open it up and find out

[Laurel]

Uhh...The problem with Electric Cars is that they hide the fact that the use fossil fuels
for power, and are grossly inefficient in their use of fossil fuels. Beyond that it's a
wonderful concept.

Yes, but electrical plants (where the fossil fuels are converted to energy) are much easier to regulate then a million cars, and thus less apt to create pollution. Also, there's other ways to create electricity - wind, solar, even (and I know I'm starting shit here) nuclear.

YoungOne - we don't want the prices to go down drastically, we want them to be as steady as the prices of other commodities. Gas prices go up every summer - why? Because oil isn't in season? C'mon... Because people drive more in the summer (vacations, day trips, etc) and they know they can gouge us. It's not your dad's fault, but the oil industry's more corrupt than, um, boxing...lol And they ARE ripping the earth apart ot get to the black stuff, and burning it DOES pollute the air. And I'm willing to bet it's not the most efficient energy way, that if we actually put some real money & effort into finding better energy sources or refining the wind/solar/nuclear/etc., we'd discover renewable power that didn't pollute, at least not to the extent that oil does. Oil's a bad deal. You say you want your dad to keep his job, right? Then you'd better pray that the guys above him start to play fair - otherwise, people are gonna get fed up & find other, cheaper energy sources and your dad's gonna have to find a new career.

[This message has been edited by Laurel (edited 03-16-2000).]

 

[John1965]

I whole heartedly agree. I am a mountain biker but a lot of my riding isn't for fun anymore. I ride to the store, to friends houses, anywhere that saves money!

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by YoungOne:
But if the prices go down drastically like you all want then he will not only receive a pay cut but probably a loss in his job.

I'm old enough to remember being sent to the gas station with a gallon can and a quarter to get gas for the lawnmower. Then getting my butt whacked for spending the change on candy.

I can never remeber a time when gas prices went up because of labor costs. I can remember several news stories about the plight of oil workers who lost their jobs because of new drilling technologies and computerizing of refineries.

Some one mentioned early in this thread, that oile prices are about $10 a barrel less than the last time prices skyrocketed without reason.

I think your stepdad's job is more in danger from the greed of OPEC than the price of gas returning to something reasonable.

If gas prices rose in sych with inflation and the cost of living, then I would have no real problem with high gas prices. American's need an excuse to find alternative means of transportation. We have an obsession with being independent. We want to be able to go when and where we wish, without waiting for anyone else to be ready to go to the same destination.

Our love affair with 'personal transportation' AKA cars, and our national obsession with squezzing as much activity into each hour as possible, combine to make us extremely resistant to any thought of waiting 15 minutes for a city bus.

'Big Oil' and 'Detroit' have conspired in the past to eliminate more efficient modes of transportation. The loss of Los Angeles' Red Line rail system is a classic example.

Originally posted by Lasher99Uhh...The problem with Electric Cars is that they hide the fact that the use fossil fuels for power, and are grossly inefficient in their use of fossil fuels. Beyond that it's a wonderful concept.

Current Electric Car technology is not completely dependent on fossil fuel generated power. There have been advances in fuel cell technology, and solar power. Even with a dependence on fossil fuel generated electricity, they are still less harmful to the environment than internal combustion engines.

First, they centralize the use of fossil fuels in generating plants that produce fewer of certain types of pollutants.

Second, they transfer the burden of consumption to cheaper fossil fuels away from oil. Coal, recycled tires, natural gas, alchohol, and methane can all be used to generate electrical power.

Third, if we can transfer our dependence from the gas pump to the power outlet, we can concentrate on eliminating pollution from a single large point instead of millions of separate ones. It's more effective to convert one coal fired power plant to a cleaner kind of coal (or replace it with a Nuclear or Geothermal plant), than it is to get millions of Americans to buy a new car.

 

[Lasher]

It's more effective to convert one coal fired power plant to a cleaner kind of coal (or replace it with a Nuclear or Geothermal plant), than it is to get millions of Americans to buy a new car.

Guess what? You're talking about getting 100 million Americans to buy new cars.

I never said I thought electric cars were a bad idea, I believe the words I used are, "..it's a wonderful concept". But I'm also a realist. Guess what happens 6 months from now when the right people use the right leverage and the price of gas goes back to $1.15 a gallon? No one in this country will be talking about electric cars, or alternative energy sources or public transportation. Obviously the few people that really care will be, but most people will forget all about it. The people who were bitching about gas lines in 1973 were bitching about something else in 1974. It's the nature of the American people.

Here's something to get all you nuts out there thinking. How do you know that this isn't part of some master plan to make sure George W. gets elected president. Don't tell me he doesn't have a few friends in the oil industry. How soon will we start hearing about the present administration and how it sat back and let gas prices rise over 100% in less than a year??? Hmmmmm????? Chew on that one.

Oh, and while I'm bitching, just a little word about public transportation. You know why American's don't like public transportation?? Cause it sucks!!. I live in the city with the 14th largest public transportation system in this Country. Once a week I'm stuck using it to go to work because of my wife's work schedule. With practically door to door service (I get on a trolley 2 blocks from home, and off a bus 1 block from work), and only 1 transfer, it takes me 55 minutes to get to work. The same trip in my car takes 12 minutes (I can do it in 9 if I catch all the lights!!). Plus in my car I don't have to smell all the fruitcakes that ride the bus, nor do I have to wait 4 minutes for some damn old woman to decide if she wants to get off at this stop, or the one 60 yards down the street!!! It would be very easy for me to use public transportation every day, but i'm not gonna do it. Give me my car, "...or let the heaven's be damned!!".

OOPS, dammit, almost forgot. Current electric car technology uses 12 times as much energy to get the same performance as an internal combustion engine.


[This message has been edited by Lasher99 (edited 03-16-2000).]

 

[YoungOne]

Yes gas prices have gone up and yes y'all keep complaining about it. But what about other things we as consumers buy daily? The price of bread, milk, clothing, tampons, condoms, etc. have all gone up but do we bitch about all of that? If you are gonna gripe about one gripe about them all.

 

[Flagg]

For the record Laurel et al, this was never intended to be a US bashing session. But when idiot boy takes a cheap pseudo-imperialist swipe at my country simply because I say that I believe in taxes then you can be sure that I'm going to give him hell.

The real issue here is environmental awareness. The necessary step to taking a bit of control over the damage we are all causing is to comprimise ourselves. Use public transport as much as possible even if it does take longer and be conscious of wasting energy.

There is a lot going on with cars at the moment. I think it is Vauxhall (do you have that over there?) which has already launched a new model that runs half on friendly gas and half on electric. Looks and runs exactly like any other car, pollutes less and is cheaper to run. I'd have thought people would be willing to buy a car like that wouldn't they?

Nogard - get off your hands and knees and stop pleading forgiveness - nobody cares.

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Lasher99:

Guess what? You're talking about getting 100 million Americans to buy new cars.

I never said I thought electric cars were a bad idea, I believe the words I used are, "..it's a wonderful concept". But I'm also a realist.

I never said it would be easy. <G>

Most of those 100 million Americans will be buying new cars within the next five years. If they could be induced or coerced into buying an alternate fueled vehicle, there would be more alternate fuel vehicles built, and better ones as well.

Like you, I'm a realist. It would pretty much take an outright ban of the sales gasoline powered vehicles to accomplish it.

A car like the Vauxhall mentioned above might be a seller if GM would market it here. (Yes we have Vauxhalls here. We just call them Chevrolets, Buicks, and the other GM brand names.)

Until 'Big Oil goes broke and no longer can afford congress, there's not much chance of any sudden change.

Your 55 minute public transport versus 12 minute drive scenario is exactly what I meant about the need to change American attitudes.

The bus route that runs past my home is a fifteen minute plus or minus forty-five minute schedule. I'm convinced it's their punishement route, where they assign the drivers that can't drive or tell time.

I still take the bus when I am not concerned about time, or ride my bike for short trips(less than five miles).

 

[Flagg]

I commend you Weird Harold!

That's exactly the point - there needs to be a massive change of attitudes the world over if we want to see progress.

I used to run a car but I almost killed myself and my girlfriend in it in December and I have decided to postpone buying a new one and rely instead on public transport. I'm not scared of driving again but I just feel that a car is an unnecessary luxury in my particular circumstances.

Peace to all environmental warriors!

 

[Laurel]

Guess what happens 6 months from now
when the right people use the right leverage and the price of gas goes back to $1.15 a
gallon? No one in this country will be talking about electric cars, or alternative energy
sources or public transportation.

That is, unfortunately, the absolute truth. It's like a woman in an abusive relationship - she won't think about getting out unless it's really bad. And as soon as it gets that bad and she's almost out the door, he comes home with flowers and everything's all right again. Human nature - bites you in the ass every time.

There is a lot going on with cars at the moment. I think it is Vauxhall (do you have that
over there?) which has already launched a new model that runs half on friendly gas and
half on electric. Looks and runs exactly like any other car, pollutes less and is cheaper to
run. I'd have thought people would be willing to buy a car like that wouldn't they?

They have those over here - there's a couple of different manufacturers who make 'em. I think the US placed pressure on the major automakers over here, forcing them to have an electric hybrid of some sort on the market by a certain date. A few of our local politicians purchased 'em & had TV news crews film 'em driving around to try to get people to buy them, but I think it's gonna take more than a publicity stunt to do that. The problem is that oil companies exert too much influence, so everyone's afraid to promote these vehicles to the extent it would take to get them into people's driveways. Maybe someday that'll change... All it takes is for some brave soul to develop an awesome marketing campaign and make the cars hip. They're priced right, and the money they save on gas is a bonus. They just need a good image... of course, this is coming from a burnout who just came off of 7 years in advertising design, so I may overestimate the power of the plug...

Flagg - how receptive to electric cars are the British? How common are they? BTW, I was always disappointed that the Smart cars weren't a bigger hit. I love the little buggers - I wanted to buy one, but there's no US retailers, and having one shipped over is way too expensive.

I used to run a car but I almost killed myself and my girlfriend in it in December and I
have decided to postpone buying a new one and rely instead on public transport.

See - if you have the luxury of good, reliable public transportation (most don't) and live reasonably close to your work etc. (most people I know commute 15 minutes - 3 hours every day), then that's great. Southern California is a sprawl. Not only does it take hours to get from Point A to Point B (trips that take 15 minutes to half an hour by car take 2-3 hours via bus), it's also very expensive. So while it's all very well & good for people to say "just take the bus/trolley/etc.", it isn't an option for everyone. And no, we can't all just move to wherever you're living - and believe me, even if we could, I don't think you'd want that.

 

[Flagg]

Oh to the contrary Laurel darling - I'd love a visit from you lot ... only problem is, I'm not sure if some of you would be allowed through customs...

 

[Weird Harold]

Originally posted by Laurel:
See - if you have the luxury of good, reliable public transportation (most don't) and live reasonably close to your work etc. (most people I know commute 15 minutes - 3 hours every day), then that's great. Southern California is a sprawl. Not only does it take hours to get from Point A to Point B ... it's also very expensive. So while it's all very well & good for people to say "just take the bus/trolley/etc.", it isn't an option for everyone.

Here in the Las Vegas metropolitan area, the bus routes are about a mile apart, and a single trip is $1.25 or two tokens. I haven't bought a new bag of tokens since the rates went up so I'm not sure what they are going for now. They were about 75% of the cost of paying cash. They're cheaper than a tank of gas though.

I don't leave the house often enough to buy a monthly pass on a regular basis, but they were $30 before the rate hike, probably about $40 now. That's still only about a tank and a half of gas to go anywhere the bus system does as many times as you can get on and off the bus in a month.

It's cheaper than buying gas, and I don't have to find a place to park the bus on the Strip. (not that I go to the Strip very often. That's tourist territory. Nice for keeping me free of State income tax, but too crowded for my tastes.)

It takes planning and a knowledge of the bus schedules to travel effectively by bus in this town, but in the long run it's cheaper. Healthier too, both on an environmental basis, and a personal basis. Walking half a mile to your destination from the bus route and back is good for you even when the Temp hits the triple digit mark in summer.

From what little I've seen about the public transport system in Southern California, it's getting better. But then, better than non-existent leaves a lot of room to go before it's good. <G>

 

[Laurel]

If bread went up $1.00/loaf every summer for no reason, I would gripe, but it doesn't. There's a difference, YoungOne, between normall inflation and price gouging. Read Fallen's post at the top of this thread - he makes a point about how the price of gas is going up must faster than the price of oil. If you can't see the difference, then I really don't know what to tell you.

 

[Rosebud]

I am not sure about the facts of this but I heard that a letter is going around the internet telling everyone to protest the price of gas by not buying any the whole weekend of April 8th. Anyone else here this?

 

[Renee]

Rosebud the following is the letter I received via email regarding the Gas Out

"Anytime we can stick it to them it's a good day.

Last year on April 30,1999, a gas out was staged across Canada and
the U.S. to bring the price of gas down, and it worked. It's time to
do something about it again.

This time, lets make it for three days instead of just one. The oil
cartel decided to slow production to drive up gasoline prices. Lets
see how many Canadian\American people we can get to ban together for
a three day period in April, NOT TO BUY ANY GASOLINE, during those
three days. LETS HAVE A GAS OUT.

Do not buy any gasoline from APRIL 7, 2000, THROUGH APRIL 9, 2000.
Buy what you need before the dates listed above, or after, but try
not to buy any during the GAS OUT. If you want to help, just send this
to everyone you know and ask them to do the same.

We brought the prices down once before, and we can do it again!
Come on North America lets stand together.

WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

Even if you receive this 100 times keep passing it around, this way
you know everyone is being informed and no one will forget!!!!!!!!"

 

[Lasher]

Nice idea, but if I was running a service station, come the morning of the 10th I'd have gas up to $1.80 a gallon or whatever - there's your boycott and thank you very much. Being selective like that won't do a damn bit of good, eventually everyone's gonna need to fill their tanks. You might as well spend the weekend sacrificing virgins to the Goddess Petrolia for all the good it's gonna do. The only bright spot I see to the boycott is that I'll be travelling that weekend and hopefully it'll keep traffic off the Turnpike!!