Our Debt

[ll74]

An objective view of our debt

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/datasets/debt-to-the-penny/debt-to-the-penny

 

[ishtat]

Up until about 2 years ago, The Peoples Republic of China held over $1Trillion in US government debt.They have quietly and systematically reduced and diversified that holding by $250 Billion. Still, they are along with Japan the largest Foreign holders of US government securities. Should American taxpayers be concerned that they are paying China so much in debt servicing costs, or is the sudden reduction in China's support even worse, indicating a loss of confidence in the medium/long term value of the $US?

 

[ll74]

Up until about 2 years ago, The Peoples Republic of China held over $1Trillion in US government debt.They have quietly and systematically reduced and diversified that holding by $250 Billion. Still, they are along with Japan the largest Foreign holders of US government securities. Should American taxpayers be concerned that they are paying China so much in debt servicing costs, or is the sudden reduction in China's support even worse, indicating a loss of confidence in the medium/long term value of the $US?

I'd like a source if you can provide

 

[MajorRewrite]

Never seen that source before. Excellent.

National debt held by the public added during their term:

Biden $7.2 trillion ($1.8 trillion per year)
Trump’s second term $3.5 trillion so far ($2.1 trillion per year)

It’s a bad performance by everyone concerned.

 

[Pad_Foot]

Never seen that source before. Excellent.

National debt held by the public added during their term:

Biden $7.2 trillion ($1.8 trillion per year)
Trump’s second term $3.5 trillion so far ($2.1 trillion per year)

It’s a bad performance by everyone concerned.

Add in Trump’s FIRST term??

What was the total cost of Covid on the debt that was in major part due to Trump not wanting to scare us with what China must have shared about Covid being airborne and worse than the “flu” ?? This is NOT counting the loss in American and AmeriKKKan lives and what the tax income from them would have been!

 

[ishtat]

I'd like a source if you can provide

No single source but once every month I attend an entity responsible for the investment and management of Billions in Pensions and Superannuation funds.We draw information from numerous sources particularly major central banks ,national statistical agencies and actuaries/financial experts reports on same. We don't pay much attention to politicians and especially the popular media. They are interested in whatever the daily scandal might be. However, when politicians start interfering in the operations of major national financial institutions the ensuing loss of confidence in major currencies can become very serious very quickly. Typically history shows that Institutions can protect a currency but not to an unlimited extent.

 

[OralAllOver]

Up until about 2 years ago, The Peoples Republic of China held over $1Trillion in US government debt.They have quietly and systematically reduced and diversified that holding by $250 Billion. Still, they are along with Jap

Up until about 2 years ago, The Peoples Republic of China held over $1Trillion in US government debt.They have quietly and systematically reduced and diversified that holding by $250 Billion. Still, they are along with Japan the largest Foreign holders of US government securities. Should American taxpayers be concerned that they are paying China so much in debt servicing costs, or is the sudden reduction in China's support even worse, indicating a loss of confidence in the medium/long term value of the $US?

When you owe X $100,000, you have a problem

When you owe X $1,000,000,000,000, X has a problem

 

[OralAllOver]

Format fix

When you owe X $100,000, you have a problem

When you owe X $1,000,000,000,000, X has a problem

 

[OralAllOver]

Never seen that source before. Excellent.

National debt held by the public added during their term:

Biden $7.2 trillion ($1.8 trillion per year)
Trump’s second term $3.5 trillion so far ($2.1 trillion per year)

It’s a bad performance by everyone concerned.

Hold on, hold on
Biden had hightened expenses and lowered revenue from 3 years of pandemic and knock-on effects from earlier. The admin fixed 99% of the economy for Trump.

Trump then handled the US economy with the same deft hand he brought to his Atlantic City casinos.


Similarly, Bush jr had 7 years and 7 months of prosperity only to tank the economy and initiate bankruptcy-inducing wars
This disaster required huge outlays by Obama.

It's a pattern: Republicans are shockingly wasteful in good times, then habd off the sinking boat for Democrats to repair

 

[ishtat]

It's a pattern: Republicans are shockingly wasteful in good times, then habd off the sinking boat for Democrats to repair

It is fairly readily apparent that neither party has any serious policy plans to deal with this issue.They both share a strong incentive to kick the can down the road until at least November 2028. Higher taxes and less public spending are necessary.

 

[OralAllOver]

What are you talking about? This both-sides-ism is pathetic given Trump is on 1 side

1) Restore the IRS to its prior normal state. Republicans ("party of law and order and honesty") evicerated it do that tax criminals could prosper ever more
2) Capital gains and related taxed at higher rate than labor. (Remember the Greatest Generation? Top personal income tax rate in 1959 was 91%. Read that again)
3) Put military on budgets. They suck but actually make for tight pussies er ships.
4) Subsidies (cash payments!) to oil companies? Are u fn kidding me? Bye bye tax breaks


Side note: 40% of the Mississippi State budget is federal $. That's a lot of California money. And those assholes tell California how to run an economy

 

[MajorRewrite]

What are you talking about? This both-sides-ism is pathetic given Trump is on 1 side

Neither Biden nor Trump showed any concern about deficits or the resulting mountain of national debt.

Biden spent heavily to spur the economy out of the pandemic recession. That’s good, but there was little effort to reduce spending after the economy was rolling. And he didn’t raise taxes on the rich.

Trump cuts taxes on the rich and spends like a reckless man-baby. $500 billion more for the military!

It’s one of the few true “both sides” problems. Politicians completely ignore the issue, except to try to blame the other party.

 

[OralAllOver]

Neither Biden nor Trump showed any concern about deficits or the resulting mountain of national debt.

Biden spent heavily to spur the economy out of the pandemic recession. That’s good, but there was little effort to reduce spending after the economy was rolling. And he didn’t raise taxes on the rich.

Trump cuts taxes on the rich and spends like a reckless man-baby. $500 billion more for the military!

It’s one of the few true “both sides” problems. Politicians completely ignore the issue, except to try to blame the other party.

That's mostly fair. Care to opine on Bush jr's tax cuts, wars and defenestration of his economy? (I was polite enough not to bring up Clinton). Trump obviously (please don't argue this) fucks regular Americans, present and future, to further enrich the massively rich who wet Trump's beak.
For what it's worth, I'm no fan of corporate democrats, but sleepwalking liberals are heroes compared to republicans who blow up their own house

 

[RightField]

Hold on, hold on
Biden had hightened expenses and lowered revenue from 3 years of pandemic and knock-on effects from earlier. The admin fixed 99% of the economy for Trump.

Trump then handled the US economy with the same deft hand he brought to his Atlantic City casinos.


Similarly, Bush jr had 7 years and 7 months of prosperity only to tank the economy and initiate bankruptcy-inducing wars
This disaster required huge outlays by Obama.

It's a pattern: Republicans are shockingly wasteful in good times, then habd off the sinking boat for Democrats to repair

Trump to Biden: After the big spike in COVID spending, a big part being wages paid to people in shut down northern cities, people were going back to work and the spending was declining quickly. When Biden was elected, he put the IRA in place which restored spending to near COVID levels even as spending on COVID continued to decline. We didn't need that spending and that, combined with the administration's new policies against fossil fuels (the DOE sec announced, "the era of fossil fuels is over!" and other environmental curbs reduced supply and sparked inflation.

Bush: Bush has brought the deficit down to $170T just before the last mid-terms. Pelosi and Reid won control of Congress (where spending bills are written) and went on a spending spree for the remainder of Bush' term. In their first year, they tripled the deficit and then added another 50% growth the following year. At the end of that second year, the tightening of the rates (from excess Government spending) pushed some marginal loans into default and the whole house of cards fell. The bad loans were made at the insistence of Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer mentioning that it was "unfair" that only rich people could afford to buy real estate and they loosened lending standards. Bush, who'd originally been in favor of the "ownership" community, started drawing back and famously wrote an open letter published in the NYT warning that it could be bad if we relaxed lending standards. Of course, when the economy crashed, Frank, Schumer and the rest deftly blamed the banks for making the loans they (Dems) demanded.

Note: In every government shutdown that has to do with finances (all but two were about finances), it's the Dems demanding more spending and the Republicans holding the line or advocating for less spending. Every Single Time. Dems spend, Republicans try to stand up for the taxpayers while trying to hold true to the Constitution and small Government. Defense spending as a % of GDP has been falling since the end of the Korean War. On the other hand, Federal Spending on social programs and similar handouts has increased from 12% of Federal Spending in the 60's to over 70% now.

Tax revenue has been steady over the last 4 decades around 17% of GDP, tax policy notwithstanding, but spending continues to increase. The Dems seem to be winning the budget battles over time, but it's what has given us a $40T debt.

 

[Rotadom]

Our debt? Lol.



If I don't spend $500 at the grocery store, that means I just made $500, but, boy, I sure am hungry.

 

[MajorRewrite]

In every government shutdown that has to do with finances (all but two were about finances), it's the Dems demanding more spending and the Republicans holding the line or advocating for less spending. Every Single Time. Dems spend, Republicans try to stand up for the taxpayers while trying to hold true to the Constitution and small Government.

The Republicans have never cut spending. They promise and lie and bluster. And increase spending.

Defense spending as a % of GDP has been falling since the end of the Korean War. On the other hand, Federal Spending on social programs and similar handouts has increased from 12% of Federal Spending in the 60's to over 70% now.

You talk about soaring defense spending as a percentage of GDP, but not other spending. Why is that? Overall government spending has steadily fallen as a percentage of GDP.

And the “social program” spending you mentioned is dominated by Social Security and Medicare, which have their own dedicated funding stream from payroll taxes. They don’t add to deficits the way other programs do.

The fact that you’re desperately trying to avoid: Your boy Trump has set all the records for deficit spending.

 

[bumpercars]

Bush: Bush has brought the deficit down to $170T just before the last mid-terms.

This is not true.

Here's a treasury department website discussing the deficit, with a chart of the deficit year by year: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/

The chart goes by fiscal year, so fiscal year 2001 ran from October 2000 to September 2001, and so on. In fiscal year 2001 (Clinton's last), we had a surplus.

Bush erased that surplus and raised the deficit to $1.42 trillion/year by his last year in office. I don't know where you're getting $170T for Bush's deficit; the highest deficit we've ever run was ~3T in 2020. For reference, the current total debt is ~37.64T.

Obama got the deficit back down to 0.67T by his last budget. Trump got it up to 2.77T his last year; we can blame COVID for some of that increase, but not all of it.

Most Democratic presidents in the past fifty years have decreased the deficit while in office; Biden was the only one with a higher deficit in his last fiscal year than in his first. Every Republican president in that time frame has made the deficit bigger.

 

[Wylie3]

China will pull in their markers and bankrupt the USA something Trump is very good at

 

[colddiesel]

When you owe X $1,000,000,000,000, X has a problem

That is a trite observation but X is not alone with the problem. Every single US. financial institution, pension funds, banks ,insurance companies etc hold far more in government securities in the aggregate than foreign governments. However, the major foreign governments should they decide to dump their holdings have the capacity to start a run which has the potential to impoverish America and its citizens.

Yet the politicians not only ignore the risk they worsen it by the day.

 

[OralAllOver]

Quite true, Cold. But let's dive a pinch deeper.

A sell-off gravely harms the sellers as value crashes. To a degree this incentivizes each to stay put (or invest more).

So where else to put $? Not even Chinese want China in control of their assets ideally.

Europe? Maybe. Low-tech.

BRIC's (other than China): Hell no

Here in the US we have a strong position. DON'T FUCK IT UP, MAGA. And tight leashes for Oligarchs

 

[RightField]

This is not true.

Here's a treasury department website discussing the deficit, with a chart of the deficit year by year: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/

The chart goes by fiscal year, so fiscal year 2001 ran from October 2000 to September 2001, and so on. In fiscal year 2001 (Clinton's last), we had a surplus.

Bush erased that surplus and raised the deficit to $1.42 trillion/year by his last year in office. I don't know where you're getting $170T for Bush's deficit; the highest deficit we've ever run was ~3T in 2020. For reference, the current total debt is ~37.64T.

Obama got the deficit back down to 0.67T by his last budget. Trump got it up to 2.77T his last year; we can blame COVID for some of that increase, but not all of it.

Most Democratic presidents in the past fifty years have decreased the deficit while in office; Biden was the only one with a higher deficit in his last fiscal year than in his first. Every Republican president in that time frame has made the deficit bigger.

If you look at your chart, the Bush 2 years start with a deficit (Clinton's big tax was slated to begin at the end of his term and then we had 9/11), but then it's driven down year after year down to ($.16) (I'd said $.17). Then Pelosi and Reid win Congress....and it skyrockets. Congress is where spending bills are written and Pelosi and Reid went on a spending spree. Bush should have shut down the Government in protest to keep spending in line, but didn't. With all the big spending, at the end of the year just before the elections, the market crashed and spending grew even faster. Democrats do the spending and then blame everyone else when the spending creates market disequilibrium.

 

[RightField]

The Republicans have never cut spending. They promise and lie and bluster. And increase spending.


You talk about soaring defense spending as a percentage of GDP, but not other spending. Why is that? Overall government spending has steadily fallen as a percentage of GDP.

And the “social program” spending you mentioned is dominated by Social Security and Medicare, which have their own dedicated funding stream from payroll taxes. They don’t add to deficits the way other programs do.

The fact that you’re desperately trying to avoid: Your boy Trump has set all the records for deficit spending.

Many of our spending programs are "programmed" and virtually all of them have been put into place by Dems. Welfare, for example, is "programmed" in that if you qualify, you get the benefits whether it was budgeted or not. Social spending has gone from 12% of federal spending in the 60's to over 70% now. That is all Dem spending.

 

[bumpercars]

If you look at your chart, the Bush 2 years start with a deficit (Clinton's big tax was slated to begin at the end of his term and then we had 9/11), but then it's driven down year after year down to ($.16) (I'd said $.17).

You said 170T, not 170B.

Then Pelosi and Reid win Congress....and it skyrockets. Congress is where spending bills are written and Pelosi and Reid went on a spending spree. Bush should have shut down the Government in protest to keep spending in line, but didn't. With all the big spending, at the end of the year just before the elections, the market crashed and spending grew even faster. Democrats do the spending and then blame everyone else when the spending creates market disequilibrium.

First off, the president has a veto and can negotiate with Congress. Don't make them out to be helpless.

Second, the great recession had its roots in the housing bubble which had been building for years, exacerbated by loosened housing and banking regulation under Bush back when he had a Republican Congress. Economists were predicting a recession and warning of the housing crisis before the 2006 election. Much of the spending at the end of Bush's second term was to clean up a mess that grew under his watch. He approved that spending because the alternative was to let the economy crater. The high spending in Bush's last years didn't cause the problem; it was a means of addressing the problem.

 

[MajorRewrite]

Many of our spending programs are "programmed" and virtually all of them have been put into place by Dems. Welfare, for example, is "programmed" in that if you qualify, you get the benefits whether it was budgeted or not. Social spending has gone from 12% of federal spending in the 60's to over 70% now. That is all Dem spending.

You’re being ridiculous.

As I already said, the majority of the “social spending” you’re complaining about is Social Security and Medicare, which are funded by payroll taxes and don’t add to deficits like other spending that has no dedicated funding stream.

There have been plenty of times when the Republicans controlled Congress and the White House, but spending continued to increase.

A recent example is the Big Ugly Bill passed by the Republican Congress and Trump. It adds $3.4 trillion to the national debt over 10 years.

 

[bijedi]

Trump to Biden: After the big spike in COVID spending, a big part being wages paid to people in shut down northern cities, people were going back to work and the spending was declining quickly. When Biden was elected, he put the IRA in place which restored spending to near COVID levels even as spending on COVID continued to decline. We didn't need that spending and that, combined with the administration's new policies against fossil fuels (the DOE sec announced, "the era of fossil fuels is over!" and other environmental curbs reduced supply and sparked inflation.

The bolded is misinformation. US oil production did drop by 0.5% in 2021, but this was entirely due to the Covid pandemic (it dropped nearly 8% in 2020 at the end of the Trump1 administration). It then increased every year after that during the Biden administration. The primary cause of oil supply constraints was the deal Trump negotiated with OPEC+ to lower overall production by nearly 10 billion barrels per day through the April 2022. This deal was made at the behest of US oil producers as the price of oil had dropped significantly below the level they needed to break even. And despite the Trump2 administration's claims, US oil production increased less in 2025 than it did in 2024.