One Night In Detroit...The Series?

[SimonDoom]

If you are going to do more in this series, I like EB's idea: write stories that stand on their own but that are connected by the setting. I don't think you need to start another long sequential series of stories starting with this one. I'd recommend working on stories that start and finish within themselves.

 

[yukonnights]

I enjoyed One Night in Detroit. For me, the descriptions and scenes were informative about the characters as well the setting(s). There were no third person choirs singing and spelling those out, but I didn't have any trouble filling in their personalities. (Although the purpose of the OP question; ...expand it into a multi-story series, focusing not just on Elizabeth and Raymond, but on other denizens of the Alley Cat Saloon as well. Something like "Tales From The Alley Cat".)

For example, this from the story; "Fuck, no, I just turned and lammed it out of there. I don't think he came after me, but if I had snatched his cash, he would have, for sure."

"I understand. Are you safe? I can send Vic down there."


This is just one of many encounters that night. In this one, I as a reader could and did "feel how she felt" in that situation. It painted a clear picture of the danger she felt, her savvy/experience to leave the cash, that there is a muscle guy and an organization behind Elizabeth. It also painted the picture of one of the realities of the call-girl trade, etc. Not bad for a couple of sentences, in my opinion.

There are numerous interesting characters in this short One Night story, each one was able to come alive in small ways and the extension of the story should give MB a great opportunity to expand on that.

 

[MelissaBaby]

One Night in Detroit gives me a feeling akin to the Uncanny Valley. It’s almost a story, but a story should be more than a series of things. I saw a comment call this gritty realism, but that’s a compliment should only apply to works of fiction and One Night in Detroit reads more like made up Non-Fiction.

You clearly know some things (or have been told some things). You have some great details in this, but none of the details inform the character or the story. ‘I took the elevator because stairs are hard in heels.’ Okay. ’Heels are an occupational necessity’ Okay. ’Not a lot of snow this year.’ Okay. And? Another comment mentioned how the locations felt real and painted a clear picture in their minds. Okay.

I see this a lot in stories that are based on real life details or experiences. Too much effort is made to be honest and true to the moment as you experienced it, and not enough effort is made to bring it all together into something that is more than the sum of its parts. Fiction is more than the sum of its parts because it uses those parts to say something. Non-Fiction, by comparison, is always worth exactly the sum of its parts.

None of your details matter. It’s like you tagged a series of buildings with graffiti that said ‘Elizabeth was here’, and then asked the reader to go to the same buildings in the same order. Okay, but why? Why these buildings? Why these experiences? Why these moments? What are you, the author, trying to tell us except that maybe you used to work as an escort or knew someone who did?

It lacks soul.

A very talented writer once said that “The only time story ever comes alive is through characters”, and they were right. Imagine a planet that has a dense atmosphere of a specific isotope of Oxygen. Okay. That’s an empty detail. Now imagine the awe of the first human who sets down on that planet and sees the bright green sunrise. Oh. Yes, details are important, and I go to great length to get them right in my stories too, but they also have to matter and that requires restraint and forethought.

Details matter when they inform the plot or the character. In ONID there is no plot, and Elizabeth is completely and immediately forgettable. The most I can say about her is that she is present in every scene. All the details you added informed the moment, or the location, and never her feelings. Never her experiences. Nothing is foreshadowed that doesn’t immediately come to pass.

Hello. You have dom equipment. I charge extra to top customers.
But I want to top you.
Oh no.

Tina, he had dom equipment.
You charge extra to top.
Other way around.
Oh no.

Tina I need another job for the money.
Elizabeth I will call you back
Elizabeth I am calling you back to offer you a job for money
Yay. Thank you, Tina.

With the exception of not immediately fucking Ray (a situation we had to wait half a Lit page for), there’s no setup for anything. Without setup, there’s no tension. Without tension, there’s no payoff. Without tension, a story is simply a series of things linked by sequential order.

Fiction is capable of SO MUCH MORE, and so are you. This is the third story of yours that I’ve read, and I continue to have the feeling that you are under-delivering on your talent. You can do better, and every story you write before you really challenge yourself to do more is a waste.

Thank you for taking the time to read and critique my story.

 

[MelissaBaby]

If you are going to do more in this series, I like EB's idea: write stories that stand on their own but that are connected by the setting. I don't think you need to start another long sequential series of stories starting with this one. I'd recommend working on stories that start and finish within themselves.

That is exactly the sort of thing I have in mind.

 

[NotWise]

One Night in Detroit is the first of your stories I've read. I enjoyed it, but I share some of AwkwardMD's concerns.

Briefly, I found parts of the story to be heavy on narrative, and much of the narrative told me "what" but not "why." Very little of the story seemed to be told through dialogue, which to me seemed mostly short on content. When Elizabeth delivered her backstory through dialogue it was unexpected and seemed out of place.

As far as the ongoing story series is concerned, if you feel it then you should do it.

Regarding the naming convention, when I gave Laurel "Tamsin of Sky Village" it was with a note that I'd like to develop an anthology of stories like Tamsin that related to "The Third Ring" -- an earlier story in the same world. I asked her how to associate the stories in an anthology. She responded by renaming "Tamsin of Sky Village" to "The Third Ring - Tamsin of Sky Village."

 

[GroverLang]

She responded by renaming "Tamsin of Sky Village" to "The Third Ring - Tamsin of Sky Village."

What’s the maximum length of a story title? I didn’t think you could have one as long as “The Third Ring - Tamsin of Sky Village.”

 

[MelissaBaby]

One Night in Detroit is the first of your stories I've read. I enjoyed it, but I share some of AwkwardMD's concerns.

Briefly, I found parts of the story to be heavy on narrative, and much of the narrative told me "what" but not "why." Very little of the story seemed to be told through dialogue, which to me seemed mostly short on content. When Elizabeth delivered her backstory through dialogue it was unexpected and seemed out of place.

As far as the ongoing story series is concerned, if you feel it then you should do it.

Regarding the naming convention, when I gave Laurel "Tamsin of Sky Village" it was with a note that I'd like to develop an anthology of stories like Tamsin that related to "The Third Ring" -- an earlier story in the same world. I asked her how to associate the stories in an anthology. She responded by renaming "Tamsin of Sky Village" to "The Third Ring - Tamsin of Sky Village."

I took the theme of "One Night In..." seriously and tried to craft a story (Yes, it's a story :roll eyes: ) in a manner that emphasized that. I tried to keep it immediate, sort of a plunge into the middle of things. I think the "whys" could be interesting to explore, and that's why I am considering further explorations of the characters.

Thanks for the titling tip, and for the coherent, and non-condescending critique.

 

[gordo12]

Regarding the naming convention, when I gave Laurel "Tamsin of Sky Village" it was with a note that I'd like to develop an anthology of stories like Tamsin that related to "The Third Ring" -- an earlier story in the same world. I asked her how to associate the stories in an anthology. She responded by renaming "Tamsin of Sky Village" to "The Third Ring - Tamsin of Sky Village."

With that naming convention they'll line up alphabetically and not in the order perhaps intended? Unless each story is independent.

Wouldn't The Third Ring ch 1, 2, 3 etc give a better result for readers to follow?

 

[NotWise]

With that naming convention they'll line up alphabetically and not in the order perhaps intended? Unless each story is independent.

Wouldn't The Third Ring ch 1, 2, 3 etc give a better result for readers to follow?

I have no problem with them lining up alphabetically. They are not chapters.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I have no problem with them lining up alphabetically. They are not chapters.

That's what I was thinking as well.

But then they won't be "real stories", they will just be made up non-fiction, filled with empty details and lacking soul.

 

[AwkwardMD]

That's what I was thinking as well.

But then they won't be "real stories", they will just be made up non-fiction, filled with empty details and lacking soul.

Uh oh.

Hey, maybe instead of being catty and passive aggressive about it after thanking me, why don't you say what's on your mind like an adult?

 

[MelissaBaby]

Uh oh.

Hey, maybe instead of being catty and passive aggressive about it after thanking me, why don't you say what's on your mind like an adult?

I thanked you for taking the time to read my story and write your thoughts about it.

I try really hard to open to honest criticism, but I don't think that's what you've given me. There may be some helpful advice in there somewhere but it is indecipherable from the incoherent nonsense.

I feel pretty good about my writing, even if it doesn't fit your idiosyncratic notions of what constitutes good stories. Criticize me all you want, but please, spare me the condescending gaslighting bullshit about how disappointed you are in my "under-delivered" talent.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I thanked you for taking the time to read my story and write your thoughts about it.

I try really hard to open to honest criticism, but I don't think that's what you've given me. There may be some helpful advice in there somewhere but it is indecipherable from the incoherent nonsense.

I feel pretty good about my writing, even if it doesn't fit your idiosyncratic notions of what constitutes good stories. Criticize me all you want, but please, spare me the condescending gaslighting bullshit about how disappointed you are in my "under-delivered" talent.

If I were gaslighting you, would I do... THIS?

 

[ElectricBlue]

With that naming convention they'll line up alphabetically and not in the order perhaps intended? Unless each story is independent.

Wouldn't The Third Ring ch 1, 2, 3 etc give a better result for readers to follow?

Not if they're individual stand-alone stories with a linking theme. If they're numbered 1, 2, 3, readers will think it's one long thing, and late-comers won't start reading. That was the mistake I made with the Madelyn Chapters of my Floating World series - the first part of a five chapter set was numbered Part 06, but it wasn't clear you could pick it up without reading the previous parts (which were also stand-alones, but released closer together).

The alpha naming convention would have resolved that problem.

 

[NotWise]

What’s the maximum length of a story title? I didn’t think you could have one as long as “The Third Ring - Tamsin of Sky Village.”

Sorry, I missed this.

The form limit is thirty-five characters. "The Third Ring - Tamsin of Sky Village" is thirty-eight characters. Laurel titled it, so apparently she can override that limitation. That implies that she may have to title all of the other stories in the anthology.

 

[overwatcher]

Shit, I may have to read stories a bit different from now on. I've based a good story around the characters drawing me in to their story, plot or no plot. If they piss me off, which Elizabeth initially did and then build on their character details well all the better. Additionally I've relied on my mind to fill in a lot of the details, ie additional physical attributes etc and the colour of the character(s) and places to build on the story as it progresses which again I think happened with Elizabeth and her environment. At the end of the story I was left wanting another page to fill in some more detail about E's life and continuing story - stupid me I thought that was the goal with any good story. Didn't know there should be a procedural process for a story, thanks for that, I guess.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Shit, I may have to read stories a bit different from now on. I've based a good story around the characters drawing me in to their story, plot or no plot. If they piss me off, which Elizabeth initially did and then build on their character details well all the better. Additionally I've relied on my mind to fill in a lot of the details, ie additional physical attributes etc and the colour of the character(s) and places to build on the story as it progresses which again I think happened with Elizabeth and her environment. At the end of the story I was left wanting another page to fill in some more detail about E's life and continuing story - stupid me I thought that was the goal with any good story. Didn't know there should be a procedural process for a story, thanks for that, I guess.

Let's break it down.

-Elizabeth, a call girl, is introduced and we get some indication as to her thoughts and attitudes about her job.

-She has an encounter with a bad customer and flees.

-She retreats to her favorite bar, where she runs into a man (Ray) she has been flirting with, and who shows interest in her.

-She gets called away to meet another client and services him.

-As she heads home, she feels compelled to return to the bar and look for Ray.

-When he is not there, she impulsively goes to his studio.

-They talk, and she is open and honest with him, in direct contrast to the assumed persona she shows her clients.

-They have sex.

-She leaves, determined that she will see Ray again and feeling empowered by her encounter with him.


Elizabeth started the night running in fear and ended it feeling like a badass.

She lies to her clients but opens up to Ray.

Her sex with her client is impersonal and entirely for his benefit. With Ray, he is attentive to her, her needs are foremost. When they fuck, that she is on top is not an idle, "Oh, let's see, I haven't thrown in any cowgirl."

The protagonist is different at the end than she was at the beginning.

Seems like a coherent story to me.

 

[NotWise]

Seems like a coherent story to me.

As I said at the start of my comments, I shared some of AwkwardMD's concerns about your story. AMD already gave them, so I didn't give you more than my summary impression.

You asked for comments on "One Night in Detroit," but you've become very defensive about the response. I'll keep that in mind if ever you ask for comments again.

 

[KeithD]

If you've conveyed the theme of being able to be impersonal with johns but have personal feelings for a man or certain men otherwise, yes it's a story. I haven't read the story, but your summary establishes a story if that's what you wrote. I have written stories like that and then used the protagonist and some of the other characters to then add on a series of other stories. What's added on should stand as stories too, but that's a fine way to do a stories. (there's a long series of novellas in my sr71plt name, for instance, all titled "Death in" that's this--following a character through a bunch of mysteries).

 

[gordo12]

First of all it was a coherent story, I read it.

Secondly let's not forget that the event rules that this was written for placed some severe limitations on the time factor of the story. That pretty much precluded much background/character buildup.

Frankly I think she did a pretty good job with those limitations. Like someone else said it was gritty and I found myself wanting more at the end. That's success!

 

[MelissaBaby]

As I said at the start of my comments, I shared some of AwkwardMD's concerns about your story. AMD already gave them, so I didn't give you more than my summary impression.

You asked for comments on "One Night in Detroit," but you've become very defensive about the response. I'll keep that in mind if ever you ask for comments again.

It's not a question of being defensive, it's trying to wrap my head around a critique I just don't understand. How is my story not "coherent"?

 

[NotWise]

It's not a question of being defensive, it's trying to wrap my head around a critique I just don't understand. How is my story not "coherent"?

I think I've read this entire thread three times now. I don't see anyone saying your story is not coherent. As near as I can tell, the word first appears in post #42, where you brought it up.

To me, One Night in Detroit reads like a chapter -- a coherent chapter. That didn't surprise me since all of the prose you've published on Lit are chapters.

I'm probably pointing out something that you already know, but I'll do it anyway. A story usually has five components: a setting, characters, conflict, plot, and resolution. Chapters in a larger work, and brief vignettes don't need -- and generally don't have -- all the parts.

In "One Night in Detroit" I see a setting, some characters, and some actions. If you put conflict, plot or resolution into the story, then I missed them. I guess AMD missed them too, because that seems to be a large part of the critique.

I've seen a lot of well-received vignettes on Lit -- especially in the Romance category. You don't have to write a complete story to make some readers happy. On the other hand, a story with a plot and conflict that is resolved in the end gives readers a more satisfying experience.

This is maybe unrelated, but I'll bring it up anyway because it's been bothering me. I even talked to my wife about it.

The description of "One Night in Detroit" as "gritty" appeared several times in the thread, starting before I read the story. I was expecting a gritty story, but I didn't get one.

The story certainly would have been more gritty if Elizabeth hadn't gotten away from "John," but she did. The hooker on the street corner made a pretty gritty scene, but it didn't go anywhere. Elizabeth is a happy, well-paid call girl without regrets. The trick she turned was a nice rich guy from Ohio. Ray is an attentive lover, and a successful artists with the entire top floor of a building as his home and studio. Even the pot-smoking tacqueria workers were friendly and helpful.

Maybe I have a high standard for "gritty" because I live in a gritty place, but the lack of grit may have gone hand-in-hand with the lack of plot, conflict and resolution.

 

[SimonDoom]

The protagonist is different at the end than she was at the beginning.

Seems like a coherent story to me.

I'll respond to this since I used the word "coherent" in my comment on your story. It might not have been the right word to use. I thought your story was well-written and I was interested in the character. It wasn't as clear to me at the end that the protagonist had changed by the end. Could that be a mistake in reading on my part? Maybe. It was the impression I was left with when I was finished. I felt drawn into your story by your power of description, but I didn't pick up on a clear narrative arc. So I felt some of what I think AwkwardMD felt when I was done reading the story.

Don't take comments too personally. AwkwardMD has criticized things I've written and said. So have others. I often don't agree with her, but I don't take anything she says personally because I can tell she's saying what she really believes about the story, and usually backing it up intelligently, rather than just trying to be an ass to someone. I intend my comments to be taken the same way. One of the interesting, but unsettling, things about publishing a story is how differently it can hit different people. That's just the way it is.

It's OK for us (meaning all of us, not just you and me) to disagree about how we see stories. My view is we learn by listening to what others have to say even if we don't agree with them.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I think I've read this entire thread three times now. I don't see anyone saying your story is not coherent. As near as I can tell, the word first appears in post #42, where you brought it up.

To me, One Night in Detroit reads like a chapter -- a coherent chapter. That didn't surprise me since all of the prose you've published on Lit are chapters.

I'm probably pointing out something that you already know, but I'll do it anyway. A story usually has five components: a setting, characters, conflict, plot, and resolution. Chapters in a larger work, and brief vignettes don't need -- and generally don't have -- all the parts.

In "One Night in Detroit" I see a setting, some characters, and some actions. If you put conflict, plot or resolution into the story, then I missed them. I guess AMD missed them too, because that seems to be a large part of the critique.

I've seen a lot of well-received vignettes on Lit -- especially in the Romance category. You don't have to write a complete story to make some readers happy. On the other hand, a story with a plot and conflict that is resolved in the end gives readers a more satisfying experience.

This is maybe unrelated, but I'll bring it up anyway because it's been bothering me. I even talked to my wife about it.

The description of "One Night in Detroit" as "gritty" appeared several times in the thread, starting before I read the story. I was expecting a gritty story, but I didn't get one.

The story certainly would have been more gritty if Elizabeth hadn't gotten away from "John," but she did. The hooker on the street corner made a pretty gritty scene, but it didn't go anywhere. Elizabeth is a happy, well-paid call girl without regrets. The trick she turned was a nice rich guy from Ohio. Ray is an attentive lover, and a successful artists with the entire top floor of a building as his home and studio. Even the pot-smoking tacqueria workers were friendly and helpful.

Maybe I have a high standard for "gritty" because I live in a gritty place, but the lack of grit may have gone hand-in-hand with the lack of plot, conflict and resolution.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I really could not care less if what I wrote was technically a "story" or a vignette". I wrote it for the One Night event, and approached it as such. One night in the life of the protagonist. I would like to do more, to use this as a table setting for more interaction between the characters, as I indicated in starting this thread. But I wrote something I thought was faithful to the task. Maybe I did well, maybe I didn't. But I would hope my story would be critiqued for what it is, not for what someone else thinks it should have been.

And, by the way, the other criteria for the event was to emphasize place. I tried be true to that as well, and in response, have been told my description of place is just a lot of "empty details". Hard to feel like such a critique is well meant.

As for "gritty", I never used that word to describe the story. If other people's comments gave you expectations that were not met, I'm sorry that you were disappointed, but I hardly feel responsible.

 

[KeithD]

Well, the thing is that you came here asking for discussion on your story, showing that either you aren't confident enough to decide whether to continue it without permission from the "committee" or that you are seeking extra publicity for the submission. In either case you are, in fact, being defensive when the discussion goes to the content of the story rather than to the publicity of it. Be a confident writer; make your own decisions on whether and how to continue it. It's coming across that you only need the strokes.