feelings huh? I usually just end up getting pillared and scorned for my thread ideas, and deservedly so too.

So maybe I will wade in too since I started the whole thing. I got it in my head a few years back that what is basically wrong with the "justice" system is that it focuses on criminals and crime. Criminals are "brought to justice" and are allowed "due process" and have all kinds a rights under the Constitution. Now I am all in favor of the Constitution, but why doesn't the "justice" system focus on the victims and treat the criminals as only one part of restoring justice as best possible (obviously with some of the horrors described here justice will never be possible)?

I know that now victims are sometimes allowed to testify at sentencing hearings or whatever, but while criminals have the right to testify or not testify at the trial, victims have no right to do anything. If the prosecutors don't call them they are never heard from. Why don't we "bring the victims to justice" or maybe we should say "bring justice to the victims"?

As an aside, one thing this would do would be to prevent the government from witchhunting for "crimes" where there are no victims. Don't you guys say no harm no foul?

 

[Slick66]

"Restorative Justice" can be very effective in some cases, property crimes etc. I can't see how what the victims (and I include the dead, their families and everyone touched by this)lost, can be restored to them in any meaningful way.

The best that they could possibly hope for is closure. Closure might be one positive outcome of this vermins execution. But again, even as a proponent of capital punishment, I don't believe that McVeighs death would lead to that. He is, instead, made a martyr. Something I believe is his intention. Something that surves his cause more than it serves the greater good or the healing of the victims.

 

[Comshaw]

As for McVey being a martyr, if someone is going to view him as a martyr, they will if he's in prison or executed. In fact if they do view him as a martyr, I think it's more dangerous to keep him alive. Why? Because there will be some crazy out there who will try and free him, "For the good of the father land", or some such horse shit. In so doing they will endanger more people.

as for execution being a punishment, I don't believe it serves any purpose in that particular area. It's been proven not to be a deterrent, and if you really want to extract the owed pound of flesh there are better ways.

1. Give the murderer to the family of the victim to use as they will. The only thing this does is turn good people into the same type of animal they have in their position.

2. Kill them in the same way they killed their victim. Again all this does is make people feel vindicated for a very short time.

3. Keep them alive as long as possible and use them as an organ donor, removing a part that's needed as needed, keeping them alive by machine. This at least makes use of their usable body parts that can be salvaged. But this type of system sends a chill right up my spine.

All the above are based on retribution, or extracting what the killer owes the family of the victim and society in general. I don't believe any of it is useful or serves any purpose. The one and only use for execution is to be rid of a menace. To put a final end to someone who is a danger to those around them. There are killers that should not be executed, but one's like McVey or Manson aren't among them. People of that ilk should be permanently and finally dealt with. Killed, executed, finished, end. For one sole reason, self protection. If they are dead no one needs to worry about who they will kill next.

Comshaw

 

[Slick66]

Comshaw

I am not necessarily in disagreement with you but I would pose this question to you.

(I am in no way comparing these people to McVey)

Would JFK be idolized to the extent that he is?

Would Jim Morrison?

I simply put forth the argument that he can be held up by the radical right as a martyr only when hes dead. Like those from Ruby Ridge or Waco.

Yet another false prophet for the Right. Washed in the blood of their cause.

I say lets not help them. Let him rot in jail he is a far less attractive poster boy for them in a federal issue orange coverall.

 

[Ksss]

I am not normally for the death penalty myself. I, personally, think McVeigh is vying for media attention, which he is obviously getting. Put the bastard (sorry) out of everyone's misery, deny him any more public exposure through the media.

Teresafannin your link does indeed work...How awful it is to lose a child..I read quite a few of the memorials. My heart is breaking for the lost of your child...

 

[Siren]

Teresafanin is my true life hero.

 

[Comshaw]

Damn Slick! You know how to make a guy think don't you! Makes my damned head hurt it does!

you said:

"Would JFK be idolized to the extent that he is?

Would Jim Morrison?

I simply put forth the argument that he can be held up by the radical right as a martyr only when he's dead. Like those from Ruby Ridge or Waco."

As for Morrison, you're probably correct, he wouldn't have been idolized as much, even though he was a fantastic singer. On JFK I think he would have been, because of what happened during his administration and how he handled it.

Randy Weaver is still walking around and is viewed as a vindicated hero by the far right. Personally, I think radicals can use someone as a symbol whether they are dead or alive and being held as "political prisoners".
I think you have a very valid point and to tell you the truth I'm not sure which is more powerful, a dead martyr or a live one. Either way some fanatic will use him to justify their own narrow, biased view of the world, as well as crazy, violent actions caused by such thinking. I still think the best course is execution. that way we are rid of at least one killer.
Please, don't make me think so hard next time? Feel's like my skull will bust open and spill what little brain's I have all over the floor!


Comshaw

 

[teresafannin]

Hello Thor & everyone else, thank you for visiting the link I posted. I put it up so that people can see who I lost. Justin was the best part of me, now I have to go on, knowing that the best part of me is gone. I hope that those who visited that page realise that Justin is a real person, a very young person who deserved to grow up & do all the things we take for granted. I feel sympathy for McVeigh's family, I know they are suffering. But even as I feel for them, I find myself remembering that he deliberately took those lives, he feels no remorse & given the chance, he would do it again.

For Siren, thank you again for being so understanding. I don't consider myself a hero, my hope is that by speaking out about what happened to us, I can possibly prevent something like this from happening to someone else. If nothing good can come out of what happened to us, then it is like Justin & the others died for nothing. That would destroy me. His life meant so much & one of the things that keeps me going is making sure that he is not defined by the 15 mintes that ended his life, but by the 17 years he lived.

[Edited by teresafannin on 01-17-2001 at 08:59 PM]

 

[Ticklish Girl]

Teresafannin,

You & I haven't "met" yet, but I've read about your loss for the first time this evening, and I just wanted to give my deepest sympathies. I can't even imagine the pain you live with on a daily basis, and the fact that you can share it with others really speaks to your strength of character. I hope you can derive some measure of peace from speaking out.

[Edited by Ticklish Girl on 01-17-2001 at 09:29 PM]

 

[CRaZy]

Here in Oz we don't have the death penalty and it is usually not the heated issue we see in news reports from the States. In the late 80's however, there was a terrible murder in which a 12 year old girl was accosted by a husband and wife then tortured and mutilated till she died. I don't want to go into horrible details but her suffering would have been immense and was deliberately designed to be so. The wife actually had 5 children of her own. This case incited calls to reintroduce the death penalty so I thought about it long and hard then.

In the end, I decided that the death penalty should not be reintroduced. Man (used universally for male and female) is supposedly civilised. The "party" atmosphere which pro-death penalty groups develop to accompany an execution seems to highlight the fact that violent crimes and punishments equally bring out the least civilised of emotions in people. The death penalty seems to encourage trial by media and public opinion rather than an unemotional decision made by points of law in the Courts. The majority of people on death row in those States which have the death penalty are poor and black. Only a token number are executed and usually for political purposes due to the "trail by public" aforementioned.

It is far more costly to execute someone than to keep them in jail for life. If the jail system pampers them then that needs to be corrected. Anyone who has committed the crimes discussed here on the board has lost all but basic privileges.

I would want the death penalty and equally barbarous punishments discussed here on the BB if a loved one was the victim of violent crime. I would be making a highly emotive decision. That is why we have courts and laws so that each case is tried fairly. It is the lynchpin of democracy. The death penalty only further heightens emotions in already painful circumstances. By executing some murderers and not others, the courts are being forced to judge that some victims are less worthy. Violence begats violence. Lock them up. Throw away the key. But don't let the media create a bloodthirsty Roman spectacle which is what a case becomes when the death penalty is involved.

Call it Karma, but I believe we all have our destiny. Those who have made others suffer will be judged soon enough. Those who died innocently will be at peace. It is not for Man to decide that time or place.

 

[angie girl]

bad decisions

I said earlier that I can't think of any non-religious reason that a society can't impose the death penalty based on some rational decisions. The strongest argument I can think of against the death penalty is that it is, in almost every society, imposed mostly on the poor and minorities. (As CRaZy said.) This is just to say that we apparently aren't capable of rational decisions and so maybe should prevent ourselves from making ultimately bad ones.

But then what about cases like Speck or Smith or McVey where the crime is so horrible that no one would argue any decision was based on race or economic status. And then yet again, what about Ted Kennedy driving that girl off a bridge? Sure, not the death penalty kinda thing, but you think you or me wouldn't a done some time?

I believe that what I just said is sufficiently confusing so I will stop now.