Phraseology Tidbits

[sr71plt]

News to me there ever was a difference

Traditionally, the phrase "excuse me" was used for minor offenses and the phrase "pardon me" was reserved for more serious situations requiring a more explicit apology.

 

[sr71plt]

Not a way to get drunk off pizza

A Margherita pizza (often unhelpfully named Margarita by some pizzarias) was not invented to cover getting drunk and serving a pizza fix simultaneously. It was a pizza topping (reportedly using cheese for the first time in the concoction--mozzarella) named for the queen of Savoy, Italy, in the late nineteenth century.

 

[sr71plt]

So, there!

Lobster Newburg started life in 1867 as Lobster Wenberg in Delmonico's restaurant in New York City, when sea captain Ben Wenberg demonstrated it at the restaurant. Subsequently, Captain Wenberg demonstrated how he could get drunk and cause a brawl in the restaurant, and he and his recipe were tossed out. But patrons wanted the dish back, if not the captain, so Delmonico's switched the "n" with the "w" in the menu and started serving it again.

 

[lance gt]

To mark the ending this week of the Tom Tom Founders Music Festival (that would be Thomas Jefferson) in Central Virginia this weekend, the phrase "tom-tom," being a form of drum--or, more precisely, two joined drums--doesn't come from either the Caribbean or Africa, as one might suppose. It's a bastardization of the Indian (as in the country India) timpani instrument, the tam-tam.

The tom tom wasn't a bastardization, but a confusion with that instrument. I found this wikipedia file on it. It is more Asian/ American Indian in origin. I see no reference to Jefferson as the beginnings of the name tom tom, but a British term used for a child's toy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom-tom_drum

 

[lance gt]

Traditionally, the phrase "excuse me" was used for minor offenses and the phrase "pardon me" was reserved for more serious situations requiring a more explicit apology.

I've heard 'excuse me' was used before committing an offence of any kind, while 'pardon me' was used after doing one, hence being pardoned for ones crimes and excused before any offence was done to someone. eg. "Excuse me, may I go ahead?"

 

[sr71plt]

Takethatgood-bye!

The phrase "parting shot" flipped up elsewhere in the forum today. Some usage purists insist that this is a bastardization of "Parthian shot," which was a Parthian military maneuver, where they went into seeming retreat on horseback, and when the enemy came after them, they wheeled and skewered them with a volley of arrows.

Some think "parting shot" has crept into the language because "Parthian shot" just couldn't hold its own and was only insisted on by the usage snobs. But the joke may be on the usage snobs, as "parting shot" may have been in use as a "one last shot before I leave" phrase since 1818 (recorded by a British navy surgeon), with "Parthian shot" only showing up with that meaning in 1932 (brought to bear by yet another Brit on a hunting trip to India).

 

[sr71plt]

Time out for a screamer

An exclamation mark, or point, is also known as a screamer, a gasper, a startler--and it was once called a note of admiration; it comes from the Latin io, "exclamation of joy," and was created by stacking the i above the o.

 

[sr71plt]

Not your local trash heap

The phrase "down in the dumps" traces back to the sixteenth century and originally meant "a dazed or absent-minded state." Now it seems to be used more to depict a moody, sad emotion.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Traditionally, the phrase "excuse me" was used for minor offenses and the phrase "pardon me" was reserved for more serious situations requiring a more explicit apology.

Gobbledegook. 'Excuse me' was, and is, an expression to allow an intervention in a conversation or activity - witness the noun for a dance, the 'excuse me' - and has no relation to 'pardon me', which is a throwback to papal pardons. 'Excuse me' is not an apology but the politesse of interreaction.

 

[lance gt]

Gobbledegook. 'Excuse me' was, and is, an expression to allow an intervention in a conversation or activity - witness the noun for a dance, the 'excuse me' - and has no relation to 'pardon me', which is a throwback to papal pardons. 'Excuse me' is not an apology but the politesse of interreaction.

That's what I heard too. "May I be excused?", was asking for a permission to interupt a situation, whereas, "Oh, pardon me, I seem to have stepped on your toes." was used after committing an offence.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

That's what I heard too. "May I be excused?", was asking for a permission to interupt a situation, whereas, "Oh, pardon me, I seem to have stepped on your toes." was used after committing an offence.

Quite. At school we had to say, 'can I be excused' if we wanted the rest room, which is miles away from any apology. Excuse me has never had a connotation of apology.

 

[lance gt]

Quite. At school we had to say, 'can I be excused' if we wanted the rest room, which is miles away from any apology. Excuse me has never had a connotation of apology.

Now to be anal, but it's MAY I be excused. That was another misnomer frequently used. Of course you can, but will I allow you to, is the answer. May gives the power of decision to the person asked.

 

[sr71plt]

Not that kind of box

The earliest use for the term "jack-in-the-box" was back in 1570, when it was used for a thief who took boxes full of money and left empty ones. The toy version goes back to 1702.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Now to be anal, but it's MAY I be excused. That was another misnomer frequently used. Of course you can, but will I allow you to, is the answer. May gives the power of decision to the person asked.

You're quite right, but in junior school the teachers were not good enough to understand the difference betwen 'can I' and 'may I'. As sr mistakenly says, 'excuse me'.

A theory as to the origin of the jack-in-the-box is that it comes from the 13th century English prelate Sir John Schorne, who is often pictured holding a boot with a devil in it. According to folklore, he once cast the devil into a boot to protect the village of North Marston in Buckinghamshire. This theory may explain why in French, a jack-in-the-box is called a "diable en boîte" (literally "boxed devil").

Again -as so often - sr purports to know something that is complete nonsense. Anyone who takes him seriously is barking mad.

 

[sr71plt]

Once again, one wonders what part of "these snippets are being taken from Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology, and that the source observations of others are welcome" that Elfin chooses not to understand.

Not that Elfin actually gives sources for her observations. (And, as we have found in the past, she has a habit of just making them up.)

 

[elfin_odalisque]

Once again, one wonders what part of "these snippets are being taken from Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology, and that the source observations of others are welcome" that Elfin chooses not to understand.

Not that Elfin actually gives sources for her observations. (And, as we have found in the past, she has a habit of just making them up.)

Rubbish. Again you prefer vituperation to honest debate and, as usual, display your unattractive bullying persona.

Well, no, actually. You blithely post stuff that, to say the least, is questionable and expect us to swallow the unsupported rationale.

I can give sources but you prefer to rely on a book that has no provenance and little evidence of any research. Somewhat in keeping with your arrogant chutzpah on these forums.

 

[sr71plt]

Easy streeting

To ride the "gravy train," started popping up in the late nineteenth century. It is used to depict securing an ongoing situation that provides good pay or other benefits with little labor or trouble. The equivalent of "living on Easy Street," the timing placement is the result of the theory that it originated among hoboes and other vagabonds who hopped trains as a way of life.

Kipfer doesn't have an entry for the term "easy street." One source, the Weird Facts website ( http://www.weirdfacts.com/fun-facts-a-stuff/3131-words-and-phrases-a-h.html#E), suggests an origin in a 1902 novel, It's Up to You, in which a wealthy character "could walk up and down Easy Street."


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified. If you are here just to rag on me, you are welcome to get stuffed.

 

[palisa]

http://mostlynf.wordpress.com/2008/12/04/phraseology-barbara-ann-kipfer/

 

[sr71plt]

I pretty much agree with that review. I find a lot lacking in the Kipfer book. But, again, what part of "these are conversation [not abusive attacking] starters" don't some posters want to get? (Including you, perhaps?)

I throw the phrase out with one or more source's comment on it--never something I've either made up for am trying to sell. You are invited to comment on it--preferably with sourcing. So, why not do that rather than backbiting? I know, I know, backbiting is so much more fun.

 

[_Lynn_]

Rubbish. Again you prefer vituperation to honest debate and, as usual, display your unattractive bullying persona.

Well, no, actually. You blithely post stuff that, to say the least, is questionable and expect us to swallow the unsupported rationale.

I can give sources but you prefer to rely on a book that has no provenance and little evidence of any research. Somewhat in keeping with your arrogant chutzpah on these forums.

SR isn't telling anyone the book is gospel. He's just posting interesting tidbits.

If you don't like his source, fine. Give us your own. Add educational posts to the thread. Or ignore the entire thread and don't post on it again.

 

[sr71plt]

Charge!

The term "credit card" has only been in vogue since 1952. The term was first used to mean a traveler's check in the late nineteenth century. The first actual cards were referred to as "shopper's plates" and then "charge cards" before becoming credit cards.


These tidbits are mainly based on Barbara Ann Kipfer's book, Phraseology. Where other sources are used, they will be given. Observations from other sources are quite welcome, preferably with the source identified.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

SR isn't telling anyone the book is gospel. He's just posting interesting tidbits.

If you don't like his source, fine. Give us your own. Add educational posts to the thread. Or ignore the entire thread and don't post on it again.

I take your point, Lynn, but I have a small problem.

sr has held himself out for eons as the holder of the commandments of the English language - generally pretty good - but now wants to do what we unscrupulous commercial types call 'passing off' where he quotes an unverified book as justification for fact.

His knowledge of editing and the CMS is beyond parallel, but trying to transfer that to omniscience in regard of expressions is a step too far.

I would post with references but sr has harangued me for no reason in the past so that I don't believe it would start a serious debate. He has a red mist when I call him up. He justs insults, not debates.

 

[sr71plt]

sr has held himself out for eons as the holder of the commandments of the English language

This premise being false (most of the time I just cite some authority on an issue), everything that flows from it is false as well.

When Elfin doesn't cite sources, it's because she's the only source. And I think you can figure Elfin out just be reading her posts.

 

[sr71plt]

No fake Joneses

The Joneses of "keeping up with the Joneses" fame were real. They lived in the Long Island neighborhood of cartoonist Arthur Mamand, who used experiences with them in his early twentieth-century cartoons.

 

[elfin_odalisque]

A Margherita pizza (often unhelpfully named Margarita by some pizzarias) was not invented to cover getting drunk and serving a pizza fix simultaneously. It was a pizza topping (reportedly using cheese for the first time in the concoction--mozzarella) named for the queen of Savoy, Italy, in the late nineteenth century.

Just a couple of niggles. If you want to be pernickety about spelling, may I point out it was Marghereta (Italian for daisy) and the poor man's food is served in pizzerias.

Just a point, she was not the Queen of Savoy but the Queen consort and the tribute only had cheese because the intention of the commoners was to give a replication of the Italian flag.