Opposite gender POV: why?
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cymbidia
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Lit has such adventurous and talented writers; it's amazing to see what comes from your minds and inspiring to be among you. I'm awed at the willingness, even eagerness, of so many to delve into a POV which is so fundamentally alien.
That said, i still don't think i can write from the male POV. Part of my own reluctance is that for me to write what i write (BDSM, male Dom, female sub) from a male POV, i'd not only have to verbalize a man's thoughts, needs, and reactions (difficult enough) but i'd have to do it from a Dom's headspace, too. Too much for me!
But it continues to fascinate me that so many of you can, and so well, too.
Ahem:
(Careful with that answer now!)
That said, i still don't think i can write from the male POV. Part of my own reluctance is that for me to write what i write (BDSM, male Dom, female sub) from a male POV, i'd not only have to verbalize a man's thoughts, needs, and reactions (difficult enough) but i'd have to do it from a Dom's headspace, too. Too much for me!
But it continues to fascinate me that so many of you can, and so well, too.
Ahem:
Where might sexual submissives fit into your glowing definition of "forward and engaged women"? Just wondering...aldenbradley said:
(Careful with that answer now!)
I think you've got the horse before the cart there cym. For me, and I suspect for any writer that has written in the opposite gender first person, it is the story that determines the proper perspective. If you want to write stories that heavily derive from you own experiences then it is quite understandable that it would be difficult to write in the opposite gender. If it is a story that is more removed from you personally, then let the context of the story drive both the "person" and the gender.
I think I can describe my own situation in another way. If my store pertains to something that may be a part of my fantasies where I more or less would like to be the recipient, then I tend to write in the male gender first person or in the third person. If I want to have the female character be the beneficiary of most of the attention then I skip the middleman so to speak. If I didn't, then I would have to provide pleasure and emotion as seen or perceived by the third person or by the male character(s) that are providing that pleasure. It is much easier to climb right into her head and take hold of the controls. If I want total ecstasy, then I can directly manipulate her feelings, emotions, senses, speech, whatever. (Now THAT's power!) If you look at it that way, it is the lazy way out.
Don't ever worry about not being able to describe the opposite gender "accurately". (Hey. Doesn't bother me if I don't get it right!) Write it YOUR way. Also, remember that there are a lot of people out there and all are different in some way. There may be a guy or guys that would react and feel EXACTLY as you describe.
You are thinking about this way too much. Your homework is to write a story in the opposite gender first person. Don't post it if you don't want too. Do it just for fun. Isn't that why you write anyway?
Mr. Neb
I think I can describe my own situation in another way. If my store pertains to something that may be a part of my fantasies where I more or less would like to be the recipient, then I tend to write in the male gender first person or in the third person. If I want to have the female character be the beneficiary of most of the attention then I skip the middleman so to speak. If I didn't, then I would have to provide pleasure and emotion as seen or perceived by the third person or by the male character(s) that are providing that pleasure. It is much easier to climb right into her head and take hold of the controls. If I want total ecstasy, then I can directly manipulate her feelings, emotions, senses, speech, whatever. (Now THAT's power!) If you look at it that way, it is the lazy way out.
Don't ever worry about not being able to describe the opposite gender "accurately". (Hey. Doesn't bother me if I don't get it right!) Write it YOUR way. Also, remember that there are a lot of people out there and all are different in some way. There may be a guy or guys that would react and feel EXACTLY as you describe.
You are thinking about this way too much. Your homework is to write a story in the opposite gender first person. Don't post it if you don't want too. Do it just for fun. Isn't that why you write anyway?
Mr. Neb
aldenbradley
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Sexual Submissives
Ahem.
cym wrote:
"Where might sexual submissives fit into your glowing definition of "forward and engaged women"? Just wondering...
(Careful with that answer now!)"
The descriptions are of the women I write about. I don't write about sexual submissives because, as a human and a writer, my interest is in partners, not doormats. My perception of most subs is one of dysfunction characterized by self-loathing. I know I'll get some heat about that, but it is, after all, my perception.
At some point, the DOM/sub relationship, by it's nature, decends into humiliation. My personal preference is to not glorify the subjugation, degradation, or humiliation of another individual. I am a avid fan of personal dignity and individual worth.
Quoth the masochist: "Beat me! Beat me!"
Quoth the sadist: "No."
Ahem.
cym wrote:
"Where might sexual submissives fit into your glowing definition of "forward and engaged women"? Just wondering...
(Careful with that answer now!)"
The descriptions are of the women I write about. I don't write about sexual submissives because, as a human and a writer, my interest is in partners, not doormats. My perception of most subs is one of dysfunction characterized by self-loathing. I know I'll get some heat about that, but it is, after all, my perception.
At some point, the DOM/sub relationship, by it's nature, decends into humiliation. My personal preference is to not glorify the subjugation, degradation, or humiliation of another individual. I am a avid fan of personal dignity and individual worth.
Quoth the masochist: "Beat me! Beat me!"
Quoth the sadist: "No."
Weird Harold
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cymbidia said:
Cymbidia,
I presume that you have an image of "The Perfect Dom" that you guage Doms against.
If you have that picture in your mind of what a perfect would Dom do and say, you can write that perfect Dom into your stories. Yes?
It is only a small step for you to write what you wish that Perfect Dom would think and feel as well.
With a very few perceptual differences, men and women don't think all that much alike. Your perception of what you would like the Perfect Dom or Perfect man don't have to match reality, because the "Perfect Man/Dom" don't exist.
For the few perceptual differences, you can rely on stereotypes. If you don't know what those stereotypes are, check the general board board for one of the numerous men bashing/women bashing/ he said,she said joke threads. Those jokes are funny, because there is a kernel of truth to the allegations therein.
Examples:
Male Dom describing a new whip: (sees it as a tool) "What a beautiful tool. See the fine leather and intricate braiding. There is no chance of this beauty unraveling, no siree. Top grade workmanship, this is."
Female Dom describing the same whip: (sees it as a work of art) "Isn't this a lovely thing? It's such a dark, rich purple it's almost black. It is so soft to the touch. It won't leave any permanent marks at all as it caresses you, my dear. The braiding will leave such interesting designs in your flesh while they last, though."
It's not so difficult to write from the opposite point of view. If necessary, you can caricature the opposite sex in the first draft, and take out what seems too off-the-wall based on descriptions by other authors when you edit.
cymbidia
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Re: Sexual Submissives
Unfortunately (because i can't believe you intended this) you're coming across as one who believes every platitude and stereotype ever piously mouthed by self-righteous do-gooders who seek to cleanse the world of Sin. Amen brother! Amen!
Your perception of subs, and by extension Doms and the entire scope of D/s relationships over the whole span of the millions involved in them, is quite parochial and definitely very flawed. If you seek title to any shade of intellectualism, if you promote yourself as open-minded and accepting in any way, then you need to step back, do a little research and have another look at your own, and very obvious, prejudices.
I am a lifelong submissive.
However, i am not a door-mat, i am not dysfunctional (well, no more than anyone else!), and i'm not imbued with self-loathing. Additionally, all D/s relationships do *not* descend into humiliation.
There are as many shades and colorings of what lies between people happily enmeshed within loving and mutually beneficial D/s relationships as there are between people enmeshed in vanilla relationships.
(I'm *sorry* KM; i can't remember the name we agreed to use instead of "vanilla". Come tell me what it was an i'll sub it in here.)
Your bigotry in this matter isn't flattering, aldenbradley. We've had a lot of discussion on this subject here at Lit. I urge you to go read a few of those back threads before you again post on the subject of how all subs are self-loathing doormats. Here's one link to get you started: http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=31574
Do you know any subs? Ever known any? Know anything, really, about BDSM or the lifestyle?aldenbradley said:
Unfortunately (because i can't believe you intended this) you're coming across as one who believes every platitude and stereotype ever piously mouthed by self-righteous do-gooders who seek to cleanse the world of Sin. Amen brother! Amen!
Your perception of subs, and by extension Doms and the entire scope of D/s relationships over the whole span of the millions involved in them, is quite parochial and definitely very flawed. If you seek title to any shade of intellectualism, if you promote yourself as open-minded and accepting in any way, then you need to step back, do a little research and have another look at your own, and very obvious, prejudices.
I am a lifelong submissive.
However, i am not a door-mat, i am not dysfunctional (well, no more than anyone else!), and i'm not imbued with self-loathing. Additionally, all D/s relationships do *not* descend into humiliation.
There are as many shades and colorings of what lies between people happily enmeshed within loving and mutually beneficial D/s relationships as there are between people enmeshed in vanilla relationships.
(I'm *sorry* KM; i can't remember the name we agreed to use instead of "vanilla". Come tell me what it was an i'll sub it in here.)
Your bigotry in this matter isn't flattering, aldenbradley. We've had a lot of discussion on this subject here at Lit. I urge you to go read a few of those back threads before you again post on the subject of how all subs are self-loathing doormats. Here's one link to get you started: http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=31574
Sonia_de_Beaumanoir
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apropos of nothing
Since I have been coming to Lit and trying to write, I've become very aware that D/S relationships are much more complex and varied than I could ever had imagined before. I am going to try my hand at writing one some day, but I'm going to get cym's review first.
Back on the thread subject, I particularly liked darkness_descending's characterization of drama writing, that POV is that of the character then speaking. I feel most comfortable writing in the first person, so if I have a story that requires a male POV, I want to write it that way.
Does anyone know if there are any stories here written in the form of a play? I would like to look at them.
Since I have been coming to Lit and trying to write, I've become very aware that D/S relationships are much more complex and varied than I could ever had imagined before. I am going to try my hand at writing one some day, but I'm going to get cym's review first.
Back on the thread subject, I particularly liked darkness_descending's characterization of drama writing, that POV is that of the character then speaking. I feel most comfortable writing in the first person, so if I have a story that requires a male POV, I want to write it that way.
Does anyone know if there are any stories here written in the form of a play? I would like to look at them.
aldenbradley
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Hey, cym...this is your thread. It was supposed to be about why we try to write from the opposite gender's POV.
As to the rest of it, frankly, Scarlett, etc., etc., etc.
I impose nothing on anyone. You don't want to read my stories, fine. I write for the fun of it, not for profit. Who cares what my perceptions of D/s relationships are? What difference does it make to anyone what I think?
What I observed is the pseudo-intellectual arrogance that so frequently accompanies the defensive stature of those who seek to be defined as victims. "Nobody understands me!"
You are correct, however in your original post in response to mine. There is no place in my stories for D/s-type relationships. I choose not to write about them. I think you tried to tweak me for leaving out a particular brand of lifestyle. I also avoid baby fuckers. Bigot? Okay. Let me see if I can deal with that. Give me a second. Yup. I'm okay with that.
One more thing... tweak!
Alden Bradley
<Just because I speak with an accent doesn't mean I think with an accent>
As to the rest of it, frankly, Scarlett, etc., etc., etc.
I impose nothing on anyone. You don't want to read my stories, fine. I write for the fun of it, not for profit. Who cares what my perceptions of D/s relationships are? What difference does it make to anyone what I think?
What I observed is the pseudo-intellectual arrogance that so frequently accompanies the defensive stature of those who seek to be defined as victims. "Nobody understands me!"
You are correct, however in your original post in response to mine. There is no place in my stories for D/s-type relationships. I choose not to write about them. I think you tried to tweak me for leaving out a particular brand of lifestyle. I also avoid baby fuckers. Bigot? Okay. Let me see if I can deal with that. Give me a second. Yup. I'm okay with that.
One more thing... tweak!
Alden Bradley
<Just because I speak with an accent doesn't mean I think with an accent>
DarlingBri
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Re: Sexual Submissives
Are you so attached to your own perceptions that you are not willing to be educated by someone who knows far more than you?
If you carry other, equally offensive and incorrect stereotypes, shall we let you clutch them unmolested?
For example: Black people are not as intelligent as white people, but are better basketball players.
To whatever point cym cares about your opinion and perceptions of D/s relationships, I imagine she cares because the world is educated one person at a time.
You certainly do not need to write about them. One would hope that if you ever chose to, you would first learn about them. In fact, one hopes that anyway.
cym is by no means a doormat. You however, are a closeminded fool. You may not think with an accent, but you certainly type with one.
aldenbradley said:
Are you so attached to your own perceptions that you are not willing to be educated by someone who knows far more than you?
If you carry other, equally offensive and incorrect stereotypes, shall we let you clutch them unmolested?
For example: Black people are not as intelligent as white people, but are better basketball players.
To whatever point cym cares about your opinion and perceptions of D/s relationships, I imagine she cares because the world is educated one person at a time.
You certainly do not need to write about them. One would hope that if you ever chose to, you would first learn about them. In fact, one hopes that anyway.
cym is by no means a doormat. You however, are a closeminded fool. You may not think with an accent, but you certainly type with one.
alexander tzara
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Click for Cymbidia's Opposite Gender POV game
aldenbradley
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Re: Re: Sexual Submissives
I'm not. I just don't care! People can be and do whatever they want. Whether I like it or not is immaterial. If folks get off on the D/s lifestyle, that's fine with me. I choose not to investigate microbiomechanics, either. It may be useful to some, but not to me.
So, please, rather than fling about characterizations, allow me the freedom to harbor my misconceptions and NOT write about them. K? I did not attack cym personally. Nor would I. Yet, I have been the subject of personal attacks and labeling.
I promise not to seek out and destroy those who disagree with me. I'm not about being "right". I'm only about being, and allowing others the right to be, as well.
Alden Bradley
[Edited by aldenbradley on 05-27-2001 at 03:55 PM]
DarlingBri said:
I'm not. I just don't care! People can be and do whatever they want. Whether I like it or not is immaterial. If folks get off on the D/s lifestyle, that's fine with me. I choose not to investigate microbiomechanics, either. It may be useful to some, but not to me.
So, please, rather than fling about characterizations, allow me the freedom to harbor my misconceptions and NOT write about them. K? I did not attack cym personally. Nor would I. Yet, I have been the subject of personal attacks and labeling.
I promise not to seek out and destroy those who disagree with me. I'm not about being "right". I'm only about being, and allowing others the right to be, as well.
Alden Bradley
[Edited by aldenbradley on 05-27-2001 at 03:55 PM]
cymbidia
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Please simply leave this one lie.
Any of us can choose to be deliberately ignorant of that which holds no interest for us. It is when one espouses beliefs couched as truth, even if it's just our own truth, that those who know differently are bound to step in and point out the errors.
This has been done, and the other perspective refused.
Any further discussion is pointless. No one can bring knowledge to another if that other doesn't want it.
Additionally, we all have places in our belief systems that lean toward intolerance. Ours simply aren't as obvious here and now.
So, let's let this one lie, shall we?
That said, isn't anyone besides a brave two going to play my POV game? C'mon big talkers, show me how to do it.
Any of us can choose to be deliberately ignorant of that which holds no interest for us. It is when one espouses beliefs couched as truth, even if it's just our own truth, that those who know differently are bound to step in and point out the errors.
This has been done, and the other perspective refused.
Any further discussion is pointless. No one can bring knowledge to another if that other doesn't want it.
Additionally, we all have places in our belief systems that lean toward intolerance. Ours simply aren't as obvious here and now.
So, let's let this one lie, shall we?
That said, isn't anyone besides a brave two going to play my POV game? C'mon big talkers, show me how to do it.
Subs
Alden - your comment above is fair enough, as are any and all views you choose to hold on any subject.
However, I fail to understand how you can claim the moral high ground when you've stated a preconceived judgement of a whole sexual sub type: "my interest is in partners, not doormats."
People here are broad minded, if not, like me they keep an open mind or take consul in preference to causing offence. I don't think it portrays your stated position well to label all subs doormats.
"All generalisations are dangerous, even this one"
Cym - nice to see your posts again, I'm letting it lie now but I couldn't resist a quick post)
Alden - your comment above is fair enough, as are any and all views you choose to hold on any subject.
However, I fail to understand how you can claim the moral high ground when you've stated a preconceived judgement of a whole sexual sub type: "my interest is in partners, not doormats."
People here are broad minded, if not, like me they keep an open mind or take consul in preference to causing offence. I don't think it portrays your stated position well to label all subs doormats.
"All generalisations are dangerous, even this one"
Cym - nice to see your posts again, I'm letting it lie now but I couldn't resist a quick post
)
G
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Late two cents here...
So far, The Rape (found in the Extreme/Non consent area) is the only completed story I have in first person POV, and it was written in the male perspective. It was my first ever attempt on writing a story from the opposite sex view. I did it because I saw it as a challenge. Something new, something different. It was a story that I wrote many years back, and my first submission to Lit. Going back and looking at it now, I think I could do better. I think writing from the male perspective may be something I shall do again in the future.
~Linds
cymbidia said:
So far, The Rape (found in the Extreme/Non consent area) is the only completed story I have in first person POV, and it was written in the male perspective. It was my first ever attempt on writing a story from the opposite sex view. I did it because I saw it as a challenge. Something new, something different. It was a story that I wrote many years back, and my first submission to Lit. Going back and looking at it now, I think I could do better. I think writing from the male perspective may be something I shall do again in the future.
~Linds
SpectreT
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Well, I got my post up in the Mr. Nebs Homework thread. The only thing at all tough for me was getting into the "headspace" of a hetero woman. Men have never been my thing, and for a long time I wondered why women are interested in us at all. <shrug>. That said, 100 words was WAY too short to get any kind of feel for a character out.
cym, to see a better example of my opposite gender POV writing, check out all three parts of "Tuesday" I've got up here. Just bear in mind that it's supposed to be a little light-hearted and goofy.
cym, to see a better example of my opposite gender POV writing, check out all three parts of "Tuesday" I've got up here. Just bear in mind that it's supposed to be a little light-hearted and goofy.
Ray Dario
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I really wanted to say this in the "Mr. Nebs Homework" thread but felt that there it would detract from the story to much to have an extended post, off subject so to speak.
I get the feeling that Mr. Neb and others believe that "first person" is the only writing style that has a POV. This simply isn't true. Third person simi-omniscient has a point of view. The POV is the person whose shoulder you are looking over or the character whose mind you are getting into. The POV can change during the story but there is always a POV.
A changing POV allows the writer to explore as many of the characters as he/she wants and can be very effective. A writer should choose the writing style that is best for the story. If the story is all about a single character then first person works well, unless the person dies before the end of the story. A good example of a story where I felt first person was appropriate is "Primal Lust". I felt it was appropriate because the story was all about the main character. There was another character in the story, but they were in a purely supporting cast for this story.
Most of my stories involve multiple characters, both male and female, and I choose to write third person to allow me to explore the emotions and motivations of more of the characters.
Okay, my rant is over. Even though I have presented this as authoritative, it is just opinion and I would love to hear differing opinions.
Ray
I get the feeling that Mr. Neb and others believe that "first person" is the only writing style that has a POV. This simply isn't true. Third person simi-omniscient has a point of view. The POV is the person whose shoulder you are looking over or the character whose mind you are getting into. The POV can change during the story but there is always a POV.
A changing POV allows the writer to explore as many of the characters as he/she wants and can be very effective. A writer should choose the writing style that is best for the story. If the story is all about a single character then first person works well, unless the person dies before the end of the story. A good example of a story where I felt first person was appropriate is "Primal Lust". I felt it was appropriate because the story was all about the main character. There was another character in the story, but they were in a purely supporting cast for this story.
Most of my stories involve multiple characters, both male and female, and I choose to write third person to allow me to explore the emotions and motivations of more of the characters.
Okay, my rant is over. Even though I have presented this as authoritative, it is just opinion and I would love to hear differing opinions.
Ray
Nah. I don't think that first person is the only style that has a POV. I think what you meant was that first person is the only one that can have a gender but I don't think that either.
Third person can be genderized, although it usually isn't. Writing in third person with the emphasis on a character of the opposite sex with respect to the author may be considered difficult for some but I think it is easier than if in the first person. With the first person perspective, the author essentially becomes a virtual participant and vicariously experiences what the character experiences. Using "I" and "we" as a female character when you are a man and vise versa can be intimidating.
But hey. It's just another way to have fun when writing, right?
Third person can be genderized, although it usually isn't. Writing in third person with the emphasis on a character of the opposite sex with respect to the author may be considered difficult for some but I think it is easier than if in the first person. With the first person perspective, the author essentially becomes a virtual participant and vicariously experiences what the character experiences. Using "I" and "we" as a female character when you are a man and vise versa can be intimidating.
But hey. It's just another way to have fun when writing, right?
SpectreT
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Exactly. The only down side to this "challenge" scenario in the homework thread is that one post can radically change the direction and tone of the character. A seemigly somewhat prudish and uptight woman doesn't even think something like "smallcox", or phrases like "You can't churn butter with a toothpick", for just one example. Jack has gone from being a basically nice guy to insensitive jerk and back a few times now, too. The short posting space allowed by the "rules" is also somwhat biased against being prosaic or descriptive, two things that, IMHO, are necessary for a reader to get a "feel" for a character. As a side note, I cannot write in any style but first-person, at least not well. Third person omniscient or semi-omniscient is too far removed from the character and story for me to maintain convincingly.
Ray Dario
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Mr. Neb I read your response and all I can say is: "Huh?"
You lost me about the genderized thing. A third person POV revolves around the character on whose shoulder you are perched or whose mind you are in. That character has a gender: Male, Female, Hermaphrodite, or Eunuch but still a gender. Therefore the POV has a gender.
No, I got the mistaken impression you thought POV was restricted to First Person. Sorry I put words in your mouth.
Ray
You lost me about the genderized thing. A third person POV revolves around the character on whose shoulder you are perched or whose mind you are in. That character has a gender: Male, Female, Hermaphrodite, or Eunuch but still a gender. Therefore the POV has a gender.
No, I got the mistaken impression you thought POV was restricted to First Person. Sorry I put words in your mouth.
Ray
Hey Ray,
Not necessarily. The third person does not have to have a gender. The third person also does not have to have the shoulder perched perspecitve of just one character, main or otherwise. The third person can, and many times does, have a more universal perspective with no gender per se. Kind of like if God were writing.
The third person can also be very personal as in the case of some narratives, much like stories that take place in the past of the narrator. (The best at this is Jean Shepherd of "A Christmas Story" fame.)
Neb
Not necessarily. The third person does not have to have a gender. The third person also does not have to have the shoulder perched perspecitve of just one character, main or otherwise. The third person can, and many times does, have a more universal perspective with no gender per se. Kind of like if God were writing.
The third person can also be very personal as in the case of some narratives, much like stories that take place in the past of the narrator. (The best at this is Jean Shepherd of "A Christmas Story" fame.)
Neb
cymbidia
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[Edited by cymbidia on 05-31-2001 at 11:34 AM]
Weird Harold
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SpectreT said:
I think the wide variations in personlity displayed by "Mirella" and "Jack" have more to do with people trying to present as big a challenge as possible for the next person to take up the character than it does with trying to practice cross-gendered POV.
As far as that thread being in First or Third person, I chose third person, because if every post is from "I" it tends to get confusing.
With regard to making an opposite gendered character believeable, I don't think it makes a great deal of difference whether it's phrased "I thought", or "She thought" It is mainly in the thoughts and dialogue which the difficulty in understanding the other sex well enough to be believable comes into play.
Dialogue, whether Internal (thoughts) or External (speech), is always first person, present tense.
The only way to avoid writing cross-gendered viewpoints, if there is more than one gender in a story, is to consciously avoid writing any dialogue for opposite gendered characters.
Since preventing characters from speaking almost always reduces them to one dimensional "Barbie and Ken dolls." learning to write cross-gendered is an essential skill for any writer wishing to become a "good" writer.
